Why Glass?
 

I am working on a 30% Ace Extra 230 and covering is on my mind. I have been reading about using Minwax water based urathane to adhear the fiberglass to the sealed balsa. The process as I see it is ...

Seal the balsa with wood sealer
Fiberglass adheared with minwax
Fill the weave
Prime
paint
clear

If I dont need the strenth of the fiberglass, why am I putting it on? What is the purpose of the fiberglass? Dent protection? Can I go straight from sealer to urathene to primer?. I have only used monocote before and do not want the plastic look.

RE: Why Glass?
 

If you do not put the glass on it, you can bet that it will show the balsa grain through your topcoat in just a couple of outings with it, trust me...

one more thing, be very carful on the method of finishing your choosing, by painting you can make your airplane have a finish like a grand piano, but if your not watching your weight real close, it could end up flying like a grand piano, and that would not be alot of fun. IMO ;)

Bob

RE: Why Glass?
 

That is a good enough reason for me. I dont want grain showing any more than the plastic look.
Thanks
But
If fiberglass is to hide the grain will any fabric do... ?

RE: Why Glass?
 

The glass you'll be using will be around .75 to .56 ozs weight, much lighter than standard cloth, it's fairly cheap too, I bought it through tower, 1 sq yard is 5 bucks, and it will make it way more dent resistant. I stripped my monokote and I'm doing a glass finish for durability, I've found that almost all the damage to the p-47 is due to hangar rash.

RE: Why Glass?
 

I suppose you could put other paintable coverings on, but glass is probably the lightest and easiest option in my opinion. 1/2 to 3/4 oz. glass with the Minwax option is a very simple light weight way to fill the weave. I use epoxy and have never had any weight issues to be concerned with and it can be painted with any type of paint. As long as the weave is filled properly with the water base or epoxy, there should be no concern with the weight the paint. That is unless you want to add multiple layers of paint.

RE: Why Glass?
 

another option is to use a light wieght material, I have used silk and polyurethane with great success,

RE: Why Glass?
 

I did this little quickie in glass, then painted it with dope paints, you can use any paint ontop of epoxy/glass finish. The total weight added to the plane was less than an ounce, you just have to try and get enough epoxy to wet out the glass and make it stick down, once dry, you can go back and fill it with more epoxy or a mix of epoxy and microballons, filler primer, or what ever suits you.

RE: Why Glass?
 

I've never seen that actual kit, but most Extras have open bays on the wings and open areas on the fuse. You don't use glass on a plane with open bays, only on fully sheeted wings and/or fuses. For wings or fuses with open bays you need to use a fabric like Koverall, silk, or one of the heat shrink fabrics like Worldtex or Solartex.

RE: Why Glass?
 

I had a friend once that doinked one really bad, it comes with a foam core wing, plug in and fully sheeted fuse/wings. It's an old kit, good though, I fixed the entire plane and it's still flying to this day, sure it's been crashed a few times but it still flies, he ended up replacing the brission with a zdz 80, now it's way overpowered. Fiberglass specialties carries the cowl and pants for the plane if you don't know.;)

RE: Why Glass?
 

planebuilder66

Your Quickie is awesome, is it a kit, did you do a thread on it?[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]

RE: Why Glass?
 

you've already answered your question. you don't want the plastic look. i glass everything i build i the same order that you mentioned. it's well worth the effort. btw, you forgot to add sanding to the list. there is a lot more sanding involved.[sm=teeth_smile.gif]

RE: Why Glass?
 

Soarrich,
thanks for the compliments, it was built from RCM plans, I do believe it was plan # 840, this is the 1/2A size. They also have a .40 sized one that is plan #868, it wasn't too hard to do, infact on a scale of 1 to 10 on building difficulty, I'd rank it around 4, but I did make a lot of mods to the design for the motor I used, and I changed the shape a little to resemble a Q-200 version. I did do a build thread on it, there's a lot of info packed in there about this design, especially which parts on the plans are incorrectly sized. But nothing major. ;)

RE: Why Glass?
 

One thing I didn't see mentioned, glassing adds strength to the structure and it helps keep out the hanger rash. I use Deft Sanding Lacquer and 1/2oz glass. After the second coat of Lacquer I mix it 50/50 with baby powder then start sanding between coats until the weave is gone. The finish is outstanding but you really need to have an OPEN area when using the Lacquer, it will knock you on your ear!! I started using the Klass Kote paint, 2 part epoxy, totaly fuel proof and bullet proof. Mixed 50/50 with thinner it covers very well so you don't add too much weight. Good stuff but not cheap!

RE: Why Glass?
 

Just a couple of questions?

What weight are you shooting for on your finished 30% Ace 230, and what type of flying are you wanting to do. The ace 230 tends to come out on the heavy side unless you highly bash it in the first place.
In the last 43 years or so that I have been building and flying r/c models, I have never seen a painted airplane come out lighter than a plastic cover airplane, side by side of the same airplane. Don't get me wrong, I love painted airplanes too, and I love doing them this way myself, but I stopped painting aerobatic airplane years ago because the wing loading just gets to high and they truly suffer in all aspects of aerobatics.
I am a huge advocate of lightweight airplanes and I have spent much of my life documenting this fact through many on a diet build threads over the years. Have you ever heard the term (Lighter fly's better). If you have, thats because it's true. Just some food for thought.

Bob

RE: Why Glass?
 

