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Need more power!

Old 05-28-2003, 04:39 AM
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Spiro
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Default Need more power!

I did some more flying with the littlebird and have some pics, though they are not all the greatest. The flight was pretty hairy and I didn’t give the camera man that many good opportunities. I will get them scanned in tomorrow, some are worthwhile.

My flight today was far less satisfying than yesterday. Today was probably 15 degrees warmer and the Vmax6 barely had enough juice to lift the whole rig in the air. When I was attempting forward flight for the camera, I was at 100% throttle the entire time for about 4 minutes. It was rather interesting, and very challenging, to attempt to control the attitude of the heli with neither collective nor variable head speed. By using more or less control throw on the cyclic I was, to some extent, able to achieve some sort of control over the whole scary procedure. Then of course the engine was slowly overheating and losing power, making each additional second the camera man wanted drag on forever. I will never fly like this again… ug.

At this point I am faced with an undeniable fact. The engine does not have enough power to comfortably fly as much weight as I would like to with the body and my various extra mods (at least on a hot day). I will try another flight in the next couple of days without the weapon planks and see if that satisfies me, but I already know the answer to that. At this point I am considering the Vmax7 for $90 or perhaps an electric setup for a whole pile more.

I am eagerly reading the various electric threads curious about the lowest cost brushless setups and how they perform. I see no point in going brushed at all, so that isn’t even an option. I am also now faced with the much more time consuming and delicate chore of cleaning my md500/littlebird fuselage. Electric seems so appealing, why can’t it be cheaper

If any of you guys have access to a decent scale, I would love to know how much your rig weighs all up, ready to fly. I will take mine in to work tomorrow and see how obese I have managed to make everything.

Any advice or recommendations on either Vmax7 or electric are welcome. Of course there are a whole pile of threads on the two already

Thanks in advance,
Spiro

ps: The fuselage looked fabulous in flight. Thanks again Darth!
Old 05-28-2003, 08:05 AM
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Default Need more power!

Lowest brushless cost for LMH heli is probably a Mega 16/15/3 + Phoenix 35 combo that you should be able to pick up for as little as $140

Cliff
Old 05-28-2003, 01:22 PM
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Default Need more power!

Thanks Cliff,

What about batteries? I usually fly for about 1 hour, perhaps six 10 minute flights with some fuel left in the tank when I come back for more. It seems like people are paying some $40-$45 for packs which get 10 minutes in the air on a brushless setup. That seems like a whole lot of fuel to me… What would be an economical battery pack combination to get similar flight time?

Spiro
Old 05-28-2003, 03:34 PM
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tell me some more information about your Vmax6 engine. How old? About how many flights you have on it? Washers under the head ? I Have a Vmax6 engine it hauls even my heaviest fuselage(bell 222) really great. As the engine wears out, youll begin to see a gradual power loss and more overheating. You may want to consider a new piston and sleeve. Heres the breakdown of the life of one of my Vmax6 engines: I break it in with about four washers and 15% fuel. If its not producing the power I like after break in, I remove 1 washer. That will usually do the trick. As the engine wears, i'll remove washers until Im down to one under the glow plug. Then, Ill bump up to a higher nitro fuel either 20 or 25% and go back to two- three washers. When Im back down to one washer and have used none in the Vmax 6, That engine is worn out. I fly four to five gallons of fuel a year easy. Ive worn my engine out so bad that you can see slop between the piston and the cylinder wall. I just recently went with the Vmax7 earlier this year but was having some problems with it so, i really didnt start flying with it until this month. Its alot more power and it really hauls. Im about at a half gallon of fuel through it in about three weeks. I fly it on average once or twice a day. I broke it in with about 5-7 washers under the head. I say about because Im using an adapter that is about five washers thick and I have two regular copper washers under the head. So far its been great. There was a problem with Con rod breaking but seemingly this engine is A-OK. My big grin is back . Spiro, mabey your Vmax6 is getting tired and is time for either a new piston and cylinder or mabey a whole new engine. The upgrade is kinda pricey at $90 bucks. Well, with the upgrade you do get the new engine, throttle muffler, clutch shoes, clutch bell, and starter cone. Oh yes, and glow plug and heat sink. Thinking about all that you get, its really not that bad. The Vmax7 uses the same clutch bell and can use the same clutch shoes if the hole is bored out larger and correctly. Im doing an electric version and if you decide to go electric, you will see its going to be much heavier than the gas models. Also Im hearing electric guys are having their woes just like the gas guys. Some are experiencing glitches, ESC troubles, Battery woes etc... The difference basically between electric and gas is the clean up. Id like to get my electric going soon but Im waiting on an ESC then Im ready. Oh yes and a gyro. I have two Vmax6 engines, one is a good one (still lots of power) and the other is worn out. I squeezed every drop out of it. I dont plan on getting rid of them because if my V7 ever dies, I have a back up. I need to be ordering a new piston and sleeve for the one. Ive had the heli die in flight once at about 15' off the ground and suffered very minor damage . If it was an electric, it would be like a brick falling out the sky. I hope this helps.
Old 05-28-2003, 04:45 PM
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Default Need more power!

