AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I don't get it. It seems like 8 out 10 of the guys in my club fly ARF"s that all look the same. I ask them why, and they give me every excuse in the book. Are they Intimidated by kits or just to lazy. The most common excuse is not enough time. Bull, what do they do in the winter when they would normally be flying. That is your time and in the spring you would have one or two planes that did't look like everyone else's!!! If this trend of ARF's continues there won't be any kits for us die-hard kit builders to build. Tell me your reason for not building![:o]

Gibbs

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I do both. BUT, with the price of a kit nearly the same as an already finished ARF, it ends up costing MORE to build. I can't build and cover/paint for less than the ARF prices anymore.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

It's almost at that point now. One of the major RC online dealers catalog only had two or three "Kits". All the rest was ARF and most of them were electric.

One local hobby shop doesn't even sell balsa. That's like a grocery store not selling bread. It just isn't right.

There are a couple companies that do laser cutting that will build a kit from a set of plans. You would have to pull together all the stuff like cowls, landing gear, linkages and such. Humm come to think of it about what I had to do with the first and last ARF I bought.

What I like about a kit or even a scratch build from plans is that you know what is under the covering. And you know how it was put together. And, if something is screwed up during the build, you know who to blame. :) You also usually find it before the first flight and can correct it before having to remove all the covering and dig into the wood.

One ARF was enough. Never again.

Don

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I have never had an ARF, and have only built 2 kits.........but I can see where some would want to go with the ARF. I build AND fly during the spring and summer. In the fall and winter you will find me in the great wilderness hunting ducks, geese, pheasants, deer, turkey, dove, etc.... As much as I love building and flying, it will never pull me away from the marsh/woods. Out there is where I feel like I belong. Other people who have winter hobbies probably fly ARF's to give them time for their other activities. I enjoy kit building, but when the leaves begin to change color, I am either working, sleeping, or hunting. To each their own.:D

Later,
Hunter Sargent

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

In A club with about 100 members I'm the only builder left. Reason??? I don't know, I have heard it all. Time?? These guys are mostly retired, go figure. Room, OK, not everyone has the room or an understanding partner so I can buy that one. MONEY, what A great reason, I buy my plans and wood then go from there but when I finish it cost me more to build A plane I can buy an ARF for. Today the better ARFs are as good as you can build. {{I used to argue against that point}} Today someone like Wild Hare can sell the same plane that I would build and in the long run it comes out as well built and cheaper.
Still when I build something I know every part that went into the plane and come out with something that I care about, with an ARF who cares if it hits the ground too much, you can have another one in the air in A week, it would be almost another year to get one of my own planes in the air.
I get more pleasure flying something I make myself but really, the ARF is now A great way for people to get into the hobby and most of them you get A lot for your money, that was MOST, there is still A lot of junk out there.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I have several ARF planes two of them had to be almost rebuilt before flying,and the others only needed a little work,but this winter im building two kits because i want planes that are different and after the ARF planes its kinda taught me what i want and what shoulda been done,but i still will have both.Yes it is time consuming and a little more expense but the results seem to outway cost except if i went to sell them i would get only as much as an ARF brings and have seen on RCU that that seems to be the case for 40 to 60 size planes.I built kits years ago before the ARF craze and flew several of them and others were just to pretty to fly. To me building is more of a pride in construction thing and id rather crash an ARF over something i took hrs to build.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I really want to build a kit but when i do i want to be able to devote time to it on a regular basis. I have a 2 year old daughter, and an 11 year old son. When the snow flies hockey starts and i am chasing my son all over Saskatchewan to different hockey rinks. Right now it would take me all winter to build a Sig Somethin Extra, and truth be told I DON"T HAVE THE TIME!!! so i build ARF's that i can have ready in a couple of evenings work. I love to fly and am not willing to wait intil i have the time to build a kit to fly. This being said once Josh is older and out of the house then i will start building kits. i currently have a goldberg Super chip an LT-40 to cut my teeth on and a SSE all in kit form that i am just waiting to get at. Also i don't have room right now to devote a room to myself and my daughter is everywhere all the time so that is another reason. I like kits better but for these reason i fly arfs right now. One thing i do is recover the arf's in a scheme that i like so i can at least be a little different.

