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SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

Old 06-16-2005, 02:50 PM
  #26  
Sharpy01
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?


ORIGINAL: can773

I beleive the AMA is the aeroclub in the US, why MAAC is not the Aeroclub in Canada I have no idea....but it would be better for us to be the Aeroclub and collect dues from other organizations than to pay dues to the Aeroclub itself. I cannot beleive that managing those tasks is not within the office capacity....
Damn good question. I've asked the same always got some long-winded speech about history and tradition, blah, blah.

In other words, nobody could or would answer that question. MAAC is by far the largest contributor to ACC and believe we should be using that clout to take control. As far as I can see, the ACC only adds another level of bureaucracy, which translates into more admin costs.

ding, ding,

.........back to your corners fellas

I for one, think Ken has pulled his horns in considerably and was about to compliment him on a reasonably cordial discussion. Man, he even edited a post! You have to give him some "Ukie Slack" on the sarcasm, it's in the blood.

................. after all, miracles are for God and he hasn't been in here to post yet.

Old 06-16-2005, 03:02 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

You guys are slipping Marc, the good cop/bad cop routine is becoming way too transparent.

So.... now you want to go in, guns a-blazing and assume control of the AeroClub eh?

You do realize they are the one contact for FAI for ALL aviation, not just models eh?

You've remarked that MAAC is already doing too many things not model related, now you suggest they should get involved in everything from ballooning to amateur space competitions?[sm=confused.gif]
Old 06-16-2005, 03:10 PM
  #28  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?


FAI is just one tiny facet of aviation in the world, it looks after "aviation sports".

FAI really does not do much elsein aviation, it does not make rules or regulations affecting aviation, does not certify, and has no legal authority, basically they are the big club.

In fact, Canada's largest aviation body, COPA, Canadian Owner's and Pilots Assoc. does not belong to Aero Club of Canada, they may have years ago but I do not believe so.

We could really use input why we need the MAAC Aero Club fee at $16000, if anyone wishes to continue to hurl insults at me, just email me direct at [email protected].
cheers - ken
Old 06-16-2005, 03:15 PM
  #29  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: britbrat
I hope that you're not being condescending -- it sounds like it -- I particularly didn't like the "armchair ideas" thing.
Sorry, condescension not intended, admittedly, I may be unwittingly transferring some frustration from other participants....

ORIGINAL: britbrat
With you guys sitting on $350M worth of land -- you're history, unfortunately. I think that you are looking at big issues that no-one can fix for a believable amount of money. I'm certain that MAAC can provide assistance, within its means, for field support -- it just hasn't been an issue yet, so no serious thought has gone into it.
The point is the same, land in the greater Toronto Area is only available at a huge premium. If you suggest MAAC can/should assist in field retention, then I'm all for it ... I just don't see how.

I liken this to the times I have been on the exec for clubs. There always those in the back who criticise and have some "interesting" suggestions about what "the club" should be doing. These same people fail to offer any sweat equity to make these things happen... this is what I refer to as "armchair quarterbacking:. I'm not suggesting you're one of these same people .... but talk is cheap, internet posting even cheaper as you don't have actually get in anyones face..... if you think MAAC should be doing these things, then bring some action to your suggestion .... or at least bring it to MAAC instead of posting it all over the net as criticism.
Old 06-16-2005, 03:33 PM
  #30  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: kenair
We could really use input why we need the MAAC Aero Club fee at $16000,
You're mixing two issues.

First
- Aero Club membership is required by any organisation that cares to participate in World competition.

Second
- Aero Club membership is expensive

"Foul" you cry, "unfair"
Grow up and enter the real world where most things are expensive and unfair. I had to travel downtown for work today, $26 for parking. Is that fair? [>:]
I'm reasonably sure I pay a LOT more taxes than you, a good portion of those taxes support people like you who choose to live in places where the tax base can't support the infrastructure. Is that fair?[:@]

Now before everyone jumps all over me for that last comment, let me state that I'm all for "spreading the wealth" as long as my "local infrastructure" is covered as well (which it's not). Some people do make me wish I could choose where my so-called "extra wealth" [&o] was directed though.

