Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Hi there. I just started building a Flair Puppeteer. Right off the bat I ran into an issue. When you build the tank box there are built in right and down thrust angles (even the plans say that's why the front of the box is angled). But when you build the fuselage frame there is no angle to the front where the firewall mounts. What is the proper assembly sequence. Do you glue the tank box to the fire wall, then install the assembly and sand the front of the fuselage to match the angles? This would be a pain. Or are the angles on the tank box for another purpose? The plans are not clear on this.

Thanks

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I have one that is about seven years old. I just looked at the front end. I can't tell for sure, but it appears that the firewall is 90 deg. to centerline of the fuselage. I think it is the wooden motor mounts that have offset built into them. In other words, the prop is not parallel to the front of the cowl. Thrust washer is over 1/2 inch out from cowl on mine. A Super tigre 40 w/pitts muffler hauls it with plenty of zip.

But it has been too long ago for me to remember how this was done, please check yours carefully!

To avoid adding nose weight, I moved the servos, radio and battery to just behind the firewall. Even the ail. servos were moved to just behind the leading edge of the wing. All up weight is 6 lb, 6 oz. Wing loading is 10.5 oz/ sq ft !

I will say that this has been a great airplane. They got the aerodynamics right on this one. It is possibly the sweetest flying plane I've flown. And the little children love it!

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I saw a friends Puppeteer and fell in love. It's got the right look and it's the right size for my needs. I have two motor choices, a Magnum 52 four stroke or a Saito 72 four stroke. I emailed Flair and hope to get a response from them on the thrust angle question. The back of the firewall is recessed to accept the tank box but it won't mate up unless the front of the fuselage is heavliy modified. I plan to put two alieron servos out in the wings. Other than that I plan to build per the directions.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I think it's coming back to me now.

The firewall is 90* to the fuse. The tank box and wooden beam motor mounts attach to the fire wall at the angle dictated by the tank box, which gives the thrust offset. No modifications to the front of the fuse are necessary. I remember that much!

Always kinda wanted to put a four stroke in mine. But it flys so well with the ST 40 that I've resisted the temptation.

Covered it with linen colored Solartex. No wrinkles after seven years!

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I am going to use Koverall or some type of fabric. Just haven't decided yet. As far as the tank box. If I mount the fire wall flat to the front of the fuselage the two square cut outs in the fuselage former and the firewall won't allow the box to butt flat againt the back of the firewall. The two cut outs are inline with each other. I just checked the plans and I did mount them in the proper orientation. I'm still confused. I am going to move the wings for awhile. I think I am going to go with a off the shelf nylon motor mount (Sig) instead of the wooded engine rails anyway.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Now I'm confused too. I thought the cutouts in the formers were such that the tank box came out flush with the firewall.

Sorry I couldn't help.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

If the front of the tank box was square it would. The angles built into the front of the box won't allow it to fit up against the back of the fire wall. I'll try to take some pictures tonight.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I dug out my plans, cause now I'm curious about this.

The firewall is laminated from 14/13. The cutout is off center a good bit to the right. The next is former 5/6 and it has the tankbox cutout also offset to the right.

The instructions here say "ensure that the assembly is handed correctly". I think that is the funny Brit way of saying make sure you get the right handed side of the formers on the right hand side etc.

So you might want to check former 5/6 to make sure it is not in backwards. I once built two left handed wings on a Midwest Stearman, so don't feel too bad if it's backwards.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I think I have it. I needed to get the fire wall glued on before I was able to really see how it lined up. Sorry for the alarm. One of these days I will learn to trust the directions. If you have any other tips I would love to hear them. Do you have any pictures of you Pup?

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Here is an attempt to send a picture of the Pup.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Looks great. What did you cover it with? the wings look like fabric. I had to do quite a bit of cutting in to the fire wall to ge the four stroke close to the firewall to hub distance the instructions suggest. I will still have to extend the attachment points of the cowl 1/2" to make it work.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

It is covered just behind the cowl with alum. Monocoat. Turtledeck is green Monocoat. The rest is linen colored Solartex.

I didn't put any sealer on the Solartex, so some of it has gotten a bit grimy over the years. Guess you could call it the "dirty linen" look. Still looks real good when it's flying with the sun or bright sky behind it. All the structure shows through.

Yep, that's the trouble with four strokes. They are usually too long. That's the only thing wrong with them though!

Well, there ain't no ARF like this one. When people ask, I tell them "you glue a bunch of sticks together and carve an airplane out of it!"

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

It builds well. (now that I have learn to trust the instructions). Mounting the four stroke wasn't too bad but it deffinetly was easier to do before the front of the fues was sheeted. I also installed the thortle push rod system before I closed up the front end. Did you install the alerion push rod/ belcrank system Flair supplies? I plan on installing seperate servos outboard in the wings. Did you install the pull pull system they suggest or go with the standard push rod system? I am leaning towared the standard push rod system. I installed a Magnum 52 four stroke. I hope it's enough engine. If not Magnum makes a 61 that the same size. All the reviews I have been able to read say the 52 should be plenty. I just emailed OS and told them they should make a four stroke that has the carb out the side of the engine (opposite the muffler) instead of the back. Most of my planes have plenty of side room in the cowl. The supplied fuel tank is a tight fit in the tank box leaving no room for padding. Was yours that way?

