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Club requirement for insurance

Old 02-28-2006, 10:53 AM
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Mentor34
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Default Club requirement for insurance

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some of the older flyers can enlighten the subject as to the intent of the clause.

This whole deal about flying on property with permission giving the flyers entitlement to MAAC insurance, I think is being MISUSED/MISINTERPRETED AS INTENDED..

I understand that this clause was for rural areas where LESS THAN the required amount of people to form a club sanctioned by MAAC can still fly and be covered by insurance iF :they had permission from the landowner.

Doesn't MAAC's bylaws have a required number to become a club? The answer is YES.

Therfore "THIS CLAUSE CANNOT BE USED FOR GROUP LARGER THAN THE REQUIRED NUMBER MEMBERS NEEDED TO FORM A CLUB"
This group would NOW automatically fall under the clause for requirements under MAAC as a club and follow ALL guidelines through MAAC.
They would NO-LONGER BE ABLE TO UTILIZE THE LANDOWNER'S PERMISSION" clause

If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I do believe that was the INTENT of that clause.....
Old 02-28-2006, 01:16 PM
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Donovan Dow
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

Good Afternoon Mentor34

Clause?

Please explain further.
thanks

don dow
Old 02-28-2006, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

I'm trying to download the information from the MAAC site but it keeps saying "the page I requested is unavailable".
I'm not sure if the problem is this computer at work or the MAAC site.
Can someone locate the bylaw and post it here that shows the requirements to become a club affiliated with MAAC.
Please and thankyou?.
Old 02-28-2006, 01:40 PM
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Donovan Dow
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

http://www.maac.ca/

Afternoon Mentor34, Yes Maac does have this bit about no trespassing for the Maac insurance to kick in. I am still missing your point. Like no free lunch. Please provide more details.

thanks
don dow
Old 02-28-2006, 02:24 PM
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Mentor34
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

Well basically CAC cannot put on an event without insurance and without MAAC BOD approval to be a club,........ the CAC cannot use the "TRESPASSING" clause (AS YOU CALL IT) to get insurance through MAAC. They have more than the required amount of members to use the "TRESPASSING" clause.
So until CAC properly forms a CLUB through the proper channels and follows ALL MAAC guidelines, they are not entitled to put on events and classify them as NAT's or QUALIFIER's for other NAT's.
So just because you are a MAAC or AMA member, it will not allow you to perform at the CAC Championships LEGALLY?

That's why the proper intent of the "TRESPASSING" clause be defined.

This is the reason for posting the original thread. I think the intent of that clause is being MISUSED/MISINTERPRETED to get around following the proper channels and guidelines set-out by MAAC.

JMHO but I was hoping that someone from the executive or past members could prove or dis-prove the intended meaning of that clause.
Old 02-28-2006, 03:56 PM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


ORIGINAL: Mentor34

Well basically CAC cannot put on an event without insurance and without MAAC BOD approval to be a club,........ the CAC cannot use the "TRESPASSING" clause (AS YOU CALL IT) to get insurance through MAAC. They have more than the required amount of members to use the "TRESPASSING" clause.
So until CAC properly forms a CLUB through the proper channels and follows ALL MAAC guidelines, they are not entitled to put on events and classify them as NAT's or QUALIFIER's for other NAT's.
So just because you are a MAAC or AMA member, it will not allow you to perform at the CAC Championships LEGALLY?

That's why the proper intent of the "TRESPASSING" clause be defined.

This is the reason for posting the original thread. I think the intent of that clause is being MISUSED/MISINTERPRETED to get around following the proper channels and guidelines set-out by MAAC.

JMHO but I was hoping that someone from the executive or past members could prove or dis-prove the intended meaning of that clause.

The CAC can run any event they want with their own insurance coverage. MAAC or AMA coverage is not going to cover you at their event so they have their own coverage. It's every fliers duty to be sure the event has good first party coverage to protect them as a flier. If something was to happen I would bet anyone involved(organizers, pilots and airport owners) would be named in the lawsuit. This can happen to any of us at any event. I would want to see that I am covered if something happens. They have some good experienced people organizing the event and will be putting safety first. Accidents can happen thats why we have insurance. If something does happen I would not be counting on MAAC insurance coverage to help me.