ORIGINAL: kenair
if anyone wishes to continue to hurl insults at me, just email me direct at [email protected].
cheers - ken
Sandbox rule, learned at an early age (by most) : if you dish it out, be prepared to eat it as well....
Old 06-16-2005, 03:59 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

.........take a deep breath Jim.

wow.

"good cop, bad cop"? ....no such thing, we're all bad.

As far as the ACC, I simply think it's something that needs to be explored. I know it's expensive. I also know that other countries such as the AUSSIE's pay per person so there obviously is another way. And yes, I really don't like the idea of any of my modelling dollars being used to support full-scale aviation. The board was told by Mr. Humphys at an AGM that modellers make up the majority of the FAI world wide! So why wouldn't we use the influence to make some changes? It shouldn't be a sacred cow.

.......and on the Tax issue?
ORIGINAL: Jim

a good portion of those taxes support people like you who choose to live in places where the tax base can't support the infrastructure.
Give me a break. It's S.Ont that continues to support waste and federal corruption in federal politics and you lay that crap out there?
The feds have blown and stolen billions from US taxpayers in the form of sponsorship, gun registy's, leaky subs, HRDC scandal, and on and on.

Jim: it takes approx 25000 taxpayers making 70-80,000 a year their entire 30 year career just to make up for 1 billion in wasted and stolen funds and you try and lay down something like that?


......and the last time I checked, folks living down in Toronto still require electricity, food, minerals and raw materials..
You're way out of line with that BS.

go flying Jim


Old 06-16-2005, 07:20 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
Give me a break. It's S.Ont that continues to support waste and federal corruption in federal politics and you lay that crap out there?
The feds have blown and stolen billions from US taxpayers in the form of sponsorship, gun registy's, leaky subs, HRDC scandal, and on and on.
Last I checked, my name wasn't S.Ont, and I didn't vote Liberal.... try not to generalize, I don't blame Manitoba for Kenair....

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
......and the last time I checked, folks living down in Toronto still require electricity, food, minerals and raw materials..
... and last I checked there were 4.5 million+ people here paying taxes higher than most of the rest of the country for them.... and then some....

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
go flying Jim
Smartest thing said here recently.
Old 06-16-2005, 07:51 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

....taxes are paid according to income, not location.

no breaks up here buddy.

sorry for the generalization, but it sure seems you just lumped us into some kind of welfare state
Old 06-17-2005, 07:24 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
....taxes are paid according to income, not location.
... and disseminated to cover infrastructure disproportionately.

Further, the cost of living in some areas is much higher, requiring higher income, resulting in still (disproportionate) higher taxes (higher tax bracket).

The point is still, in point of illustration to Ken, the world is not fair.
Old 06-17-2005, 11:01 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?


ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
....taxes are paid according to income, not location.
... and disseminated to cover infrastructure disproportionately.

Further, the cost of living in some areas is much higher, requiring higher income, resulting in still (disproportionate) higher taxes (higher tax bracket).

The point is still, in point of illustration to Ken, the world is not fair.
One could quite easily argue the billions to be wasted on Kyoto are directly attributed to high density population areas/ inflated real estate prices, 2 cars needed to make the 1-2 hr commute because you don't actually want to live in the smog.....and on, and on.

Your right, it's not fair, but that isn't an excuse for continuing to do nothing like a herd of mindless sheep.

.......seems more plausable, that your comments are more for derailing a productive debate, than making any points.
Old 06-17-2005, 11:13 AM
  #36  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
One could quite easily argue the billions to be wasted on Kyoto are directly attributed to high density population areas/ inflated real estate prices, 2 cars needed to make the 1-2 hr commute because you don't actually want to live in the smog.....and on, and on.
Yeah, those are my fault too eh?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
Your right, it's not fair, but that isn't an excuse for continuing to do nothing like a herd of mindless sheep.
Ok, so educate this mindless sheep to his options.