Flyboy76

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Not all of us live in the icy north.;) Time is an issue. Also, try and build a plane like the Composite-ARF line yourself!? I actually do build kits, but these are for nostalgia only. Like the GP Super Sportster, Ace Big Bingo etc. The quality of kits (downwards) and the quality of ARF's (upwards) makes the choice towards ARF's easier as well.

Safe Flying!

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I don't have an excuse (I LIKE building and often scratch build over even a kit build), but I see nothing new here. The time one really irks me, because as it was noted elsewhere, people MAKE time for what they value. I have two small kids, work a day job and run a consulting company on the side. I also would rather eat tinfoil than have an ARF in my hangar, so I make time to build. So don't use it as an excuse. I think what we have is 2 camps - builders and fliers. I am definitely a builder and would often rather spend time building than flying. I get more satisfaction out of it a lot of days. Not everyone is the same, however. The fliers would rather be flying than building. In years past, that wasn't really possible. But with the ARF's around now, it works OK if you don't care what you fly. To the builders, having the same plane as the next guy is abhorrent. If what you want to do is rip around the sky, then an ARF is the better deal. It's not that one is better than the other, they are just different choices. But the ARF's are making a big dent in the kits available, which causes issues for the builders out there.


Mark

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I think ARF's tend to feed on themselves. What I mean is this, if a bunch of guys are learning to build, then they compare war stories about the kits they are working on and they show one another all of the goofs they made. Building is a pretty humbling thing.

But if everyone has nothing but perfect ARF's, then they think thier kit built plane must be perfect. They never see others going through the growth pains of becoming a good builder. That must be intimidating. Show up with your first build, a goof here and a goof there ? Not many folks are capable of admitting that about themselves. Hey, I'm not perfect and neither is my plane. Point and click on the latest Hangar 9 model and you ARE a perfect human being.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Hey Guys,
I love the feedback. Maybe if we keep building and talk our other club members to at least just try one, then maybe the companies will start to produce more kits. If two or three club members in every club around the world built one kit it would be astronomical. ARF's have there place but I just don't care for them. Most need to have added glue to joints to stengthen them and I have seen alot of bad covering and trim jobs, where the trim peels off when fuel gets to it. Also some have very poor hardware packages. I don't own one but I hear the same guys that don't build whinning about their ARF's. That's where I get some of my info like joints and hardware, the rest I can see at the flying field! Yuk;)

Gibbs

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

What difference does it really make to anyone what someone else flys. Who cares if you build your airplanes from a kit or an assembled "ARF". At this point in my life, I'll choose an ARF over a kit any day. Why? simply because I'm tired of building, designing, and having to swap out half the wood in many of the kit's being sold today. In 47 years of being involved in this hobby, I've seen most of it come and go. Let me just say this. The three most important things, that have been introduced into this hobby since I've been RC'ing is.......1: Monokote. 2: CA adhesive. 3: The advent of the ARF. I'm not saying that a GOOD Builder can't produce a kit that is truly a masterpiece and far better than any ARF sold today. However, I am saying that if you go to any large club field on any weekend and line up all of the planes there, 75% of them would be "ARF'S". And it's a very well known fact that just because a plane is built from a kit, doesn't necessarily make it better than an ARF. In fact, it's very rare when you see a plane built from a kit that looks as good as an ARF. For some strange reason it seems like those that build kit's, seem to think they'er a special class of modeler someone that has no desire to build from a kit. Big deal........so you built a kit. Was it your design? did you draw up the plans? Did you decide what size balsa you would need for the different components? What's so special about following someone else's directions and building something that you didn't designe? If you would really like to look down your nose at those that like to fly ARF',S , Try scratch building an airplane. In other words......design the aircraft, draw up the planes, and then build it, test fly it to prove that it's airworthy.......... Then you can feel like you've accomplished something that is worth bragging about. These remarks are not directed toward any one in particular. They are only my thoughts, because in my oppinion.......If you didn't scratch built the plane, and all you've done is assemble someone else's kit. In my opinion......all you've really done is assemble another "ARF," that just needs a little more assembly than some of the other 90% ARF'S Bob