The CAC can be used as qualifiers for private events such as Top Gun. They may not be able to be qualifiers for international events that they are not part of.

The CAC is an interesting idea. Having a large event every year is a good idea. There does not seem to be enough support(in organizing) and interest for MAAC to finace such an event(the reporting mess of 2005 didn't help gain support). The big problem the CAC has is the image in many members eyes with the way it was started. There are some very dedicated members who will do a great job. They seem to be staying out the PR nightmare thats happening. I wish them luck and hope that maybe with a new SW zone director we can get some answers and go back to flying this summer.
Old 02-28-2006, 05:19 PM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance



The CAC can run any event they want with their own insurance coverage. MAAC or AMA coverage is not going to cover you at their event so they have their own coverage. It's every fliers duty to be sure the event has good first party coverage to protect them as a flier. If something was to happen I would bet anyone involved(organizers, pilots and airport owners) would be named in the lawsuit. This can happen to any of us at any event. I would want to see that I am covered if something happens. They have some good experienced people organizing the event and will be putting safety first. Accidents can happen thats why we have insurance. If something does happen I would not be counting on MAAC insurance coverage to help me.

The CAC can be used as qualifiers for private events such as Top Gun. They may not be able to be qualifiers for international events that they are not part of.

The CAC is an interesting idea. Having a large event every year is a good idea. There does not seem to be enough support(in organizing) and interest for MAAC to finace such an event(the reporting mess of 2005 didn't help gain support). The big problem the CAC has is the image in many members eyes with the way it was started. There are some very dedicated members who will do a great job. They seem to be staying out the PR nightmare thats happening. I wish them luck and hope that maybe with a new SW zone director we can get some answers and go back to flying this summer.


That may be true about the insurance, but then there would be no reason to be a MAAC member. It clearly states on the CAC website that you must be a "MAAC or AMA" member to participate. This would only apply if CAC is planning on being insured through MAAC on the "TRESPASS" clause.
The whole idea of how CAC came to is very confusing, and has tarnished and branded the S/W zone in very poor light............
Being from the S/W, I didn't appreciate being painted with the same brush....[:@]
Old 02-28-2006, 06:32 PM
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adaptabl
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


ORIGINAL: Mentor34



The CAC can run any event they want with their own insurance coverage. MAAC or AMA coverage is not going to cover you at their event so they have their own coverage. It's every fliers duty to be sure the event has good first party coverage to protect them as a flier. If something was to happen I would bet anyone involved(organizers, pilots and airport owners) would be named in the lawsuit. This can happen to any of us at any event. I would want to see that I am covered if something happens. They have some good experienced people organizing the event and will be putting safety first. Accidents can happen thats why we have insurance. If something does happen I would not be counting on MAAC insurance coverage to help me.

The CAC can be used as qualifiers for private events such as Top Gun. They may not be able to be qualifiers for international events that they are not part of.

The CAC is an interesting idea. Having a large event every year is a good idea. There does not seem to be enough support(in organizing) and interest for MAAC to finace such an event(the reporting mess of 2005 didn't help gain support). The big problem the CAC has is the image in many members eyes with the way it was started. There are some very dedicated members who will do a great job. They seem to be staying out the PR nightmare thats happening. I wish them luck and hope that maybe with a new SW zone director we can get some answers and go back to flying this summer.


That may be true about the insurance, but then there would be no reason to be a MAAC member. It clearly states on the CAC website that you must be a "MAAC or AMA" member to participate. This would only apply if CAC is planning on being insured through MAAC on the "TRESPASS" clause.
The whole idea of how CAC came to is very confusing, and has tarnished and branded the S/W zone in very poor light............
Being from the S/W, I didn't appreciate being painted with the same brush....[:@]

Yes they seem to want it both ways. Use MAAC and the AMA for insurance but set their own rules. I would not want to be named in a lawsuit hoping that MAAC would cover me. The AMA insurance is second party and only covers members as a last resort after every other avenue has been used. I wonder if the airport owners know this? After the AGM I expect things to change and I hope MAAC makes a formal announcement about insurance coverage so everyone understands any risks. I have talked to my lawyer and he advised me to get a letter from MAAC showing coverage if I expect to be covered from the MAAC policy. If there was any problem he would love to have the case(yes he's a blood sucker).

