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Will higher fees mean less members?

Old 10-13-2005, 08:37 AM
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Sharpy01
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Default Will higher fees mean less members?

Discussion about the increase in fees around the cyberworld has been centering around whether we are getting value for the price, but let's get down to the bottom line.

Will the increase affect our membership numbers?

I doubt anyone believes that our numbers will increase, but will we be able to maintain or are we going lose a significant number from out usual 12 or so thousand?

I need it to fly because I fly at a club and like to travel here and there, but I wonder if anyone has compared sanctioned club members to total membership to see how many hold a membership even when they do not belong to a club?

(For the record, I agree with the increase as long a a significant portion of funds generated are being dumped into a contingency/rainy-day fund and doesn't wind up getting used here and there for "feel good" stuff and events. I'm not interested in contributing to some socialist agenda to accumulate funds and distribute them to back as the board of the day sees fit.......sorrry, too many years of the feds with their hands in my pocket because they know better than I how to spend my money....... yes, quite bitter)
Old 10-13-2005, 11:50 AM
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britbrat
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

I can only guess at what will happen in our own club -- there's trouble in River City.

Our own club fees are probably going to double, partly to pay back the cost of the new MAAC field layout requirements. The higher MAAC membership cost is an additional annoyance/burden to the members & I predict that we will lose several members as a result of the aggregate increase in membership expenses.
Old 10-13-2005, 12:35 PM
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Applehoney
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Personally I have no quibble with the increased fees - it's still worth every penny, and more...

However, decades ago .. in England ... the SMAE (as was) slashed the membership fee more than 50%: some of us were dragged kicking and screaming into this new arrangement, thinking it was financial suicide. Membership recruiting took off like a rocket ....

I'm not urging a similar act from MAAC - I really do not see how $75 a year should deter anyone in this day and age when costs of virtually all organisations and services are far higher. Isn't insurance alone, under a buck and a half a week, well worth the price?

Let's not be pikers....
Old 10-13-2005, 01:03 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Gentlemen;
We are speculating here I know ... but I would assume that we will loose a few of the fence sitters. Those people that have a plane in the basement and show up once or twice a year just to say that they belong.

I beleive that the true RC Modellers will just take it in their stride (with a healthy amount of grumbling ). After all once you step back and look at the BIG PICTURE the cost of MAAC is quite reasonable - we just don't like to admit it. - It's a human nature thing...
Old 10-13-2005, 01:28 PM
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Hughes500E
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

I am sick of hearing guys complain about the increase. I hope some do quit
(sorry, but its honest)

Old 10-13-2005, 02:43 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

No apologies necessary, I tend to feel the same ... about some....

Kindly tell me what other association you can join for $75 and receive $5,000,000 liability insurance effective for most of the freeworld, and National representation to the FAI, and archive research services, and government representation, and a magazine and, and, and....
Old 10-13-2005, 04:41 PM
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kenair
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

The amout of the fee is reflective of the minority envisioning a maac no one particpates in.

For established modellers, it is less that a cup of coffee a day.

Tell a rookie he has to come up with around $150.00 (club and maac fee) to fly the first year, ouch!


If MAAC is so good as you say why not have a basic insurance membership with only the insurance and no voting rights at $25.00 per year

then say the regular membership at $100.00, if MAAC is a great as you say then there should be no problem people jumping from the $25 fee to the $100 fee. - no?


Less members - yes! we'll see.
Old 10-13-2005, 05:18 PM
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britbrat
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Now I'm annoyed. [>:]

Hughes 500 gave a revealing answer to a question that nobody asked, & Jim has agreed with his answer -- he even expressed the same odious sentiment -- which is entirely irrelevant to the original question. Nobody wants to know if either of you guys want particular members to leave either MAAC, or modelling. That is a poor attitude at best & will do little to foster fellowship or enthusiasm for either MAAC or the hobby.

We may be interested, however, if you actually answer the question that was asked, & venture a polite opinion on whether or not the dues increase will reduce MAAC membership.

Old 10-13-2005, 05:38 PM
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kenair
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

There is TONS of Enthusiam for the hobby ,

There is no enthusiam for MAAC, like I keep saying - MAAC does not connect with the majority, maac culture is stuck in the 60's.

Chew on this - membership for guys that fly real planes is less that for MAAC members that fly toy airplanes.