Spiro-
I picked up an Astro020 Brushlesss motor with a pre-programmed (For the Corona) CC 35-amp ESC for $175 from Aeromicro.com. I love it. They are built and seviced in California which is a huge plus for me.
Old 05-28-2003, 11:48 PM
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Default Need more power!

Darth,

My Vmax6 is from the summer of 97, the only engine I have every owned for the heli. I picked it up right after they made the switch from the Cox engine and came out with the 100+ kit. I do not fly quite as much as you and probably have 10-14 gallons through this engine. It is very possible that the little guy is just worn out, but the piston does not seem sloppy in the cylinder and there is still a tight spot at TDC. The big end of the rod looks great with no signs of problems. I have slowly used higher and higher nitro over the years with fewer and fewer washers and now fly 30% with only one skinny little washer under the head. I would feel quite comfortable changing the piston and sleeve on my engine, but perhaps the same money would be better put towards the Vmax7. I am not sure there.

Though $90 is no small matter, I would consider the money well spent on a Vmax7 upgrade if it were to deliver all of the fabulous performance I have heard it is capable of. I would recommend a new buyer going with the Vmax7 off the bat. My largest concern is the talk about snapped rods and no definite reason for this problem. If not for that, I would have purchased one of these engines a while ago.

$140 is significantly better than I had feared for the electric power, but I am still concerned about putting some $250 into batteries. For the cost of an electric system I can literally get a whole new gas heli with the Vmax7 and servos. I even have another receiver I can use. I could have two! Not that I in any way need more than one, but I find it difficult justifying the money for the electric.

For what it is worth,
Spiro
Old 05-30-2003, 03:05 PM
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Default Need more power!

Spiro,

Ten minutes from a pack of 2400/2600 at a cost of about $40-45 is about right. However, if you buy 3 or 4 such packs and a charger (or even a pair of chargers) you can connect to your car's battery then after each 10 minutes you just put the next pack onto charge and fly the next pack in the sequence. You can do this ad infinitum (or until the battery discharges completely or the motor burns up from being run for too long!)

Cliff
Old 05-30-2003, 04:22 PM
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Mini Boy
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Spiro;

Look at it another way ...

If you had started with electric in 1996 (6 years ago), and did 6 - 10 minute flights a day twice a week using 4 battery packs 'til now, you would have had 3,744 flights logged. If it's true that Nicd / NiMh packs can be recharged 1000 times each, you probably would still be using the same packs. Perhaps the same motor too, if it was a decent brushless with ball bearings, and you may not have ever had to do anything to the motor either. What a pitty that woulb be.

The 4 battery packs would cost $160.00 today and if you pay $15.00 a gallon for fuel, and you burned 10 to 14 gallons as you said ... we'll call it 12 ... you've spent $180.00 for fuel.