Yes this CAC "Club", missing NATS money and missing final report looks bad(not to mention a ZD that doesn't answer questions and post on the forums under multiple users talking to himself). I hope the rest of Canada understands that the actions of a few do not represent all of us.

WOW.....we must look bad to the rest of Canada.

P.S. I did email our zone director and never received a reply. Our assistant zone director asked me to call him and I did. He did answer questions as far as he was aware and thats all I expect from our reps.
Old 02-28-2006, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

ORIGINAL: adaptabl


ORIGINAL: Mentor34

Yes they seem to want it both ways. Use MAAC and the AMA for insurance but set their own rules. I would not want to be named in a lawsuit hoping that MAAC would cover me. The AMA insurance is second party and only covers members as a last resort after every other avenue has been used. I wonder if the airport owners know this? After the AGM I expect things to change and I hope MAAC makes a formal announcement about insurance coverage so everyone understands any risks. I have talked to my lawyer and he advised me to get a letter from MAAC showing coverage if I expect to be covered from the MAAC policy. If there was any problem he would love to have the case(yes he's a blood sucker).

Yes this CAC "Club", missing NATS money and missing final report looks bad(not to mention a ZD that doesn't answer questions and post on the forums under multiple users talking to himself). I hope the rest of Canada understands that the actions of a few do not represent all of us.

WOW.....we must look bad to the rest of Canada.
The rest of Canada doesn't care. Even the rest of MAAC (again only those that care) see's it for what it is, a few fighting the executive. If there is any issue it's that your zone has not taken it upon themselves to fix the situation. WRT insurance you can get the summary off the website (I know it says it expires in 2005 ... my understanding is that our current policy has the same coverage) or a copy of the full policy by request from head office.

JH

Old 02-28-2006, 07:21 PM
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Mentor34
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


[quote]ORIGINAL: jhelps


ORIGINAL: adaptabl


ORIGINAL: Mentor34

Yes they seem to want it both ways. Use MAAC and the AMA for insurance but set their own rules. I would not want to be named in a lawsuit hoping that MAAC would cover me. The AMA insurance is second party and only covers members as a last resort after every other avenue has been used. I wonder if the airport owners know this? After the AGM I expect things to change and I hope MAAC makes a formal announcement about insurance coverage so everyone understands any risks. I have talked to my lawyer and he advised me to get a letter from MAAC showing coverage if I expect to be covered from the MAAC policy. If there was any problem he would love to have the case(yes he's a blood sucker).

Yes this CAC "Club", missing NATS money and missing final report looks bad(not to mention a ZD that doesn't answer questions and post on the forums under multiple users talking to himself). I hope the rest of Canada understands that the actions of a few do not represent all of us.

WOW.....we must look bad to the rest of Canada.
The rest of Canada doesn't care. Even the rest of MAAC (again only those that care) see's it for what it is, a few fighting the executive. If there is any issue it's that your zone has not taken it upon themselves to fix the situation. WRT insurance you can get the summary off the website (I know it says it expires in 2005 ... my understanding is that our current policy has the same coverage) or a copy of the full policy by request from head office.

JH


I gotta disagree with ya Jeff. Our zone is taking it upon themselves to correct it, but our link to the executive is part of the problem creating this decention. Our zone director as I see it, will not communicate our issues to the executive because he appears to be a major part of CAC's survival and existance. There are several members of the zone trying to get CAC to follow the same rules that any other MAAC affiliated club has to follow. Nobody can seem to understand why they think they are exempt from following those rules...... I guess the AGM is the last avenue left to correct the problem....
Old 02-28-2006, 11:15 PM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

ORIGINAL: Mentor34


ORIGINAL: jhelps


ORIGINAL: adaptabl


ORIGINAL: Mentor34

Yes they seem to want it both ways. Use MAAC and the AMA for insurance but set their own rules. I would not want to be named in a lawsuit hoping that MAAC would cover me. The AMA insurance is second party and only covers members as a last resort after every other avenue has been used. I wonder if the airport owners know this? After the AGM I expect things to change and I hope MAAC makes a formal announcement about insurance coverage so everyone understands any risks. I have talked to my lawyer and he advised me to get a letter from MAAC showing coverage if I expect to be covered from the MAAC policy. If there was any problem he would love to have the case(yes he's a blood sucker).

