Dwindling kit suppliers
 

I was very saddened when Jack Stafford models went out of business.
Tonight I was looking at Adrian Pages web site hoping he had the Newbee available. No he is not going out of business but his home page sure is sobering.
http://www.adrianpage.com/

Gentleman this sucks.
John

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

It is a sad sign of the times,
ARF's do have their place but they are killing kit manufacturing. I for one am getting more and more into plans/scratch building. Alot of the kits that I did want to build are already out of production.
Anthony

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Gahh!

I'm flying his 40 inch cub and absolutly loving it, meanwhile slowly building a second one with my girlfriend (we bought two at the same time). The thing is a 'gem' as another poster put it once. Just last night I was talking to my dad saying 'hey this guy makes killer kits, I think I want a Gee Bee'. Noticing all these modellers learning CAD even motivated me to get access to enough CAD to start doing (primitive, lemme tell ya) modelling.

I even printed out the 40 inch cub page and handed it out to the dudes at the field who saw it, hoping I'd have some company. The people I fly with seem to have been motivated by seeing my 'handbuilt huh?' kits and have purchased various kits and started building. But I guess it wasn't a page kit.

Ugh, what else can we do really though? Xbox doesn't require assembly, nor does it require understanding of programming languages. Where did the intelligent youth go?

Maybe if we had an 'association of kit developers' that charge yearly dues that buy and maintain a couple nice laser cutting setups. Perhaps members could pay a percentage of their revenue back to the association (figure what, 5%, 10%, maybe a max per kit?). This could make the most popular players pay the most, the weakest only pay their dues and keep working. Is this something we should talk to the AMA (or the CAA in Canada?) about? It almost seems like it falls under their umbrella, or at least close enough that could be done.

Its a bit discouraging, but there must be a solution.

/*
* Kyle
*/

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Yep. I've come to the conclusion that my next planes will probably be built from plans and the wood from BUSA and Lone Star. There just are too few kits of interest anymore.

Unfortunately, I don't know how stable RCM plans are (the website claims they are still up and available but the magazine is on the rocks. AMA Plans tells you the wingspan but doesn't show an image or give a description of the model! What earthly good is that? When I'm looking for a biplane I'd like to make sure it has two wings. You have to search the archives to find the article that (if your're lucky) is mentioned in the plans database.

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Its funny you bring up the AMA plans service, as that is kinda what I was thinking considering that is a worthwhile investment in plans. The lack of images and details (I mean come on, these planes have flown, right?) seems like it could use some help. I kinda envision the plans service as almost a wiki, so everyone can say 'oh by the way, its noted on rcu... here is a pic and a little about it'.

Maybe in time....

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Model Aviation had a photo & shrunken plan for the old 4-60, I was delighted to see. I had one, smashed it when I was pretty new. I think I'll buy the plans and build a new one.

Dave Olson

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

I'm working with a friend and a laser cutter to design a new kit.

It is a high wing sport plane similar to a Roadrunner . We're designing it to fly on the popular 20cc---26cc gasoline engines on the market today. It will have a generous wing area and we're shooting for about 7--10 pounds. It will have foam core wings and simple built up tail surfaces and fuse using traditional techniques. These kits will not come with any hardware because we feel that most kit builders like to purchase their own hardware to suit their individual tastes. If we did provide hardware in the kits, it would have to be very high quality, or it's not worth it. Leaving the hardware up to the builder keeps the kit cost down. The kits would come with aluminum landing gear.

We're planning to have about 10 or 12 of them cut for "prototypes" I'll build one and of course, my buddy will build one. We'll both be using 26cc engines. We need several guys to build them and do full reviews so that we can decide if there is enough interest to justify having about 100 made. We would supply the kits free of charge to experienced builder/members of RCU who have a track record of being good builders and giving honest reviews--pros and cons. We could possibly be talked into providing "loaner" engines to these builders if they don't already have a gas engine in this size.



Any interested builders should contact me via PM or email. ETA on the prototype kits is going to be sometime late spring or early summer of 2007.