In fact, I am doing something ... I've arranged to work from home as often as possible ... so I'm not contributing less to the smog and energy consumption.[8D], I also drive a new 4 banger with some of the lowest emissions on the market for when I do need to commute and I'm considering a hybrid for my next car. What do you drive?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
.......seems more plausable, that your comments are more for derailing a productive debate, than making any points.
You're the one focusing on this one detail of a more involved discussion.....
Old 06-17-2005, 12:33 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?


[quote]ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
One could quite easily argue the billions to be wasted on Kyoto are directly attributed to high density population areas/ inflated real estate prices, 2 cars needed to make the 1-2 hr commute because you don't actually want to live in the smog.....and on, and on.
[/quoteYeah, those are my fault too eh?

You're the one focusing on this one detail of a more involved discussion.....
no, not your fault, just a product of where you "choose to live".

Yeah, your right, focusing too much on less important issues like the environment. Lets's move back to something model airplane related if you're also done with that sidebar?

(man, I am such a left-wing moderate peacemaker.) [>:]
Old 06-17-2005, 03:29 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
Yeah, your right, focusing too much on less important issues like the environment.


First you accuse me of trying to sidebar the discussion with a discussion of environment, then when I point out this is in response to your focus on a subpoint of my response and perhaps we could get back on topic, you infer I'm making light of environmental issues....[sm=confused.gif]

Are you here simply to aimlessly argue?

Sounds like another Monty Python skit....
"...
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
...
"

Old 06-17-2005, 06:04 PM
  #39  
Sharpy01
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

..........good Monty python usage once again.

......by the way, I was trying to be funny with the environmental bit.

You are one tightly wound dude. Chill man.

Remember, it was not I who got your blood boiling.

Old 06-17-2005, 07:55 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?


ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

ORIGINAL: britbrat
I hope that you're not being condescending -- it sounds like it -- I particularly didn't like the "armchair ideas" thing.
Sorry, condescension not intended, admittedly, I may be unwittingly transferring some frustration from other participants....

ORIGINAL: britbrat
With you guys sitting on $350M worth of land -- you're history, unfortunately. I think that you are looking at big issues that no-one can fix for a believable amount of money. I'm certain that MAAC can provide assistance, within its means, for field support -- it just hasn't been an issue yet, so no serious thought has gone into it.
The point is the same, land in the greater Toronto Area is only available at a huge premium. If you suggest MAAC can/should assist in field retention, then I'm all for it ... I just don't see how.

I liken this to the times I have been on the exec for clubs. There always those in the back who criticise and have some "interesting" suggestions about what "the club" should be doing. These same people fail to offer any sweat equity to make these things happen... this is what I refer to as "armchair quarterbacking:. I'm not suggesting you're one of these same people .... but talk is cheap, internet posting even cheaper as you don't have actually get in anyones face..... if you think MAAC should be doing these things, then bring some action to your suggestion .... or at least bring it to MAAC instead of posting it all over the net as criticism.

Jim, I don't want to go much further down this road, but there is somethiong here that bothers me greatly. I think that you are suggesting that unless one is on a club exec, or presumably, in a position within MAAC, one has no right to complain or to criticize the actions of those who are actively part of the organization --- hence the "armchair' thing.

This type of argument just doesn't fly. It is the same thing as saying that unless a citizen & taxpayer is an MP, or MPP, or town councillor, he has no right to criticise the government(s) -- clearly an absurd concept.

In the case of MAAC, there are ~9,000 members & there is not the remotest possibility of all of them belonging directly to the organization. Nonetheless, like taxpayers, each & every one of those MAAC members has an undeniable right to examine MAAC's structure, purpose, operations & plans -- and to critique MAAC as they see fit.

Not everyone can belong to the inner workings of the organization just through weight of numbers alone, nor does everyone have the physical or situational opportunity to participate directly, nor does everyone have the necessary skills to do so. They do, however, have the right (& perhaps duty) to offer their views as to how they like, or dislike what is being done in their name & with their money -- just like taxpayers & citizens do with governmental issues.

I'm going flying
Old 06-17-2005, 07:57 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

Wrong on both points.
First
- Aero Club membership is required by any organisation that cares to participate in World competition.

