Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > M.A.A.C.
Reload this Page >

Crash Etiquette

Notices
M.A.A.C. Discuss Model Aeronautics Association of Canada policies, decisions & any other MAAC related topics here.

Crash Etiquette

Old 06-25-2005, 05:00 PM
  #1  
Sharpy01
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (12)
 
Sharpy01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Crash Etiquette

As a spin-off of a negative thread, let's have a little fun with this.

I'll start it off with a bit of repost from the "other" thread.

The amount and timing of the ribbing is proportional to the type, experience, expense and totality of the devestation. For example, a quarter scale scratch-built deserves at least understanding silence up until the peices are bagged and back in the vehicle while a .40 Arf is fair game during the return "walk-of-shame". This must of course be tempered with how long a person has been in the hobby. Somebody who is realively new and just destroyed their only plane get's sympathy and support until such plane is replaced and successfully flown again.
Old 06-25-2005, 06:19 PM
  #2  
jhelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Headingley, MB, CANADA
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

The amount and timing of the ribbing is proportional to the type, experience, expense and totality of the devestation. For example, a quarter scale scratch-built deserves at least understanding silence up until the peices are bagged and back in the vehicle ...
... unless the crash was preceeded by the pilot stating in a loud voice "Watch this!" at which point ribbing may begin immediately upon contact with the ground.

JH
Old 06-25-2005, 08:59 PM
  #3  
Sharpy01
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (12)
 
Sharpy01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Throwing the transmitter is grounds for immediate yellow card followed by a legal measurement to determine if any records have been set.
Old 06-25-2005, 10:32 PM
  #4  
jhelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Headingley, MB, CANADA
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Pilots must replace their own divots - points will be deducted for having a spotter do it.

Old 06-26-2005, 07:57 PM
  #5  
Jason Holdaway
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Strathroy, ON, CANADA
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

that's funny. I've had wrecks where I'd have to bring in top soil.
Old 06-27-2005, 12:29 PM
  #6  
britbrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette


ORIGINAL: Jason Holdaway

that's funny. I've had wrecks where I'd have to bring in top soil.
You fly wrecks that should be covered in topsoil.
Old 06-27-2005, 12:40 PM
  #7  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

I know the intention in this thread is for fun but, it brings up a question I've wondered about for some time. So please bear with me while I wax serious....

I've dabbled in combat , and observed the new 3D SPAD fad. I've seen things that leave me a bit bit concerned....

I observed aircraft that had been subjected to, shall we say "high impact situations" that, after some minor repair (new propeller, CA repair, replacement fin etc.) a wiggle of the sticks to ensure some modicum of control and tossed back in the air for the next round.

When seeing this, I've asked about having the radio equipment checked out a little more thoroughly before committing to flight once agina and was scoffed at....

I know, if I "plant" one of my regular aircraft, as a minimum, I send the Rx off to be thoroughly checked out before I trust it to another flight. Not only because I care for my aircraft but, I also care about the safety of others.... For example, I've seen fractured crystals work fine... until subjected to the right vibrations....

Am I being overly safety conscious or, should I be concerned?
Old 06-27-2005, 01:08 PM
  #8  
britbrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Since we're being serious, I agree with you in principle (don't tell anyone else) about a thorough check-up. However, the real world doesn't work that way. Many modellers have a single Tx & RX set & are not prepared to have it out of action for an unknown period of time, plus incur the expense of shipping, plus inspection, when an engine-on bench test demonstrates that it is working acceptably well.

I have many RX sets, so I not going to be seriously inconvenienced by a "time-out", but sometimes I send them away for examination & sometimes I don't. I use my judgement as to whether or not I should be worried about the integrity of the Rx. So far I've never been wrong in the case of the units that I kept in service --- and interestingly, so far I've never had one of the "sent-away" units that needed repair. I am not suggesting that there can't be hidden damage, but I have not personally experienced it.

In a couple of situations I have deliberately destroyed Rx units that showed visible signs of damage to the case, rather than send them away.

To sum up -- I don't think that you need to be excessively alarmed, as long as a good visual inspection shows no damage & a thorough engine-on function check turns out to be OK --- and as long as you listen to the inner voice that is warning you that the "prang" was serious enough to warrant an Rx inspection by the manufacturer.

P.S. Flight packs are so cheap these days that if you are really concerned -- dump it.
Old 06-27-2005, 01:21 PM
  #9  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

I guess my concern is with the behaviour we are imparting to the new modellers as they observe our behaviour.
Many have little idea how fragile our equipment, especially crystals are....