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Charlie,

AMA has the plans set for the old PICA WACO YMF 1/5th scale. We (The WACO Brotherhood) are in the process of putting together the cut parts templates that we are making available for free. If you want the closest thing to a kit, have a look. You can find us in the Vintage and Antique Forum here on RCU. The parts are being developed, and you can see the templates by going to www.houseofmoy.com/waco/ Thought you might be interested.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

I predict that more of what the Waco brotherhood is doing will happen. Reviving tried and true classic designs. With pages added, that have missing templates on them, true builders (and aspiring builders) can satisfy that balsa dust craving. I got in on the Waco revival late but I can tell you there are some dedicated people working on it. I also purchased a Super Duallist 2/60. A similar project a few years back. Unfortunately my kit had some delivery damage so I havent really gotten around to it yet, but will in the future. I will be stocking up on kits and projects such as this to keep me busy in retirement.
Edwin

Waco Brother #28

Edit: My biggest concern is loosing access to plans services like the RCM collection. I realize it probably doesnt produce a lot of income, but would be nice if RCU could buy it. And I agree about the AMA collection, they have full timers. They should scan the pictures and include them. Unless its a scale plane, you dont always have an idea of what the plane will look like. Even if its scale, you dont always know how accurate it is or even if its squint scale.

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Charlie P.

I've been ordering all the RCM plans I think I even might be interested in building before RCM goes away. I got my last batch of 3 plans last week. At this point they seem to be taking between 3-5 weeks to arrive.

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Good idea. I've dropped in on that thread to follow progress. I've got a 1/5 size (+/-) on the table at the moment (messing around with a Phaeton 90 and trying to beat it into a sport-scale Curtiss) and I have been looking for a smaller biplane that's a Golden Era. I am considering a 1930 Fleet Biplane in a .40 size, but (I think) the AMA plans are for a beautiful but overly complicated build. I recall a whole bunch of 4-40 Bipes in our area that guys had bashed into every imaginable biplane. You don't see much of that going on now a days.

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Sending money to RCM for plans seems like little risk to me!

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Just use a credit card to pay. Then if nothing comes, you can go back on the card company to refund the payment. I ordered plans last fall and they came with no issues. Slow shipping, but no problems. I would not hesitate to order more if the mood struck me.


Mark

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

Actually, the plans service for RCM is totally seperate from the magazine. I've ordered plans from the plans service 4 times since the magazine went under with no problems at all. They were all shipping and delivered in a timely fashion.

Ken

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

That's what I was wondering (and hoped to hear). There is just no kit for a "laid back" .40 size biplane available with any of the character I am looking for. I have a .40 LA and a TT Pro-46 just sitting idle and that ain't right. I was going to get a Gee Bee Dreamer but it has been "temporarily unavailable" since September. RCM has a .40 "Hobo" that is an old 3-channel design that would be fun to modernize for ailerons and wash-out the huge dihedral. I like building kits that have zero fiberglass or plastic parts.

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"I was very saddened when Jack Stafford models went out of business."
Sign of the times. Funny guys like Balsa USA just keep on releasing new kits all the time. Maybe they know something that most kit manufactures don't...... like release stuff builders want to buy. There are still kit companies but the smart ones are doing stuff the ARF manufactures don't.

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Have You Ever Tried Scale Plans And Photo Service ?? They Have Some Really Nice Planes That They Sell Plans To.

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It's a shame to see a class guy like Adrian Page falling on hard times. His kits are great.

Maybe one of these days, the people who are flying ARFS now will get tired of flying something that looks like everybody else's and decide they want to do something different. Then the kit business may turn around. Until then, I'm laying in a supply of kits, plans and balsa and getting ready for the worst.

papermache

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

There are more people involved in flying R/C today then have ever been in the distant or even very recent past. This must mean that the ARF's popularity is a contributor to this fact. I'm here on Kit Building, so this should lead you to understand where my interests lie. I don't like the fact that ARFs are leading to the downfall of the kit! To pick one manufacturer and say "look how good they are doing" and feel this is the state of the industry, I feel is burying my head in the sand! The facts are kits are becoming less and less available and those for sale are demanding very high prices, even on the auction block.

I also think this ARF bubble will be short lived, as the people in the countries producing them start to demand more money for their hard work, as well they should! I have no idea when the bubble will burst, but, I'm sure it will. It's likely more and more kits will become less and less available, until that time comes. I see myself building from plans in the future, as the building part is what I get the most enjoyment from! As members of our local clubs, we should be attempting to get people to build and learn what great enjoyment there is in this part of the hobby!

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Charlie P, there was a 40 size bipe published by RCM called, as I recall, the Aeromeister (because it looked a lot like the Andrews Aeromaster). I bought the plans years ago and still haven't built it, but you might want to look into that one for your two 40 size engines.