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Bob.
I do design and scratch build or copy a real full scale plane from pictures also. I am also a Private Pilot and this helps me to indeed select the correct ply or balsa and I cut my own parts. I know many planes by flying them. I don't think Im better than anyone else but newbies should have a larger assortment of kits to choose from!

Gibbs

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

WHY?

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Not many folks are capable of even recognizing a "GOOF" when the see one.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I think what's important is that people realize some others might not want to build a kit. Big deal. Why should they have to give you ANY reason?

Like as what was mentioned, people make time for something they love. Maybe they just love other things MORE than RC building. I know, they must be crazy right? :eek: "OH THATS NO EXCUSE" Well, maybe it is. Maybe between the kids, the wife, the work, the social get togethers, the other hobbies you might have, and other time sucking responsibilities people have in order to make time to build they would have to give up something else and they don't want to. "I don't have the time to build" is as valid as anything else.

Now, there are less kits out there because of this. Sure, a shame. Time to buy a balsa stripper. At least now you won't have to have those scratch builders looking down on you or making fun of your plane because it looks like everyone elses :D

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

WHAT is this obsession that something is wrong with some wanting to fly ARFs?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????? I have both, but I will tell you when it is flying season, you can put together an ARF and go flying in a few days it makes a big difference. I have some projects that I am taking my time with because I want them detailed and/or to scale. Sometimes I just can't turn a great deal down, for instance I just got a Hobbico Sukhoi SU-31 for $158.00. What a nice plane for a great price. I also have a TF GS Corsair kit that I am building.
As far as " excuses " for flying an ARF, no one needs any excuses for flying something that they like. Who are you to look down you nose at them????? Get over it and be glad that you have some buddies to fly with. I am sure some of them hate to see you coming because you give them crap for have a plane that they didn't spend 1000 hours of meticulous time to build. Leave them alone about their planes and just be glad they put up with you.

One thing you have to consider, gas is $3.00 or more a gallon, milk is $3.00 or more a gallon, etc., etc., etc........and on and on. Hey maybe they just wanted to be able to afford to fly.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

guess that I may be a little different. am not inetrested in Kits or ARF's. my thing is to find a 3 vu of some antique or one of a kind aircraft of years gone by and enlarge it to my size and proceed to draw my own plans and then start useing the accumulated stash of Balsa. then its Show and Tell. most just hang from the ceiling, some do fly, at least once. just my way of getting satisfied. its also helped a few other fellows get interested in Scratch building. dick

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Dick I am a craftsman myself so I appeciate that kind of attention to detail. I marvel at planes that guys build from scratch. I just don't get why people get bent out of shape over some fellows that want to fly and own ARFs.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

I like to build and I've scene 1 or 2 arfs that i would like to Owen but for the most part arfs arnt for me with the exception of war birds I never make plane look like anther weather it be a covering or paint scheme or Small modifications. plus i have a some what limited income so its easer for to by a kit then pick up the rest as needed than to fork out a big lump sum for a arf.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

There is nothing wrong with those folks who prefer to buy and fly only ARF's. However I do wish more people would retake an interest in kit building just for the simple fact that the demand for kits is falling, which means less options as far as kits go. Some folks just want to fly, and have no desire to build, and that is fine. Amish folk probally wonder why us nonAmish folk don't build our own funiture? Well, the Amish make some nice stuff, but my new store bought ARF couch sits and sleeps pretty darn good. It all boils down to just how involved you want to get into your hobby. I really enjoy putting a good airplane kit together, but I don't go as far as to scratch build my own Planes. You do what makes the hobby fun and exciting for you, and let the other guy do what makes the hobby fun for him. Trying to convince somebody to build something that they have no interest in would make the hobby into something more like a job to them, and where would be the fun in that? Build if you like to build, and buy ARF's if you like to buy ARF's. Do what keeps the hobby fun for you! I prefer kits, but it is fine if you don't! We will still have fun flying together!