The only difference is that with electric, you have to "bite the bullet" and spend the $$ up front, with oil motors, you just pay forever. Speaking of oil, how much have you spent on paper towels?? 1 roll a week (12 flights) at a buck a roll ($ .08 a flight)is $278.00 since 1996 .... ... WOWWWWW

Also, Cliff is correct, you can pretty much start the day with 4 charged packs and keep rotating them through a charger or two 'till your thumbs have rigor mortise or or your eyeballs fall out of your noggin. :stupid:

My 2-1/2 cents for what it's worth.

Happy choptering,

Russ
Old 05-30-2003, 05:57 PM
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Mini boy, Come on, your kinda stretching it a tad bit. What about the cost of a good charger. Six years ago, were there the brushless motors of today and were the battery packs having the same punch they are having today. Besides that, theres something about the fresh aromatic smell of nitro drifting across the flying field. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......... Im hearing more and more people having problems with electrics than with the gassers. I would like to do an electric and is in the process but Ill never surrender my little gas putters. Ok, heres what I come up with. (4) decent 2400-2600 batteries $40.00 each x 4
$160.00 a desent charger $100.00 .total so far $260.00 . A decent good brushless motor esc combo $140.00-$160.00. So far about $420.00. Ok My flying habits: 3 gallons of fuel per year and rough est; $15.00 a gallon $45.00 In ten years that would bring my fuel costs up to $450.00. OK lets go with six years:$270.00 and lets say in six years a new piston and sleeve every two years at $20.00 thats $60.00 . Thats $330.00 bucks. Forget the piston and sleeve and get the Vmax7 upgrade that brings a total operating cost for me in a six year period to $360.00 bucks. Ok Paper towel and windex $30.00 bucks(Thats alot of windex and paper towels). $390.00. Plus for gas and electric heli maintenance its not including any of the other stuff like parts replacements which should roughly be the same. Except the Corona guys on average go through more blades and booms .
I do have two reserve reciever packs so, I can fly for about an hour per pack before needing to replace the reciever pack, Working on a backup pack for xmitter or quick field charger. I know when the "bricks" begin to run out of juice they slowly loose their lifting power so you guys shouldnt be having to much of a crashing episode with them (except for all the glitching i hear about, and then "Look out below"! We Gas guys have to monitor our fuel consumption cause when its all gone Aint not such thing as an Autorotation with an LMH. Had a mechanical failure once about 40 feet up. My heli dropped. Only thing was some bent landing gear. If I had a "flying brick", Im sure the battery would have became dislodged and went through my heli body thus destroying it. Probably would have bent more than landing gear and I would have had to retrieve a shovel to dig it out the creater it would have left on impact . Like I said in an earlier thread, Im really looking forward to giving the electric a try. Gas vs Electric will probably always be a "Ford vs Chevy" type of competition, But its fun isnt it ?
Old 05-31-2003, 01:26 AM
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Mini Boy
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Default Need more power!

HI MASTER DARTH:

You know, I really didn't realize that I was in the LMHelicopter forum. I should stay in the "Electric Helicopter" area.

Please pardon me.

Happy "Oil motor" Choptering,

Russ

I think Spiro is on the right track ... eventually you guys will "get it"!
Old 05-31-2003, 02:18 AM
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darthdrk
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Mini boy, Its ok to hang out in here once in a while. Dont tell anyone, i sometimes hang out in the electric forums every now and then. probaby about the same.
Old 05-31-2003, 02:44 AM
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Spiro
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Anybody know what the gas to electric conversion kit costs? No motor, speed controller, or gyro of course. I can't seem to find it on the litemachines page anywhere, though I am sure I have seen it before...

Just curious.

