B-24 Build
 

OK, I'm ready to jump into the deep end of the pool. As usual I go overboard with almost everything. I wanted to get my assembly table ready. I'm very lucky. I had some square steel tubing lying around. Hopefully the pictures will come through OK. First welded them together, my best friend has a grinding business and he ground the tubing flat and true. Then I attached a 3/4 in. plywood base, Bill ground it also flat. Then had a local metal supply house cut a 26 guage sheet of steel, 18in. by 80 in. I attached it to the plywood with contact cement. My idea for this was so I could use welders magnets and home made ones to square up parts for gluing. Harbor Freight has a lot of welders magnets, cheap, and I got some round rare earth magnets and made some holders out of red oak wood I had lying around. Also to let you know, I sometimes jump around with my boy toys in the garage. One month I might be working on the B-24, then a 1/12th scale model machine shop made from castings from PM Research or maybe a woodworking project. The B-24 is therapy for me. I enjoy the building process. So this project might be years in the making and I will certainly keep everyone informed. I intend for this project to be donated to a museum when finished to honor my Dad, a B-24 Flight Engineer and POW, and all the other men and women who flew in the ETO. Tally Ho.

RE: B-24 Build
 

WOW! I have building board envy!! If you could market those I would take one. They would cost a fortune though and the shipping would kill me. (so would my wife) I will be checking in on the project.

Enjoy!

Gord

RE: B-24 Build
 

Gord,

Like I said, I'm very fortunate to have acess to a lot of stuff here in So. Cal. And a lot of good friends who are very kind, informative, helpful and willing to help.

Tally Ho,

Dave<br type="_moz" />

RE: B-24 Build
 

Dave - I'm just leaning back in my chair and clapping!

RE: B-24 Build
 

Last Friday I started the build on my B-24. I laid the "keel" and looked at the date. 9/11/2009. Let's see if that date means anything. I've been using all of your advice on adhesives. I will use CA thick if I need a quick "tack" before I use my Titebond. So far I'm taking my time and trying to do it "right the first time, not right the second time!!!!" The magnets are working great.

Tally Ho

Dave<br type="_moz" />

RE: B-24 Build
 

Great progress, your B-24 is getting big fast, B-24 is beautiful and as an RC plane with a nose gear it suppose to be easier.
I'm sure these magnets save time too, and at the end of it I dont think building with TiteBond is slower than CA, actually IMO its faster.
TiteBond 2 is much easier to sand than TiteBond 3, Thin CA doesnt stick well to plywood medium CA does.
The thicker the CA the worse the allergy signs get, anyway its better to work in a ventilated area.
I apply TiteBond 2 with Q-tips and hobby syringe.

Alex

RE: B-24 Build
 

Alex - I'm with ya on using the syringe &amp; q-tips for applying Titebond - makes for a very clean joint. But I gotta respectfully disagree with Titebond II being easy to sand. I had to extend the TE of my current build (Bridi Killer Chaos 60) by adding a 1/8" piece of balsa the full width of the TE. When I sanded it to the final shape the Titebond II rolled up, gummed up the paper and remained somewhat soft. Anticipating the "was it dry" question, it dried for several days in 10% humidity. The resulting shape is "just OK". I can't compare it with any other glue. I have no clue what it would have been like with the original Titebond or the new III.

Your project is getting me thinking about a multi-engine warbird - emmmmmm ....

RE: B-24 Build
 

What ever works for you, Titebond 3 i just couldnt sand, titebond 2 its hard but possible with a technique - not to create globs of glue and spread it when applied.
I know what you mean by "its rolling" its better not to create these lines and if they are I'm using 80 grit to breake them.
I didnt say its easy i said its easier=less hard.
all this is still way better than CA I just forgot how bad it was sanding medium CA.
would be interesting to try Elmer's pro glue.

Alex

RE: B-24 Build
 

I have a fuse to build for the Bridi - think I'll visit Home Depot tomorrow and grab a bottle of Elmer's Pro. I'm not against doing test glue ups. May just spread some Elmer's, Titebond original, Titebond II and medium CA on 4 sections of the same 2 pieces of wood then check out the sandability.
Btw, on my TE issue - I didn't just sand the glue seam - I had to sand a surface thru the 1/8" of balsa and sand "to" the glue seam from the side (not the end). The glue seam was actually 1/2" wide - kinda unique and I hope I don't have to fix something like that again.