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Required reading. This is what it's all about. Someone finding their own nitch, and going for it. Just Willing to put a lot of thought and effort into an idea, and being satisfied with the rusults. I'll bet ckangaroo70 doesn't have to have others approval for what he's doing. Bob

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Bob

You are correct. I just do what I enjoy, and I am sure you do what you enjoy as well. We don't all have to be into the same things. I like to see new people build kits, but by there choice, and not because I told them they need to. We all enjoy Model Aviation in general, and that gives us plenty to talk about. I 've seen highly detailed scale Planes that I could not even begin to match, and I have seen guys flying some pretty outstanding manuevers with ARF's that I could not match either. Free Flight guys probally wonder why not many build free flight models any more? Rubber Band power guys probally wonder how come everybody don't still build Rubber Band power planes? Soaring guys probally wonder why we are flying our noisey Planes when we could be soaring? Scale guys are probally wondering why I built a Hog Bipe when it is not even a scale Bi-Plane? I personally appreciate all forms of Model Aviation, but it is just not possible for very many people to be involved in every single aspect of this hobby. How many people in here are posting in every single forum on RCU Universe that pertains to aviation? You post in the forums that pertain to your interest mainly! You do what works best for you, and the next guy does what works best for him. There are plenty of people around who will appreciate the fact that you are just a fellow flyer who enjoys Model Aviation like they do regardless if you are a flying a scratch built, kit built, or an ARF. The number one rule in any hobby should always be to do what makes it fun for you. Me forcing my interest on to you or you forcing yours onto me would make us both unhappy hobbiest. The good thing is regardless of what we fly, we could fill a whole afternoon at the field with conversation regarding the hobby we both enjoy.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

Here are two photos of myself with 2 different Planes of mine. One is my Super Sportster 90/120 I just finished building from kit, and the other is a little China made ARF Pole Cat racer I bought. Both photos were taken taken right before each Plane took its maiden flight. Both days were fun and exciting. If I see a kit I would like to build, I buy it and build it. If I see an ARF I would like to have, I buy it and fly it. If you look in my Gallery you will see that some Planes I prefered to build, and some I prefered to buy allready built. For example, I prefered to buy the 1/4 scale GP Spacewalker as an ARF, but is also offered as a Sig Kit. I decided to build a Sig LT-40 instead of buying the ARF version. My ARF Sukhoi could have been a kit, but I decided on the ARF. My GP Extra 300 could have been an ARF, but I decided to build. I have built two Sportsters from kit, but have also owned the 40 size ARF Sportster. All my Planes could have very well been ARFs, or very well been kits. I just do what I feel like doing, and what I enjoy. Those reading in this post should do just what they want to do, and not feel pressured to do otherwise. I have blabbed long enough on this matter, but I just wanted to try and make a few good points.

RE: AFR'S WHY NOT KITS
 

ckangkroo70......You've said it all, and you've said it just the way it needed to be said. There is something in this hobby for everyone. There once was a time when I had to build from plans, anything I wanted to fly because that's the only way I could afford to fly. Now, in my later years, I can afford to fly what someone else builds. Which brings to mind...........The Ziroli, F4U Corsair that was built from "Zeroli" plans, and sold to me, Would it have been an "ARF," to me because it was already built? I say yes. I'm just about ready to begin a "Full Build" project as soon as the weather cools down a little. Not quite a Scratch Built, but close. It will be a 55% J3 Cub built from "BUSA" plans scaled up. 19' WS and 12' fuselage. est weight around 75 lb. See! there are time when you just have to build. But for the majority of other times, I'll take an ARF. Bob