I guess if I were to become more involved in combat I would have to consider crystals as being a consumable in a crash situation.... but I'm not convinced that would cover my concern.[sm=confused.gif]
Old 06-27-2005, 01:42 PM
  #10  
britbrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Jason should get involved in this discussion, as he has had inumerable violent crashes. By his own admission, he can wreck anything, so his comments on the frequency & liklihood of Rx failure would be enlightening, & very much worth listening to.

Jason -------????
Old 06-27-2005, 05:44 PM
  #11  
Jason Holdaway
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Strathroy, ON, CANADA
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

I've only ever lost one crystal/reciever. I'm not even positive it was gone, nor did I try to test it. It was obvious to me by the damage to the reciever that there was a possibility it could be damaged. When in the slightest doubt, I will put the plane in. no exceptions. I think they must make the crystals a lot better than they used too. The modern day combat planes are made really well, and can take some serious abuse. I am, and will be an advocate of getting rid of the land after midair rule in combat (instead of the line marshall making sensible desicions to call in planes involved in serious midairs and not love taps) When building a combat ship, I protect the reciever as much as possible, completely wrapped in foam, and lots of it. firewall, foam, fuel tank, foam, battery, foam, reciever completely wrapped in foam, and not the junk they send in the flight packs eithier. Never put a battery pack behind a reciever!
Old 06-28-2005, 08:17 AM
  #12  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

All good stuff, but I'm still concerned.
Crystals are not man-made (although they can be artificially grown now I understand), the technology has not improved since God invented the crystal. The fact remains, they are quite fragile, even the wire we use to connect (suspend) them is finer than human hair.

You may have experienced excellent luck with crystals but, any engineer will tell you, you can destroy one with the impact of a finger flick. What's worse, they can go intermittent and appear to be working until subjected to the correct frequency of vibration. I've destroyed one by knocking it off my workbench onto a cement floor.
I've also seen crashes with unknown causes until I tapped the back of the receiver and saw servo movement in resonse (typical cracked crystal behaviour). Almost always a result of a Rx moved from a wreck to another aircraft. Range test often work, even with engine on ... first rapid +/- G maneuver and oops "I'm hit".

Old 06-28-2005, 08:31 AM
  #13  
Wayne Miller
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DrumboOntario, CANADA
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Hi,

Any time I have a flying failure (better than saying crash ) I'm always concerned about hidden servo or receiver damage. I've seen both work OK without vibration, then fail when under vibration. My rule is to do a ground range check with the servo and receiver under vibrations - this could be full throttle in a plane, or by using a hand vibrator with a helper walking away with the Tx. If it passes OK under vibration, I'm comfortable flying again.

I also check servo gears for smooth operation and missing teeth.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller
Old 06-28-2005, 09:34 AM
  #14  
britbrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette


ORIGINAL: Wayne Miller

Hi,

Any time I have a flying failure (better than saying crash ) I'm always concerned about hidden servo or receiver damage. I've seen both work OK without vibration, then fail when under vibration. My rule is to do a ground range check with the servo and receiver under vibrations - this could be full throttle in a plane, or by using a hand vibrator with a helper walking away with the Tx. If it passes OK under vibration, I'm comfortable flying again.

I also check servo gears for smooth operation and missing teeth.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller

That's pretty much what I do.
Old 06-28-2005, 11:32 AM
  #15  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

I guess we found where we differ britbrat....

After a 'non subtle ground impact', I send everything off to be checked. I've had circuit boards and crystals replace in equipment that appeared to be functioning correctly, even with vibration tests (I used an old unbalanced jig saw).

To me, it's not about risking the aircraft (which I do care about), it's about safety. I couldn't live with myself causing an injury by flying with previously crashed equipment that I hadn't bothered to have checked out.

Combat is a strange animal to me. I do fly it occasionally (was quite popular at my home club) but stopped when I observed what I refer to as the SPAD attitude ... replace the prop and chuck back in the air.[X(]
Old 06-28-2005, 11:46 AM
  #16  
can773
My Feedback: (1)
 
can773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posts: 2,286
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

I send every last peice of radio equipement I have annually for service....I have not crashed in many years....so the wear is simply from flying.

You would be amazed at what is replaced, servo gears, servo motors, RX filters, pots, TX gimbals, antennas cables the list goes on. I have never had a serious failure and few hiccups, but its quite surprising what does not "pass the test" when the equipment is serviced. My receivers function quite perfectly to my standards but often have parts replaced during service.
Old 06-28-2005, 11:49 AM
  #17  
britbrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

I don't think that we differ much at all about the importance of safety -- we just differ on the methodology of assessing risk & the management of that risk (if any).

I can't argue with your approach -- it works (so far). You transfer your "worries" to the manufacturer, or testing facility -- one that hopefully applies due dilligence.

My approach also works --- zero failures -- ever (so far). I use my own test methods & apply my own judgement (due dilligence).