That is true bob, but when it comes to repairing torn or ripped plastic covering, I'd rather take on a few more ounces of epoxy and glass than have to remove and recover anything with plastic covering, plus matching paint to plastic is becoming more and more like a hunt for the lost arc, so from now on, all my planes are going to be glassed or fabric covered and all of them painted. I think I wasted more than 50 bucks in paint trying to get the paint to match the monokote on a GPextra .40 sized kit. But it does look good when done.

RE: Why Glass?
 

I hear it all the time, mostly from ARF manufactures.;)

RE: Why Glass?
 

I suppose your comment was clever, completely unconstructive to somebody that may not really understand the real effects of heavier wing loadings on aircraft, especially these smaller ones, but never the less clever, and I don't know about ARF manufacturer's statements because I don't really deal with ARFs, but to the avid airframe designer, builder and pilot, it sounds like you are lost in this area of our hobby. I tell you what I will do for you, just as soon as I finish the aircraft I am currently building, and it should be done in the next 4-6 weeks, I will get my hands on a 48" to 56" sport flyer kit and do one of my On A Diet build threads with flight video. Hows that? :>)

PS The reason I don't mess with ARFs is in my opinion, most are to heavy, but thats just me...;)

Bob

RE: Why Glass?
 

The ace 230 is not small, it has a 96" wingspan if I remember correctly, she's a big MO-FO. but I do see bolth points, the plastic is lighter, and in some respaect, easier to fix punctures around the size of a dime, but any real big tears, and it's gonna need alot of stripping, sanding and recovering. I just love the way my little quickie could fall off the bench 38" from the floor, hit the bandsaw on the way down and then the concrete floor. I was terrified to see what damage happened, well let's just say I was shocked to find a small chip in the dope finish, that's all, from where it hit the bandsaws table corner. I was sold after that, I'll never look at plastic again for covering, koverall, silk or epoxyglass from now on for me.

RE: Why Glass?
 

By today's standards, thats small, the last Ace 230 I saw was almost 23 lbs. I had the chance to fly it once and I could feel all 23 of them, just as a comparision, about 6 or 7 years ago I built a Lanier 1/3 scale Laser with a 96" span, on a diet, the ready to fly weight was 15 lbs. 8 ozs. and flying them both was night and day.

Bob

RE: Why Glass?
 

The extra I am working on has a 87" span. The plans say 15lbs and up.. I dont have a weight target in mind because i don't have the experience to guestimate. The largest I have flown is a Great planes Patty Wagstaff Extra with a Moki 180. I realize that this kit is from a different time period and will be much heavier per inch. I thought that the iron on cloth, monokote and glass w/paint all ended up adding about the same weight if done correctly.

I rcvd the kit nearly completly assembled. It uses rather robust construction for todays standards. So weight of the covering is an issue. I would prefere the experince of glassing but I do want this plane to be flyable in a scale fashion. (no 3d). If there is a sizeable weight differance I would prefer good flying over good looking.

RE: Why Glass?
 

I think the only way the plane I rebuilt for my buddy could have reached that 23# weight target is if it had 8 # of lead strapped to the nose, the whole thing maybe weighed 18-19LBS, but no more than that. Who ever built that 23# ace extra was getting real friendly with the epoxy bottles and over building everything. I got the chance to maiden it for him, it felt pretty controllable, and landed real smooth, not a slow landing plane, but I didn't feel like it was going to fall out of the sky like a refrigerator if the engine quit. He increased the throws and tries to do 3D, but the surfaces are not big enough for that, but it will slow up to the point of a stall, then hits the throttle and goes vertical and hovers for a bit then pulls out like a rocket. I guess to each thier own, I know almost all scale and serious builers will tell you to fabric or glass your plane, 8 out of 10 times if you asked 10 of them. I just like the finish and the durability factor. I have too many planes right now that are covered in plastic that need repairs from dumb accidents while sitting in the basement or durring transport.

RE: Why Glass?
 

those are extreme examples. kudos to you for a 15 lb, 96" ws plane btw but 96" will fly fine heavier than that. while there are some great monocoters out there it's still monocote. you can have your plastic shrink wrap and seams, i'll build light, finish light and paint light and have a much better looking airplane.

RE: Why Glass?
 

Where can we get 1/2oz glass now? Dan Parson's used to sell the .6oz stuff, but haven't seen any of that for a while either. All I'm finding is the 3/4 oz cloth but would rather use the lighter stuff if available.

RE: Why Glass?
 

This is the closestthing I found to .5 oz, and it's the best deal so far, not sure why they say plain/loose, maybe you have your choice.
[link]http://www.acpsales.com/product.php?productid=17581[/link]
there's also Hanger 9 stuff,
[link]http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=HAN3620[/link]

RE: Why Glass?
 

When it comes to glassing with .5 and .75 oz cloth I peronally don't think that it adds strength like people think. I had some .5oz cloth left laying around, trim ends from my p47 that I glassed. These trim ends were the ends cut off after using zpoxy. I was EASILY able to tear these zpoxied pieces in half with only my hands just like ripping paper in half. I don't think strength is attained untill a person uses 1.5 oz cloth or greater. Of course this is too heavy for glasing entire surfaces...

.5 and .75 oz cloth is great for doing scale paint jobs that won't crack from usage but thats it... I bet that covering like monokote is actually stronger. Just try to tear clean cut monokote with your fingers without staring the cut with a knife or sizzors. lol try it!

Also dents and dings in glassed surfaces usually result in actual punctures where that fiberglass has received a hit like a hole puch and the glass tears easily even with the lightest wack. Covering doesn't do this it only dents and doesn't always tear through. Most blunt dings on normal covering result in a minor depression...