RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Adrian Page does make some fine kits... too bad it looks like he's giving it up too!

and while not trying to create another maelstrom in this thread, if you're looking to save money in this hobby, learn how to build from plans. From what i've found, it's the cheapest way to put something in the air!

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Yeah.. been eyeballing those Ziroli plans for some time now :) Always wanted to build his Mustang or Zero :) Stuka would be even better yet.. NO RETRACTS!!!

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I guess it's natural for builders to have a bad attitude towards ARF assemblers. After all, the ARF guys are fueling the demise of the kit industry by purchasing ARFs in great numbers. There is no point in bashing our flying brothers (and occasional sister). Let's just share the air, enjoy a nice day at the field and then do our best to keep the kit companies going by buying kits and talking it up with our ARF colleagues.

Mike

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I guess I disagree. I have read all the post and I don't see many having "bad attitudes toward ARF assemblers." Arf's have there place in this hobby/sport but not for me. Try kit or scratch building and there's no comparison. 99% of the fun will always be the adventure of building. Has nothing to do with quality. I've said it before: If all the kits, plans and balsa wood suddenly disappeared I would take up golf.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Why do I build instead of purchasing an ARF? The reasons are I like to build, I like to build in modificaitons, and not that find the quality of an ARF lacking. I enjoy the challlenge and the sense of accomplishment from taking a bunch of pieces to a final product. I like to see my ideas work out and the plane have the look I was going for. I also enjoy taking a plane out to the field for the first time and showing it off. Yes that is mine, and yes I built it and yes I finished it. Thank you for the complement. I just don't feel I can attain that from an ARF and that is why I build.

I feel that if one just wants to fly an ARF is a great thing. I have nothing against that at all and here some day I may purchase and fly one becasue I am losing the time to build.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

well guys I really have heard the arguments from time to time, I used to make a living out of kit building but then the cheap arf era biguin i now hav 2 planes 1 an Arf (far cheaper than a kit specialli in pattern beginings) and 1 unbuilt kit, I can say that manny people still turn to some one who has building experience when they want to repair or buy a plane and some others just cant belive that the crashed arf looks beter than new after a recovering job.
as far for the expence it really is not a question of monney youll invest acording to your wallet; but the pride of building and flying your built plane is in fact more than getting a junkie ARF....... I have invested well over $50 bucks in hardwear after replacing the original one after some abues!:D:D

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

sorry for my griting long time without english!
[&o]

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Vo,

I don't have the Mustang or Zero or even the Stuka plan set, but If you would like, I have a new in the tube set of Zirole plans for the P-40 that I will never build. I only do Golden Age planes any more (specificially, the WACO YMF). Sorry to hear that you feel that way about building, so here's the deal. If you would like to build this large P-40, the plans are yours free. let me know if you want to build this one, and send me your address, and I will ship them out to you. If you want them, I will also send you a set of the cut parts for the WACO in 1/5th scale. You can get the plans from the AMA plans service. The WACO Phoenix project is about complete, and this set of templates will ensure that this model will not meet the fate of so many others. The plans do not have any parts templates, so we set out to resurrect this old kit. We have quite a few modifications to enable the plane to be built using modern methods, and the plane should build quite a bit lighter if you do the mods. Let me hear from you.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I have come to the realization that room in the hangar is reaching an end...therefore i have told myself that any plane i get in the near future will be a kit. Somebody told me the other day that i have a fear of being bored, which i found to be quite true. Having this fear, i always like to have a project on the table. ARFs don't get much time on the table, leading me to spend more money buying more planes that i don't have room for... I agree that kits/scratch building nickle & dime the crap out of you, but in my opinion, it's a lot cheaper than another plane that i would have bought...

I have just finished a scratch built plane (my second real build ever) to the point of covering...i think i came in about $100 over budget. But over the few months i have been working on it, i could have easily built 2-3 arfs.

But most importantly, the satisfaction of building a kit is MUCH higher...now i just gotta work on the nerves when i'm flying a kit-plane!

Pics: Before & After (very rewarding!)

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I've never seen an engine mounted quite like that before on a model. Pusher prop I suppose? Should be interesting!:D

Mike

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Sorry I got grumpy there Bill... please accept my most sincere apologies.