Risk analysis & perception is a world unto itself, & the associated statistics can be made to say anything.

You and I use different personal standards & procedures -- with the same final result --- but we both apply a process.

I'm much more concerned about individuals that don't use any process at all, either from total ignorance, or total disregard.

The crashed combat planes aren't quite "chucked back into the air" -- they are subjected to empirical flight testing, away from the spectators & other fliers, before being allowed back into the fray. Again, Jason could elaborate on that process --- Jason??
Old 06-28-2005, 12:45 PM
  #18  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

ORIGINAL: britbrat
I don't think that we differ much at all about the importance of safety -- we just differ on the methodology of assessing risk & the management of that risk (if any).
Things that don't show up to most 'empirical tests', like an output transister being out of spec, or a cracked pcb, concern me enough to warrant continuing this process.
Old 06-28-2005, 03:35 PM
  #19  
Jason Holdaway
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Strathroy, ON, CANADA
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

ORIGINAL: britbrat

The crashed combat planes aren't quite "chucked back into the air" -- they are subjected to empirical flight testing, away from the spectators & other fliers, before being allowed back into the fray. Again, Jason could elaborate on that process --- Jason??
The reality of it is that any plane having a "decent" mid-air is not going to be back in the air the same day anyway, and will have to be checked out, usually disassembled, repaired, set up and test flown again. You can't fly a plane at the competition if it hasn't been test flown. As for "love taps" (this is when the pursuit craft ends up turning tighter and the planes end up side by side and tapping the wings) I don't think you should even have to land. I (and many other) pilots use small dowels for the wing mounting, so that in a "normal" midair, you'll lose the wing. A lot of us have the wing tethered to the engine through the fuse. The tether is often wound around the fuel line to pull it off if the wing comes off. It's quit surprising how slowy the airplane comes down. My rocket with a parachute comes down faster. The airplane that will survive the longest is the one built to absorb an impact. As for servos and stuff, I only use the standard BB servos. I do have some HS 81's that I quite using for anything other then throttle because they are junk. I got sick of replacing the gears. Mind you I can probably do it in under 10 minutes now. I do think that Jim has a valid concern if he sees people just throwing on a new prop without checking anything over after anything more than a love tap. I don't actually mount my reciever to the airplane. It's simply "press fit" in the foam. It will see some rapid decelleration, but rarely a direct jolt
Old 06-28-2005, 11:06 PM
  #20  
4*60
My Feedback: (41)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Shuswap, BC,
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

You would be amazed at what is unecessarily replaced or claimed replaced but not. Come on guys if you send it in they will bill. Just an opinion based on service industry knowledge. You can't afford to service equipment without repairs. Why do you think the auto dealer does a 30 point inspection. They will find something wrong most of the time, even if it isn't.
Old 06-29-2005, 07:33 AM
  #21  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

That's not been my experience with Horizon, in fact, they have often replace items free of charge.

For example, I sent in one of my PCM10 receivers that was in a crash that actually broke a corner of the case off (totaled my Raptor heli ). They found the receiver to be functioning perfectly and replaced the case free of charge![8D]
Old 06-29-2005, 09:18 AM
  #22  
can773
My Feedback: (1)
 
can773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posts: 2,286
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

ORIGINAL: 4*60

Why do you think the auto dealer does a 30 point inspection. They will find something wrong most of the time, even if it isn't.
Me thinks you need to try a different dealer! Mine (Heninger Toyota) doesn't do that...
Old 06-29-2005, 10:57 AM
  #23  
britbrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Are we losing track here? I'm not suggesting that Jim change his carefull practices, & I'm not worried about my own, or Jason's. There are no statistics whatsoever that indicate a problem with the safety practices of combat flying in Canada, or in the USA, despite somewhat different practices there.

Those of us here are using various systems of examination, analysis & remediation, as required by due dilligence. I think that real risk comes from those who don't follow good practice, & we should be educating students from the ground up to follow at least some dilligent practice, rather arguing about who's practice is best.
Old 06-29-2005, 11:19 AM
  #24  
Jim_McIntyre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Agreed.

I'll only add that we often teach by example, and the audience is not necessarily limited to the latest round of students.
Old 06-29-2005, 11:37 AM
  #25  
Wayne Miller
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DrumboOntario, CANADA
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Crash Etiquette

Hi,

At the beginning of this thread, Sharpy01 said lets have a little fun with a negative situation, and it was kinda fun.

Part way through the thread it was hijacked. I keep thinking this was not fair to Sharpy01, if you wanted to discuss technical issues or a specific proplem you probably should have started a new thread, instead of taking over his thread, changing the mood and the subject.

Sorry if I put a wet blanket on things, but I just thought it was a little unfair and I should mention it.

Wayne

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.