Spiro
Old 05-31-2003, 03:05 AM
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Spiro
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Ha! You guys are hilarious. I never considered the “paper towel and windex” cost. While I suppose it is not zero, $278 seems a little much Truth be told I use one paper towel per wipe down and often reuse that one a number of times. I love those heavy blue “garage/shop” paper towels, they last forever. I don’t think I have gone through one roll of those the whole time I have owned the bird.

Also, if you want to do some comparisons, I have spent about $120 on fuel, according to my pile of receipts. Fuel now costs me about $12 a gallon but was closer to $10 once upon a time. On top of that I have broken exactly one (1) tail boom since I started flying in 1996, lost one (1) Z link, lost one (1) mixing arm, and stripped one (1) set of servo gears. Those are the only parts I have ever had to replace from wear or breakage. The white blades you see in the flying AH-6 shots are the original blades that came in the box. I could even still strap on the original canopy if I wanted to. I don’t know how many times I have put that thing into the concrete or some tree over the years, but reading the Corona crash damage lists make my wallet tighten up just a little more I won’t even poke at the idea of “what if” I had gone with a brushless electric LMH running on a small collection of seven cell Sanyo HRSC 2600 mah NiMh packs charged up on one (or two!) computer delta peak charges, back in 1996…

All that aside, I need to decide what I want to do at this point for the years to come. Will I still be flying the LMH in another 7 years, maybe. If I have not moved on to something else will I fly a similar amount as in the past, probably. That said, I stand to spend $140 - $200 on a gas solution, depending if I go with the $20 rebuild or the $90 upgrade and how much fuel costs over the next 7 years. The electric solution will run me some $400+ for similar performance over the next 7 years. Price wise, the electrics don’t even compare. The lure of electric is that they are clean, they are quiet, and they are convenient. All of these things appeal to me greatly and are why they may be worth the big bucks. The big plus for the gas side of things is that it is quite cheep in comparison.

Unfortunately at this stage in my life, I think the fact that I sometimes check the seminar schedules to see which ones offer free pizza so I can both eat and pay the rent while I try and finish up my research has pretty much eliminated the electric option. Perhaps after I have some sort of job and the paychecks reputedly associated there to, other options will open up. Truth be told, if I had the cash to drop on an electric setup right now I probably would. If nothing else I would never have to fiddle endlessly with the motor to keep it running right

Thanks for all of your input and humor,

Spiro
Old 05-31-2003, 04:02 AM
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Gas is a little bit more closer to realism too. You ever see a real life size electric helicopter ? I havent, yet. Ive seen an solar powered airplane though. It was flimsy looking and if it would have crashed, it would have looked like what a electric Corona looks like when it smacks the ground. just kidding of course cause its really hard to tear either gas or electric up(at one time).

Spiro: if that is all youve been through since you owned your heli, You are doing really good. ive done replaced all my servos, on a second set of gears on all my servos, im on my second boom , been through about five clutch shoes and bells, several zlinks both tail and mainrotor. three or four main spur gears, two crown gears about four gearboxes, 5-7 tailrotor drive wires, three T/R hollow drive shafts. two mechanical gyros, On my third set of blades, two stock crutches(now flying my own crutch design). 2 stock canopies, two Vmax 6 engines, one piston & sleeve set, now on my Vmax 7 (replaced two defective Vmax7s-didnt cost me) replaced the upper bearing block . Basiclly been flying the tar outta this thing. Alot of my replacements were because of wearing them out. ran four tanks earlier today. Im sure Ill eventually move up to a bigger heli. Im eyeing the century hawk sport. Cant afford to get it right now. Id have to get everything all over again: radio, engine, heli, gyro, etc....So, it looks like its going to be a while unless the tooth fairy happens to drop one by. I gave up on Santa, he hasnt been by my way in years: I just knew he wasnt real. :disappoin :cry: oh well..... Spiro, like me, you gotta go with what the pocket book allows. If youre anything like me, you have to get that aerial fix often.
Old 05-31-2003, 04:17 AM
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fastlash
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You guy's are all screwed up ,, why bother with either??? I want a Micro Turbine, AAHHHH the smell of JP fuel!!!! Or how about a mini four stroke??? with a pull start that you grab with a pair of tweezers!!!
Old 05-31-2003, 04:20 AM
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Spiro
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Fastlash,

Don't joke. I have put some time and cnc machining into a micro turbine concept...