RAA membership $50.00 + tax [link=http://www.raa.ca/article.php?sid=53]RAA Canada[/link]http://www.raa.ca/article.php?sid=53

COPA $50.00 + tax [link=https://media5.magma.ca/www.copanational.org/membership/membershiprenewal.htm]COPA[/link]

Cdn Ballon Association $ 60 + tax. [link=http://www.aeroclub.ca/cba/n2/member.htm]Cdn Ballon Assoc[/link]

Ultralight Pilot Assoc of Canada $40.00 [link]https://secure.upac.ca/join.php[/link]


The first ones to pack in the hobby are all the do gooders that say, I'll pay more, I support this and I support that ......blah blah blah,, seen it happen all the time at the club level.


Old 10-13-2005, 06:01 PM
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jhelps
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

ORIGINAL: kenair

There is TONS of Enthusiam for the hobby ,

There is no enthusiam for MAAC, like I keep saying - MAAC does not connect with the majority, maac culture is stuck in the 60's.

Chew on this - membership for guys that fly real planes is less that for MAAC members that fly toy airplanes.

RAA membership $50.00 + tax [link=http://www.raa.ca/article.php?sid=53]RAA Canada[/link]http://www.raa.ca/article.php?sid=53

COPA $50.00 + tax [link=https://media5.magma.ca/www.copanational.org/membership/membershiprenewal.htm]COPA[/link]

Cdn Ballon Association $ 60 + tax. [link=http://www.aeroclub.ca/cba/n2/member.htm]Cdn Ballon Assoc[/link]

Ultralight Pilot Assoc of Canada $40.00 [link]https://secure.upac.ca/join.php[/link]


The first ones to pack in the hobby are all the do gooders that say, I'll pay more, I support this and I support that ......blah blah blah,, seen it happen all the time at the club level.


One tiny little thing you forgot to mention ... at least some of the above (have not checked them all - OK did a check - the only quoted price for insurance is for the ultralights and they say it can be arranged for "as low as 175 per year") do not include insurance. Please feel free to contact a broker and see what it costs for a light single, a light twin, or if you can get it at all, for a plane on floats. If you extract our insurance portion we are likley in line with the above.

Ken I have always wondered your source of information when you use the term "Most" in relation to what MAAC members want? In a 12000 member organization I would suggest "most" begins at 8 or 9 thousand. Have you contacted that many? I would suggest (based on no contact what-so-ever mind you) that in fact "most" MAAC members don't care about the $75.00. Are we going to lose members? Maybe... Enough to hurt the organization big time ... time will tell.

Jeff H
Old 10-13-2005, 06:47 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

ORIGINAL: kenair


If MAAC is so good as you say why not have a basic insurance membership with only the insurance and no voting rights at $25.00 per year

then say the regular membership at $100.00, if MAAC is a great as you say then there should be no problem people jumping from the $25 fee to the $100 fee. - no?


Less members - yes! we'll see.
So your $25 fee is covering the insurance costs.....how do you plan on paying the office staff for their time, the building, the postage and all the other services that are required for ALL members? How do you plan on mailing out the required documents that industry canada requires for our organization? Or the travel for the ZD's etc to the AGM?

I think you will find the membership costs for those services is a huge bulk of the $75. Lets say the non-essential part costs $120000/yr (maybe it does I dont know or really care)......thats $10/yr/member. So here goes, I will spend $100/yr and you spend $65/yr, and all the extra money for the higher memberships goes back to ONLY those members and you are not allowed to ***** about it. Say 5000 members spend the extra $35....thats $175000/yr, in other words its a better deal for us.

As a lower class member you may not participate in competition sanctioned events in Canada or the US, you may not hold positions on committees related or involved in competitive events, you may not vote on issues related to competitive events or have any say or voting power over upper class monies and the direction, spending, or use otherwise. You may not associate, talk to, look at, fly with, drink beer with, or any other like activity with upper class members.

The budget is in the MAAC mag....go back get your calculator and do some math.
Old 10-13-2005, 07:36 PM
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Applehoney
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

>The first ones to pack in the hobby are all the do gooders that say, I'll pay more, I support this and I support that ......

Really, Ken? So, one may assume - by the parameters you quote above - that you'll always be with us for a lifetime......

However, as somebody who supports this, supports that and has never quibbled about paying fees that are more than reasonable for the benefits one receives .... I've been constantly active in this hobby for over sixty years...... That hardly equates with your assertion.

Old 10-13-2005, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

ORIGINAL: jhelps



Ken I have always wondered your source of information when you use the term "Most" in relation to what MAAC members want? In a 12000 member organization I would suggest "most" begins at 8 or 9 thousand. Have you contacted that many?