I would love to build the P-40, but I'm probably looking at something that comprehensive next year. I wouldn't have the funds to do much with it this year.. maybe the tail surfaces, but that would be about all... but P-40's always have been another one of those beauties I'd like to build. Had a small Top Flite P-40 back in the day that flew beautiful. Wished at the time my dad and I had the retracts for it though. I figured that my next large project was going to be a pretty scale warbird, so that's why I was looking at the Ziroli plans :) Would even use that flite metal for covering a beast like that :) Always wanted to build a scale ship, and slowly peck away at the small details.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Well, PM me with your address, and I'll ship it out to you.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

RTF and ARF will be the demise of the kit, the same way kits have been the demise of scratch building :D NOT!

I'm a relative newbie (this is only my fourth year flying), but in that time, I've scratch built at least 6 SPADs, built two kits, repaired one crashed Nexstar (using mostly scraps left over from other projects), and am finishing up my first self designed scratch build balsa and foam. Here's what I've discovered.

1. Flying is fun.
2. Building is fun.
3. If you can't go to the field due to lousy weather, you can build.
4. Its fun to go to the field with the ugliest plane in the club and fly circles around the RTF flyers that are so worried about crashing their pride and joy.
5. Its fun to go the the field with a well built kit and recieve the accolades of your clubmates for a job well done.
6. Its fun to discuss with your clubmates the tips and techniques you've collected for building and repairing.
7. Balsa is cheap and plentiful.
8. Plastic is cheap, plentiful, and durable.
9. Any parts that survive the crash reduce the cost of the next build.
10. There's room at the field for everyone.

Brad

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

This I agree . If you don't want to try building then don't, if you do all the better. I prefere to build as I find great satisfaction in building my own. And I can match and most times beat the finish on any ARF. But there may come a day when I decide to buy a pre-built model. I also agree that a "home rolled" plane costs more than a ARF but money is not always an issue with some people the skills they develop building are lessons that don't come free. I feel that the extra cost and time building a kit or scratch building are money well spent as these extra cost provide me with more joy of this hobby.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I am in the "afraid to be bored" camp. I would bet that 90% of all kit or scratch builders are as well.

It is also a great feeling seeing your plane that you but together from scraps of wood start to soar through the sky and think, I built that and it really flys.

It also feels great when you are building, hit a step you think will be hard, then just push through it and realise it was not near as hard as you thought it would be.

If you stop learning, what is the point in getting up in the morning. Kit building is learning for me. I learn something new on each project I do, be it kit building, working on the hose or car or anything else. It all keeps my mind spinning, which keeps me out of trouble.

Sorry for the rambling post.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I like to build kits because it is interesting to me and it is something to do instead of watching TV or playing on the computer in the evenings.
Building a kit usually takes me a while so it slows down airplane consumption, just because I like something.
I am not a master builder by any means and as mentioned earlier my planes always are heavier than they should be, but I still like to build them.
ARFs are a lot better than they were even 5 years ago and continue to improve. I will probably go back to ARFs sometime in the future.
If you want to promote kit building you might try having a club kit building contest.
I iniatiated a kit building contest for the club I am in and I think we will have 10 - 15 people enter their kit built planes.
There will be at least one first time kit builder and I am working on a couple more.
It will be a beauty contest and a fun-fly event.
The discussion for this contest was the most fun we have had at a meeting for a long time.
Even the people who do not plan to build a kit seem to be interested and excited about it.
The bottom line is that model airplanes should be fun, and if building a model from plans or a kit is fun then go for it.
If buying an ARF or a used airplane is fun then go for that too.
We should all get over the poor attitudes towards park fliers, electrics, 3D, glow, ARFs, helicopters ..... or whatever else gets us all worked up.
In the end we are all just playing with toy airplanes because it is something fun to do.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I have waffled back and forth on how to best awnser this question in my own mind. I have been in the hobby for 3 years now and truly regret not getting into it when i was younger and could be selfish with my income LOL~!!!. Anyways here goes. I started with an RTF trainer and a simulator. I live a long ways away from the nearest Hobbyshop and over 2 hours away from the nearest field, I was patient and flew lots on the sim before attempting to fly my trainer (hangar-9 arrow). I was successful with my maiden and have not stopped since. I have bought 3 ARFS (Super chipmunk, p-51, beaver) and had 2 kits (super shipmunk, LT-40) i sold the chip to a friend and am in the process of finishing the LT-40. I am the type of person that when i start a project i cannot put it down until it's done. If i have to then it grates on me until i can get back at it. I am married with 2 children under the age of 13 so i am very busy chasing them around, so for now i will finish the LT-40 and get my uncle in the air and i will use my arfs until i can devote enough time to build a kit. I will not make the time right now because that would mean taking more time away from my family and i am not willing to do that. So i am glad that there are ARF's so that i can fly and build my flying skill but i anticipate the day when i can devote a room to building and take the time to build a kit. Eventually i will scratch build a PT-23 Cornell as it was the plane that my grandpa trained new pilots in in Souris Manitoba during WWII. ARF's have their place in this hobby for sure but i will do my part to make sure that kit building doesn't dwindle away. I eagerly anticipate the finishing of the LT-40 as it is my first kit and i am very proud of it.