RE: B-24 Build
 

This test can be very interesting the med CA is not met to sand.

RE: B-24 Build
 

Here's my setup and glue up pics ...

Pic 1 &amp;2 - the contestants; Titebond (orig), Titebond II, Elmer's Stainable, Zapa-dapa-goo-glue, SIG-ment, Testors wood cement
Pic 3 &amp; 4 - the test wood - 6 pieces of 1/4" balsa glued to an old (warped) 4Star60 aileron
Pic 5 &amp;6 - the glue up - I was messy on purpose - wanted to see how hard the squeeze was
Pic 7 &amp;8 - different point of view

Oh ya - I ignored using CA- didn't want to offend my nose http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...spinnyeyes.gif

I hadn't seen the stainable Elmer's glue before. It contains wood particles. The particles were impossible to "sense" as Iused my finger tip to spread all glues onto the small pieces of wood. All were very "smooth" in texture.

I'll check dry-to-touch time every 15 minutes.

RE: B-24 Build
 

Things that I found out.<ul>[*]Alephatic resins are absorbed differently - some more readily aborbed into the wood than others resulting in a cleaner joint[*]Strength of various glues after 4 hours of setup vary from "separate joint with pinky" to "can't separate the joint with 2 fingers and 2 thumbs"[*]Joint after sanding with 80 grit on 22" Great Planes sanding bar vary from "unrecognizable" to "very apparent[/list]Here's what I found:
Strength ranking 1st to 6th:

1. Elmer's - couldn't easily bust it loose (actually, I didn't break it loose)
2. Testor's - ditto
3. Titebond II - stought but not real stought
4. Titebond (orig) - ditto
5. SIG-ment - fairly weak joint
6. Zap-a-Dapa (don't bother)

Absorbtion of glue (less to sand / interior seams are less obvioous):

1. Testor's - gone (extremely fast setup)
2. Titebond II - decent absorbtion even when blobs were left on purpose
3. Titebond (orig) - ditto
4. SIG-ment - moderately good absorbtion (clean up highly recommended)
5. Elmer's - blobs remained after setup
6. Zap-a-Dapa - yuk

Post Sanding w/ 80 grit (from "what joint to"to "it's so obvious")

1. SIG-ment - can't see joint
2. Testor's - ditto
3. Elmer's - ditto
4. Titebond (orig) - yea, it's there
5. Titebond II - very obvious as the glue didn't sand easily
6. Zap-a-dapa (see a trend?) - pftz

Smell (from mild to very chemical)

1. Elmer's (reminds me of grade school)
2. Titebond (orig)&amp;II - not offensive
3. SIG-ment, Testor's &amp;Zap-a-dapa - smells like you really don't want to strike a match

Residual color of unabsorbed glue:

1. Testor's - clear w/ minimal exposed glue
2. SIG-ment - clear and shinny, more exposed glue
3. Zapa- junk - clear and junky, clunky, blobby -
4. Titebond (orig) - slight yellowing (glue was better absorbed than other AR)
5. Elmer's - less yellow - milky - but didn't absorb into wood as well as Titebond (orig)
6. Titebond II- brighter yellow - absorbed well but left shinny yellow fillet at joint

With good clean up of joints the last ranking is not an issue.

Personally, my ranking:

1. Elmer's - very strong and sand seam very nice - no problem when using transparent covering
2. Testor's - similar to Elmer's except small tube ($$$$) and nasty smell.
3. Titebond (orig) - sands better than Titebond II
4. Titebond II - sanding is an issue with no apparent strength benefit - why use it
5. SIG-ment - pretty weak
6. Zapa - crap

HTH,

Btw - the pins easily pulled out of all of the samples.

RE: B-24 Build
 

Thank you very much SeamusG for the information, effort, time and conclusion.
based on your research and conclusion Elmer's is my glue from now on.
We got carried away with this experiment and I just dont feel right polluting the guy's thread so I’ll ask the moderator to move posts #6 to #13 to this thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_90...tm.htm#9082536
If its impossible we will think how to do it.

Thanks
Alex

RE: B-24 Build
 

SeamusG.
Thaks for posting that info, I use Elmer's for most of my building and occasioanl C/A and of course epoxy where strenght is ctritical. I have been tempted to try the Titebond glues but after reading your post I think I will just stay with the Elmers. I have also found that the Elmers glue sands easily.
Thanks!!
Anthony

RE: B-24 Build
 

Yup - agree 100%.