Jeff H
Jeff

Didnt you know that Ken travels the country and quietly interviewing virtually all MAAC members nationwide? He is the most knowledgable person in the country on topics of "what the members want".

Although for some reason he managed to miss secretly interviewing me and anyone I know
Old 10-13-2005, 09:08 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Gentlemen:

I think there is no doubt that we are going to lose members because of the price increase, for everyone there is a breaking point so to speak. This is unfortunate, but what is really regrettable is that some in the posts above are opening saying 'good riddance'. This is a sentiment that is likely left unspoken.

Most that leave will join the other substantial number of modelers in this country that are already flying without the benefit of club membership or insurance. They will not complain about the price, they will quietly vote with their wallets. Hopefully they will stay in the hobby.

I personally do not have an opinion on the fee structure, but then who wouldn't like to pay less. That said, there are bills and salaries to be paid and if $75 will take care of that so be it.

Ron
Old 10-13-2005, 10:23 PM
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jhelps
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

I was about to say " The Bottom line is" however that would make me omnipotent and I'm not, so I will say ...

This is indeed a democratic organization therefore we should trust our executive or vote to remove them. If we trust them then we should also trust that the 75.00 fee has been carefully weighed and arrived at for reasonably rational reasons. On the other hand if as Ken says the majority just want insurance then instead of quitting (as has been suggested here) it should be very easy to get 50% + 1 of the membership (it doesn't even need a huge majority) to attend zone meetings in every zone (in fact you would only need to make it happen in 8 or so to swing things) and vote in ZD's that would form a completely new BOD to make the changes apparently "most" members want. Indeed with access to the internet it should be very easy to organize such a campaign. Why is this not taking place? Because as I said before I believe "most" people are reasonably satisfied with the status quo, maybe its not perfect but apparently it is good enough.

I would suggest that we need to look beyond the $75.00 to find out if there truely is a dues or other annoyance related reason folks are departing (While I have maintained my MAAC and will continue to pay club dues - I did not fly once this year other things took over at this point in time see www.m38jeepproject.com) or is it simply the normal ingress and departure from the hobby. While the claim has been made that dues are causing folks to leave MAAC and organized clubs to fly uninsured on private land, it is just as easy to say that rules, or national or local politics caused it as well. The truth is we simply don't know.

Jeff H

Old 10-13-2005, 11:25 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Good points Jeff, I agree with you, there is more to the whole picture than just the cost of MAAC. The reason we have the numbers of fellows flying without club/MAAC membership is likely a combination of the following: 1) park flyers can be flown anywhere (and there are A LOT of them) (2) club dues, $50 - $75 (3) club initiation dues (can be $100 or more!) ....add into this the MAAC dues and the fellow that wants to fly his $200 park flyer could easily pay more for his 'first year' dues than the his plane is worth.

I also think that the increase in gas, heating costs, etc will also eat into modeling budgets, therby affecting club and MAAC memberships. Even if the disposable $'s are available, there is still the feeling that things are tighter financially because of the larger heating, electrical and gas bills.

In watching all the discussions over the last 3 months or so I have come to the conclusion that $75 is likely a fair price to pay, but for others there will be a limit where it all stops.

Ron
Old 10-13-2005, 11:40 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Now I'm annoyed.
Most unfortunate bud! Like I said, it is only the truth. Like so many have pointed out, we have no real idea why SOME members are so negative or how many share the same atitude however, could it be possible that these same negative members are responsible or partly responsible for scaring away new members? Lets face it, every club has least one hard knocker, multiply that by the amount of MAAC sanctioned fields over the nation and it is a fairly large number! I'm not sure about everywhere, but I can remember at least 3 members in my club that walked due to one *****hole!
I say let the whiners go!
Sorry, just being honest!
I care not to make a simple observation, of course an increase in dues will reflect numbers, I went above that Just not sure if the reflection will be negative or positive
Not sure how many park flyers are making their choice due to an experience or simply lack of knowledge [X(]
Old 10-14-2005, 06:55 AM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

I say let the whiners go!
they are going thanks to people like you, one thing I noticed about MAAC over the years, the MAAC culture breeds an intolerance to anyone who is not pro to the current maac establishment.


So your $25 fee is covering the insurance costs.....how do you plan on paying the office staff for their time, the building, the postage and all the other services that are required for ALL members? How do you plan on mailing out the required documents that industry canada requires for our organization? Or the travel for the ZD's etc to the AGM?
.


why you will Chad and all the others who have said it's less than a cub of coffee a day and I would gladly pay more.