Second
- Aero Club membership is expen
In South Africa, their MAAK is the SAMAA, SAMAA member buy thier aeroc club memberships directly from their aeroclub, SAMAA does not for ourve $16,000 to the aeroclub like MAAK does.

[link]http://www.samaa.org.za/new_pages/aero_club_fai.shtml[/link]

Aero Club and FAI Licence fees
From January 2004 every SAMAA member who participates in any FAI class
of competition is required to hold a valid FAI Licence and be a fully
paid up member of the Aero Club of South Africa, in addition to valid
SAMAA membership. The following classes are likely to have FAI
competitions during the coming year, including world championships (team
members and team managers), and a few of them will be running team
selection processes:

F2B Control line Stunt
F3A R/C Aerobatics
F3B R/C Multi-task Soaring
F3C R/C Helicopters
F3D R/C Pylon Racing
F3J R/C Thermal Duration
F4C R/C Scale
To aid members in acquiring the above, the SAMAA office will take out
the FAI Licence and Aero Club membership with the AeCSA. Please include
these amounts with your subscription before 31st January.
FAI Licence R138-00
Aero Club membership R185-00
Old 06-18-2005, 10:37 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: britbrat



Jim, I don't want to go much further down this road, but there is somethiong here that bothers me greatly. I think that you are suggesting that unless one is on a club exec, or presumably, in a position within MAAC, one has no right to complain or to criticize the actions of those who are actively part of the organization --- hence the "armchair' thing.

This type of argument just doesn't fly. It is the same thing as saying that unless a citizen & taxpayer is an MP, or MPP, or town councillor, he has no right to criticise the government(s) -- clearly an absurd concept.

In the case of MAAC, there are ~9,000 members & there is not the remotest possibility of all of them belonging directly to the organization. Nonetheless, like taxpayers, each & every one of those MAAC members has an undeniable right to examine MAAC's structure, purpose, operations & plans -- and to critique MAAC as they see fit.

Not everyone can belong to the inner workings of the organization just through weight of numbers alone, nor does everyone have the physical or situational opportunity to participate directly, nor does everyone have the necessary skills to do so. They do, however, have the right (& perhaps duty) to offer their views as to how they like, or dislike what is being done in their name & with their money -- just like taxpayers & citizens do with governmental issues.

I'm going flying
That, my friend was a work of art. Thank you.

They do, however, have the right (& perhaps duty) to offer their views as to how they like, or dislike what is being done in their name & with their money -- just like taxpayers & citizens do with governmental issues.

......lest we become sheep. Amen.
Old 06-20-2005, 07:41 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

MAAC is not the government, that analagy is quite thin.

MAAC is primarily a volunteer organization, as such, the only effective way to affect change is to volunteer. That was one of my points. Don't like how a certain dsicipline is run, get on the committe for that discipline or, at least get in touvch with that committee. Same goes for Zones or MAAC in general.

Spouting off on public websites where those that can affect change may or may not be listening is not only ineffective, it's detrimental to the organization as a whole. That is my point.
Old 06-20-2005, 12:39 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

........but unfortunately Jim, This particular organization has shown that doing exactly as you say;

............ "the only effective way to affect change is to volunteer".........

is ok only if you don't question, or don't dare to disagree with certain interest groups/committees within. When I was on the outside, asking questions, I was told to volunteer and get involved. Obviously, I did...........

That same group then went beyond, "shut up and get involved" and began "how dare you question or try to change any aspects of this organization", "how dare you question the volunteers within the committees" regardless of the facts related to any issues I was involved in?

......the message of "get involved" is lip-service.

The real message I received was, "If you don't make waves and leave things the way they are, then come aboard. If you are getting involved to try and change anything, watch out because there are some within who will go way beyond rational belief as to what they will do to discourage and force you back to the outside."

Old 06-20-2005, 02:46 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

Gotta agree with the Sharpe guy on this one, MAAK has splenty it's fair share of "what maak is" believers that will not stop at anything to resist change and keep things the way they are for their special inerest group.