Spiro
Old 05-31-2003, 04:43 AM
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Yargh!

Well I think I can add couple more parts to the list… I was checking a couple of things over and noticed that the clutch shoes were dragging quite badly on the inside of the clutch bell. I took the bell off and saw some hairline fractures at both shoe flex points. A exploratory nudge at one caused it to fall off onto the bench. Further examination of the clutch bell showed the attached pinion to have extremely worn teeth. Nine dollars for a new Vmax6 Clutch shoe set brings the overhaul up to $29, just $60 shy of the Vmax7. I will need to pick up a new $7 clutch bell for either. At this point I am sold on the gas solution, so let me steer this thread back toward its intended purpose.

Rebuild the Vmax6?
Use the money for the Vmax7?
<whispers> both?

Spiro
Old 05-31-2003, 05:29 AM
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The Vmax 7 upgrade comes with new clutch shoe and throttle muffler, heatsink, glow plug and starter cone. Youre getting close to the $90.00
Old 06-03-2003, 01:48 AM
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Joe K
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Default ELE VS GAS

I want an electric so I can fly with out waking up the wife and kid.
BUT I love the smell of nitro. I have been trying to talk my wife into waring it as perfume. No luck yet.
Old 06-03-2003, 08:41 PM
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OMG! JoeK UR Hi-LARIOUS!
Old 06-10-2003, 04:46 PM
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Spiro, have you decided on upgrading or rebuilding yet? I am very interested in how the Vmax7 performs in Iowa weather. My little Cox .051 is running very rich right now, but still seems to have the power needed. Is anyone else out there running a Cox engine in their LMH? Mine is more reliable and easier to keep tuned than any of my bigger engines, (O.S. Max's). I have run about 3 gallons through mine in about 4 years and have never had a bit of problem with it. I can't even find anyone that has those anymore. Anyone know where you could get one now?

Thanks....
Old 06-10-2003, 06:59 PM
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Spiro
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I went with the Vmax7. I am in the middle of rebuilding various worn or bent parts right now and haven't broken in or flown the new engine. I will let you know how things go with the Vmax7 when I do get it in the air. Most likely will do some break in today and flying later this week.

On that note: Does anybody know the bolt size for the Vmax7 crank? I would like to get a prop on there for the break in.

I am pretty impressed that you have one of the older Cox setups. I have never even seen one! I got my LMH right after they went to the Norvel, which was highly touted at the time. I used to fly all kinds of Cox powered planes, mostly 1/2 A control line mouse racer stuff and some free flight. Those engines ran great and I had pretty much zero problems with them. I don’t know how they would hold up to heli duty, but am happy to hear yours is running well. I am just up the road in Ames. Perhaps we should compare notes sometime?

Spiro
Old 06-10-2003, 07:05 PM
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If you are interested in seeing the Cox setup, let me know. It is an relatively small engine compared to the Vmax. Maintaining it is as simple as on the old control line planes. We could get together and compare notes any time. I am in the middle of trying to find clutch shoes for my old Century Ninja Pro Master now with no luck, but I am also working on modifying a Hawk clutch to work in it. It's an oldie and most people hate them, but mine's in great shape and flies great.
Old 06-10-2003, 08:35 PM
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Crashedanyway, can you post some pics of your cox setup and your old century ninja pro master ?
Old 06-10-2003, 08:39 PM
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Yeah, I can post some pics. The engine is out of the Ninja right now, but I can take some pics of it anyway. I take it after reading a lot of your posts, you probably want up-close, detailed photos, am I right? I will get as detailed photos as possible, hopefully by Thursday.

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