Each year these strong supporters say this malarkey and the MAAC donation amount hovers around $2000.


Thank God some people quibble, there are enough people sitting on their hands in this world.
Old 10-14-2005, 07:23 AM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

What Hughes500E said ... there are members I would not miss, I think they cost us more members than any small dues increase.

The simple fact is everything costs more over time, a dues increase should be expected. It's when you fail to action this, that you get hit with reality at some point down the road and have to implement a catch-up increase.

As for Ken's ongoing attempts to speak for "the majority of MAAC members" ... well, he missed me and everyone I fly with. You have to give him some credit though, his rants have made it to the campfires at the some of the larger meets I've been to ... mostly as entertainment. I think I'm going to sponsor a prize at Kitchener for Kenair impersonation next year.

==================
Can you spot Kenny in this pic?

Old 10-14-2005, 07:28 AM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Looks like a maac zone meeting to me and I'm not wearing glasses.

or it could be a MAAC "sit in" at a Becel conference.
Old 10-14-2005, 07:38 AM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

LOL.......... you guyz is funyz.

Actually looks like the entire crowd at the last Toronto based AGM I attended. If we were to judge the interest of the organization compared to regional density and compare it to AGM attendance figures................. The GTA and Southern Ont. would be on the bottom of the pile.
Old 10-14-2005, 08:36 AM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

post #19 made my morning!....thanks Jim!!....ron
Old 10-14-2005, 09:51 AM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

ORIGINAL: kenair




So your $25 fee is covering the insurance costs.....how do you plan on paying the office staff for their time, the building, the postage and all the other services that are required for ALL members? How do you plan on mailing out the required documents that industry canada requires for our organization? Or the travel for the ZD's etc to the AGM?
.


why you will Chad and all the others who have said it's less than a cub of coffee a day and I would gladly pay more.

Each year these strong supporters say this malarkey and the MAAC donation amount hovers around $2000.


Thank God some people quibble, there are enough people sitting on their hands in this world.
Ken you still have not answered how your "$25/$100" membership fee will cover the costs to run the association for the majority.....in other words you need to run the association on $25 for 12,000 members which is only $300K and we know today that half of that is gone to insurance, and the other to the office. So how do you intend on paying for the rest? If you want to have a two teir membership then only the second tier gets the extra money, and the base $25 fee that all members pay must cover the costs of running the rec. part of the association....that is what you keep asking for, so explain how to accomplish it.

Go ahead and crank out ideas but at least base them on some form of reality, your ideas would have a lot more credibility.

MAAC could cost $500 a year I would still join......life costs get used to it

Besides my provincial rebate should cover my MAAC dues for the next 5 years LOL


Old 10-14-2005, 12:36 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

they are going thanks to people like you, one thing I noticed about MAAC over the years, the MAAC culture breeds an intolerance to anyone who is not pro to the current maac establishment.

Another fine example of mentality and its ability to fuel what is going on in the organization, you're assuming. Dear Ken, we can lead a horse to water but we can not make it drink nor do I push them into it Why would you choose to turn a simple honest statement into an agenda?

If members (given the fact majority did rule in regards to the dues increase) have problems with the structure, then they need to get involved. Attend AZM and AGM's but in the end if they CHOOSE to leave, I'm not sure it will be negative.


I am for MAAC my friend! I will help support the majority but I will also listen and help protect the rights of the minority!
To impose anything on me other than freedom to share an opinion is wrong!


Old 10-14-2005, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: Will higher fees mean less members?

Re: dues increases

I still think that $75 is a reasonable fee for what we get from MAAC, even if we are only after the insurance. In short a good deal.

That said, a 35% increase in one shot was/is likely a bit tough for some (and rightly so) to digest. In retrospect we all know that annual smaller increases would have been a better choice, but that opportunity has left the station and we can only look forward.

Hypothetically speaking, (and no one knows for sure how the membership will be affected), lets assume for the sake of argument that we lose 5% or 600 paying members which equals $45,000 in revenue. Expenses will not go down, soooo.....how will the $45K shortfall be made up?...with another REQUIRED annual increase of course. Then we lose some more because of the new increase in fees and then it's 'here we go again'. I don't think it would be an overstatement to say that this is a slippery slope that needs to be managed very carefully.

I sincerely hope that the above scenario is fiction just like Chad's $500 per year comment. At $500 per year in todays $'s the organization would cease to exist overnight.

Ron Oscar

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