Clair

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

It is easy to blame the popularity of ARF's on the down fall in kits. Sure, there is a big demand for them and no doubt, big money in it for the manufactures. But, I think there is another element involved. While demand for kits is shrinking, there is still definitely a market for them. The "big" players in the market are focusing all of their effort on the ARF's and totally ignoring the kit side of the business. They probably say, "Gee, why should we come out with new kits, when nobody is buying the ones that we already have." Well, that is just the point. Any plane, be it kit or ARF will build up in sale and then dwindle down. You constantly see ARFs going away as well. Why? Because they aren't selling anymore(among other reasons). They introduce new ones to replace them and excite the market. Unfortunately, they are not doing the same for kits. So, kits are also not selling well because the selection is stagnated. If Greatplanes, Sig and the others would introduce some new and exciting kits, I think they would find that the market is better than they think it is. But, the profit from that indeavor would probably not be as good as ARFs... and profit is what business is all about. Balsa USA, bless their souls, have not jumped on the ARF train yet and are releasing new kits all the time. From what I have seen, they don't appear to be suffering from lack of sales.

Mike

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

I think Huggins is on to something. If you really look at it, how many really NEW kits have people like SIG and Great Planes come out with in the last 5 or so years? SIG did their 1/5 scale Cub, and it's a GREAT kit. But most of the kits SIG has available have been around for a long time and are being produced with little or nothing in the way of improvements. NO WONDER nobody is buying them! If a car company kept putting out the same model year after year, would people still buy them? I don't think so (unless they were the ONLY thing available). So with all the shiny new ARFs coming on the market, no wonder people are buying them! Throw in a little "no muss, no fuss, in the air in an hour" marketing, and NOBODY is going to even look at a kit.

It will take a major effort on the part of the major manufacturers to help the kit market rebound. They need to revamp and repackage the older kits, bring on some new ones, and get their marketing gurus to start exhorting the virtues of building and all the pride and individuality that goes along with it.

Yes, people like BUSA are keeping the flame lit. There are other smaller manufacturers who are trying to do the same. Let's not forget them, and continue to support them as well.

papermache

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

But, when and if they get tired of flying ARF's what will they do? They have no building skills, and a tremendous number have made sure that they alienated the builders to the point that I'm not sure that anyone would help them learn. Most of these guys are not the least bit, "Handy", nor are they mechanicially inclined, and most have not a clue where or how to start. The plug and play generation had really been dumbing down, and I don't see it changing. I truly don't know what the answer is. I have offered to assist some of them in learning how to build, and have pretty much been told to not bother, they will buy ARF's or buy my built planes from me. I will burn them first. I used to hang a few at the LHS, and would sell them. Now I give them to those who build, or just keep them. I will never ever again sell a model to a non builder. There are matters of principle at stake here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Dwindling kit suppliers
 

One of the most heartening things I've read lately is a guy on the beginners forum who built a 24" free-flight stick-n-tissue Lancer as a practice build. That's probably the way a lot of us (older) fliers got our beginnings.

I've always been a little hesitant to go from plans alone, but I'm losing that fear. Really, what is there in a kit beyond the die cut or laser cut parts that makes it special? I was looking at the 1930 Fleet (56" wingspan) on the AMA site and other than the wing ribs (but, oh, does it have ribs: full ribs, half ribs, nose ribs, tail ribs, eeeee), there is nothing that requires a die cut part. Looks like a scaled up Guillows free flight biplane with stringers and frames.

Bill's WACO Brotherhood may be the wave of the furture. A niche filler - like the firms that make flintlock mechanisms for guys who want to build their own muzzleloading rifles.

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Hey Bill,

LMAO!:D. You shouldn't burn them first, though. Just charge the non-builders through the nose for the priviledge of owning a properly built, straight piece of art. Instead of a warped, low quality piece of mass produced junk. Principles, indeed. And there is nothing more satisfying than sticking someone who is unwilling to learn to do it themselves. Not unable, just unwilling... But I do understand your choice. It's like selling a child, and to an unappreciative buyer at that...

As for the kit producers, the stagnation of kits is very apparent to me. I was out of the hobby for a bit over 10 years. When I came back in last year, I was looking forward to seeing what new kits were around. And there weren't any! The kits I saw for sale were the same ones I saw 10 years previous. The only real changes in kits were the small niche market produced laser cut ones, like the 3D profiles and some others. Very disappointing to see for someone who gets ill at the thought of an ARF in his hangar... I have been holding up my end of the economy, buying a number of kits from the little guys like Paul Swany, OMP and Dan Hines. I need help, though, can't do it all myself....:D


Mark