And the most important question, how does she fly??

Thanks

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I used separate ail. servos. You can see where they are in the picture. They are mounted ahead of the CG.

I did everything I could think of to keep weight out of the tail. Ele and Rud servos and rec and batt are under the fuel tank. You can see the bottom hatch in the picture.

Maybe the pull pull idea is recent. Don't remember it in my instructions. Or maybe I didn't know what it was at the time. In any case, it sounds like an excellent way to keep even more weight out of the tail.

Mine balanced perfectly with an ST 40 in front-- no nose weight needed. The tank has worked fine.

Seems like the Mag 52 should be enough power. Mine is quite zippy with the ST 40 and APC 12.25/3.75 prop.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea about putting the carb opposite the muffler on 4 strokes!

How does it fly? It is superb-- after many, many planes, I still think it is one of the best pieces of aerodynamic desigh work I have ever flown.

Will it hover like a DP Ultimate and a YS 110? No. But I swear overall it is a much better flyer.

P.S . I spent the best part of a day with an incidence meter lining up the wings. I think this is the most crucial part of the building process.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I don't remeber seeing incidence inforamtion on my plans. Do you remember what angles you used.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

The incidence for the bottom wing is determined by the fuse cutout. I think I set my top wing to exactly the incidence of the bottom wing, or maybe 1 degree neg. (I.E. angled a little down at the leading edge.

It is a trick to get the wings parallel in two planes and at a constant and correct incidence at the same time. My Robart incidence meter was invaluable. Two of them would have been better.

Somehow I seem to remember that a tiny bit of neg incidence in the top wing is desireable in a biplane.

I have a 30 sized Tiger Moth that I could not get the incidence set correctly, and sure enough, it flies a little squirrly.

The Sopwith flies anything but squirrly.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I have a book on setting up biplanes and it say 1 or 2 degrees negitive on the top wing is the way to go. I have a Sterling PT17 that has -2 and it flys pretty well. I have a great planes laser incidence meter and it has more than paid for itself. So you set the horizontal stab and lower wing per the plans and the top wing 0 to -1.

Thanks you've been a big help.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Good luck and I hope you enjoy the Pup as much as I have. It's worth the effort. As the instructions say " all in good time, it will be finished" or something like that. Sticks in my head, even after seven years.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Did you use the Flair decal set? How well did they take to the Solartex? Did you install a pilot and machine gun?

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Yes, used the decal set and the wheels. Expensive but I thought it was worth it. The bucks definetly start to add up with this plane.

The decals stick well to the Solartex, but about a third of the red 'A' on the side has been ripped off by the wind over the years.

Didn't use a pilot or machine gun. It needs something in front of the cockpit though. I didn't know what the real windscreen looks like. It is not shown on the plans. So I put a little wrap around windshield on it. Not scale. Maybe I'll put a proper windshield and a machine gun on it someday.

One fun thing about this plane is it's always a crowd pleaser. The kids and spectators at the field associate it wth Snoopy's Sopwith Camel.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

I've got a pup still in the box that I was planning on powering with a Saito 60 twin (I think it'll just about fit in the cowl, although it might take a cut out or to get to let the glow plugs. Hopefully the weight of this engine wil mean I won't need to add any extra weight, which seems to be a common problem with the short-nosed "Scout" range.

From what you're saying, the firewall is flat, with the thrust dictated by the angles of the engine bearers. The Saito has a rear mounting frame, for bolting straight onto a firewall - would I (a) be able to add the require right/down thrust by packing the engine mount with washers/shims, and (b) is there enough strength in the firewall alone to support the weight and pull of the engine.

Thanks

John

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

You may have a problem with the cut out in the center of the fire wall for the tank box. You may be better off making a new fire wall without the hole. Then you could bolt right to it and then shim for the proper thrust angles. I am going to take some pictures of what I have to do to mine to get the four stroke to fit. I'll post them tommorow. They tell me that the 52 four stroke I am planning to use is plenty so you 60 twin should be OK.



Art

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

Thanks, looking forward to your pictures.

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

For what its worth the Pup works surprisingly well on floats. Flair offers pre-built floats that only need finishing and a little soldering to attach.

Attached (I hope) is an in-flight picture of my pup. Covering is Nelson Lite-fab and the paint is Nelson also. Power is a PAW 60 diesel with a 15-8 prop.

Enjoy your Pup it will be a great flyer!!

Randy

RE: Flair Puppeteer Trust Angles
 

The rigging looks great on your Pup. I should do that for mine someday!

I have an MVVS 91 with a diesel head swinging a 3 bladed Graupner 15/8 on a Top Flite Spitfire. The big prop looks almost scale size. It sounds right and flies it fine.