Classic example is Larkin going outside the board during Reid's Aero Club dealings, despite a board majority vote.
Old 06-20-2005, 03:19 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: kenair
Gotta agree with the Sharpe guy on this one
That's a surprise.

ORIGINAL: kenair
, MAAK has splenty it's fair share of "what maak is" believers that will not stop at anything to resist change and keep things the way they are for their special inerest group.
And that surprises you? Why would I support any change that affects me adversely?

ORIGINAL: kenair
Classic example is Larkin going outside the board during Reid's Aero Club dealings, despite a board majority vote.
I don't know the details here but, there will always be individuals who, either through mis-information or mis-intent, will go outside the rules to accomplish what they feel is necessary. By your own admission, this was done outside the board, so why then would you criticise the board? Is this an example of Ken agreeing with what the board feels is best for MAAC and modellers at large?.... IOW, MAAC working as designed for the good of all?

I don't resist change, I resist changing what works.....
Old 06-20-2005, 10:47 PM
  #47  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

... there will always be individuals who, either through mis-information or mis-intent, will go outside the rules to accomplish what they feel is necessary.
...kind of goes full circle to the beginning of this thread and the reference to the insurance issue being taken outside ..... for what purpose? Because somebody didn't get their way? Lost a majority vote through established process? .....or simply snubbed their nose to established process and the association by walking out of the AGM and not representing that zone's interests?

ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

By your own admission, this was done outside the board, so why then would you criticise the board? Is this an example of Ken agreeing with what the board feels is best for MAAC and modellers at large?.... IOW, MAAC working as designed for the good of all?
This part I don't get? Almost all the problems that are/have been faced by the board come from "outside the board" . Ken was on the board at the time.

When I was on the board, even though a majority of the board took a position on an issue, there was always a group that attacked and did everything possible to disrupt board business even though it was all done according to established policy. The same group that follows me from site to site supposedly defending the current process and policy of the association, but did everything in their power to cirrcumvent it when they didn't agree? I'm curious how would you explain that logic Jim?

That's not defending a system, Jim...........That is protecting personal interest and it's no way to foster and enhance model aviation.

cheers


Old 06-20-2005, 11:55 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
...kind of goes full circle to the beginning of this thread and the reference to the insurance issue being taken outside ..... for what purpose? Because somebody didn't get their way? Lost a majority vote through established process? .....or simply snubbed their nose to established process and the association by walking out of the AGM and not representing that zone's interests?
This is an odd comment coming from you Marc, your goal as ZD of Manitoba was to bring to the forefront issues which you felt needed to be public regardless of others opinion. Now 2 ZD publish information which in their opinion needed to be made public to the membership and you critize them for that?

You honestly cannot believe that knowledge of potential non-existant insurance coverage should have been kept from the membership....for a single day let alone two months. Even to this day has the membership seen the so called re-written policy? No, other than someones word (which in our society doesnt go far) how do we know we are covered? From what I have heard the policy wording is still a bit on the questionable side.

IMO only two members of the board did the right thing in this case, the rest dropped the ball. The membership should have been informed immediately of potential non-existant coverage....the fact that a non-grammatical change to our insurance policy was made indicates that something was indeed wrong with the policy.

Old 06-24-2005, 11:16 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

Yep, your right.....to a certain degree.

I'm all for publishing hard fact and figures. I'm all for the board openly publishing contentious votes and how each ZD voted.

My point to most of this is to point out the obvious hypocracy. Please read and note the question marks. Those are designed to make you think and ask your own questions.

As for the insurance question itself?

Do I think it should have been dealt with quickly? Duh.
Do I take the word of the current executive, our current and long-standing broker over 2 ZD's with a recent history of disenfranchisement and some guy's personal opinion who sold insurance a bunch of years ago before 911 changed the game completely?

I'll stick with my assessment that we currently are covered and were when the question was publically raised. I think it needlessly worried members who had no knowledge of the personalities and BS politics involved.

I guess you need to make your own decision. If you don't think we are covered, then I suggest you head down and purchase what you need or consider HO scale.

Old 06-25-2005, 07:22 AM
  #50  
britbrat
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Default RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?

---HO scale? Do bad girls fly?

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