Flyboy76

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Build kits, or don't! I like doing it and will continue to do so. 1/2 of the enjoyment I get from this hobby is building! Doing something with my hands is good for my spirit! Nothing in this hobby is about saving money, it's about having fun!

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Well said.

Mike

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Kit building takes time, and work. ARF planes put you in the air allot faster without all the inconvenience. ARF planes are inexpensive compared to building a kit if you consider all the labor, and component costs. People do not have the time, or desire to build. The draw back is that without building experience some people cannot repair even the smallest damage. I was in a local hobby shop, and saw a gentleman with a minor tear in the covering desperately wanting this repaired. The store owner told him what it would cost, and he couldn't believe the price. Why should he consider a repair to his wing that would cost $100.00 dollars when he only paid $189.00 for the plane complete. The owner replied that you have three colors. That means three rolls of covering, and the labor. The owner was honest , and the customer was unhappy. He probably thought he was getting riped off, and ordered a new plane from Tower Hobbies. Most of our r/c products come from outside the US. Manufactures look for cheap labor, and materials to bring their products to market. Now I don't want to get into that child labor sweatshop thing, because these jobs might be a blessing to these people that live in places like China. I bought a Super Tigre 3250, and thought they were made in Italy. I have been out of R/C for 20 years. Yes kits are drying up. Manufactures need to make a profit to stay in business. Tower has many ARF compared to kits. The next kit I think that will be discontinued will be the Topflight Stinson Reliant. Custom plan, and cutting companies will survive to support the building market. I build everything I fly. ARF planes may be great. I think the price of ARF planes will increase in the future. We think of this as a hobby, and manufactures operate as a business directed by profit.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I truly am sorry to see the kit's availability dwendling. I think it is logical to consider that there really are only two model airplane companies doing gang buster business in the USA. They are Horizon Hobbies and Tower Hobbies/Great Planes/Hobbico. Yes, there are many other distributers and producers, however, I think all will agree these are the two benchmarks in the U.S. What they sell (for the most part) reflects what the market desires (I do have questions about how much influence they have on the actual direction the hobby heads, as their superior positions within the hobby does give them power).

Looking here at R/CU, it appears that kit building does have some interest. I wonder what the percentage of R/Cers whom build is, compaired to the whole of R/Cers. There really is no place in this forum to conduct such a pole, to bad.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Kits VS ARFs.... hum ... marry the two and you get ARF Bash! it's getting to be no1 building activity> i'm in!

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

Shortening the words for Bashing ARFs could be termed: "BARF". It therefore stands to reason that the actual act would then be termed: "BARFing" and taking said aircraft to the flying field, might be considered "Taking a Flying BARF"?!?

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

I can explain why I build..............because its there.

RE: Kit vs Arf
 

i enjoy building because i know every piece of wood that goes into a model. if i see something i don't like, i change it. i find it easier to come up with $10 here and $30 there compared to $400 all at once. i also get the satisfaction of somthing i make with my two hands taking to the sky and returning to earth. i also like the fact that i've learned more tips, techniques, and skills than i ever though i'd learn by building. i'm not flaming on ARF's i own a few myself. however, i don't think as dearly of them as i do my kits.