If a technoid digihead moderator is listening, how about a forum thread linking feature that allows us to "shell out" a mini-thread like this to keep the continuity of the original thread.

Dave - I apologize.

RE: B-24 Build
 

Dave,

How about a little background. Who's plan's; who cut the kit for you; what will the finished plane look like; you have a scheme figured out; pictures of the one your dad was a flight engineer on?

The B-24 has always been my favorite bomber and I have a set of Don Smith plans I hope to build out someday.

RE: B-24 Build
 

Glad to see the B-24 build! Nice start to a great project. Nothing wrong with the glue information...very useful to all of us. Personally I use Titebond Original or Titebond III for sanding ease.......or Ambroid :D:):D. I'll be following along on this build!

Soft landings.

Joe

RE: B-24 Build
 

Hey, this is my first giant build. Any info an experienced builder can give me, even the many threads about adhesives, is more than welcome. The kit was cut by Precision Cut Kits and the plans were from them. Don Smith plans. They have bought out Smith and are now the distributors of his plans. The finished plane will probably be adorned with nose art saying "Carry Me Back". The tail markings will be twofold. One one side will be Olive Drab with a white circle and an "I" in the middle and the other will be yellow with a black stripe(top/front of stab to lower/rear). Dad always said that plane NEVER carried him back. Dad was with the 448th Bomb Group/715 Bomb Squadron. He was shot down during "Big Week", Feb 21, 1944. The 448th was white circle until about March or April 1944 then they went to the yellow with black stripe. I don't have any pictures of the one Dad was on, can only go on what info he has give me. I'm going to have to work on getting some pictures of Dad in his flight suit and some of B-24's with his tail markings.

RE: B-24 Build
 

davidyat-

I am INSAINLY jealous of your building equipment!

RE: B-24 Build
 

David,

Thanks for the reply and the information. One of the many things that I really enjoy about R/C scale building with warbirds if there is any history behind the plane that one is modeling. Best of luck with your build I'll be watching your progress.

Mike "maddog" Pirkl

RE: B-24 Build
 

Some links which may be of help (or you may already have these)
http://www.b24bestweb.com/flyingsac1.htm
http://www.b24bestweb.com/deadendkids.htm
http://www.b24bestweb.com/achtungnoonballoon.htm
http://www.b24bestweb.com/4-f-v1.htm

A B-24 is somewhere in my future for similar reasons, although it will be a B-24H-1-DT of the 449th/718th instead of a J-75-CO.

RE: B-24 Build
 

there is also this book but I dont know what is inside.
http://www.amazon.com/448th-Bomb-Gro.../dp/0764314645

RE: B-24 Build
 

I'm making progress. I can be anal sometimes as I want everything perfect so it might take me some time to advance to the next stage. I've finished the first 1/2 of the fuse. And, please, if someone can make a suggestion, I'm all ears. Thanks for the info on adhesives. I really like the Elmer's Glue All. You're right that the Titebond dries with a color and Elmer's does not. Before I go to the right side of the fuse, if anyone has any suggestions as to what I should do or put into the fuse before I close up the fuse, let me know. The assembly table is working just like I wanted it to. And the strength of the fuse allows me to place heavy metalworking pieces to keep parts in place that the magnets can't hold. I have found that I like to take 1/4 in. sticks and carve them into a point to use a glue applicators. I kind of use them as paint brushes and dab the glue into the corners and smooth it out. I drink a lot of Propel fitness water so I have a ton of caps that can be used as epoxy mixers and glue holders.

Tally Ho<br type="_moz" />

RE: B-24 Build
 

Moving on. Today I took some time to dry fit the formers for the other side of the fuse. There is a saying in woodworking, "You will NEVER have too many clamps!!!!"

Tally Ho<br type="_moz" />

RE: B-24 Build
 

Looks great, fits like a miracle.

There is one thing I don’t like in titebond 2: when you glue long surfaces it dries in a curvature.
I would consider 30 or 45 min epoxy for parts of this length.

There is a trick i learned here: if you put the epoxy mixture cup in icy water its slowing the curing process.
I suggest to try it first before using it on an important part like you have.

Alex