Yes this CAC "Club", missing NATS money and missing final report looks bad(not to mention a ZD that doesn't answer questions and post on the forums under multiple users talking to himself). I hope the rest of Canada understands that the actions of a few do not represent all of us.

WOW.....we must look bad to the rest of Canada.
The rest of Canada doesn't care. Even the rest of MAAC (again only those that care) see's it for what it is, a few fighting the executive. If there is any issue it's that your zone has not taken it upon themselves to fix the situation. WRT insurance you can get the summary off the website (I know it says it expires in 2005 ... my understanding is that our current policy has the same coverage) or a copy of the full policy by request from head office.

JH


I gotta disagree with ya Jeff. Our zone is taking it upon themselves to correct it, but our link to the executive is part of the problem creating this decention. Our zone director as I see it, will not communicate our issues to the executive because he appears to be a major part of CAC's survival and existance. There are several members of the zone trying to get CAC to follow the same rules that any other MAAC affiliated club has to follow. Nobody can seem to understand why they think they are exempt from following those rules...... I guess the AGM is the last avenue left to correct the problem....
[/quote] [/quote] [/quote]
I too disagree. Actually you have always been able as a zone to correct the "problem" (if indeed there is one). The bylaws state

"Removal from Office
(a) Any officer elected or appointed by the Board may be removed at any time by
the affirmative vote of the majority of members of the board.
(b) An interest category chairman may be removed at any time by a majority vote of
the members of his interest category.
(c) The office of Zone Director shall be automatically vacated if:
(i) a long illness (over 3 months) precludes him or her from engaging in
Association activities.
(ii) he or she fails to uphold the duties of zone director.
(iii) his or her removal from office shall be as a result of a special meeting
attended by 10% of the membership of the applicable zone in which a
resolution is passed by a two-thirds majority of the members present, or in
the case of a mail ballot, two-thirds of the ballots returned from at least 25%
of the membership, favor the removal from office of the zone director
concerned.
"

To fix the problem your zone has only had to call a special meeting attended by 10% of the zone members of which 2/3rds of those present need to pass a motion to remove the ZD. As an alternative a zone member could have arranged a mail-in ballot of 25% of the zone to achieve the same result (the members list of the zone is freely available from MAAC to a paid-up member). Failing to do so has sent a number of messages 1) not enough people care to take any action or 2) the majority of the zone members support the ZD (in which case he should be allowed to finish his term with the full support of the zone) or 3) people are unaware of this provision of the bylaws.

In any event hoping that it will be resolved at the AGM is (in my own small opinion) is abdicating the zones responsibility to the BOD.

What ever happens (support your ZD or remove him) I hope it is to the satisfaction of the majority of your zone's members.

JH
Old 03-01-2006, 12:40 AM
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DSLarkin
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

Well there's insurance and there's insurance: as I understand it you can fly at someone's cottage at the lake if you have his permission and you will be insured. However at a registered club site, insurance is also provided for the property owner. Beyond that, at a sanctioned event, insurance is provided for the event officials. So I believe that the CAC would need insurance to cover the site owner and the event officials. I don't see why the flyers wouldn't be covered by MAAC or AMA.

PS See clarification in my next post.
Old 03-01-2006, 01:24 AM
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Jason Holdaway
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

I believe that AMA members are actually covered by MAAC insurance when flying in Canada, not by their own AMA insurance
Old 03-01-2006, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

Morning All

As a side note my club leases the flying site from the owners of the 25.7 acres site.

http://ca.geocities.com/rrcf01/

I am one of the major owners. The owners require that all flyers be members of MAAC. The owners carry their own insurance as well. This insurance is expensive but the owners consider that it necessary.

I spend a considerable amount of time to maintain good relations with our neighbours.

cheers
don dow.
Old 03-01-2006, 08:08 AM
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Mentor34
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


ORIGINAL: Donovan Dow

Morning All

As a side note my club leases the flying site from the owners of the 25.7 acres site.

http://ca.geocities.com/rrcf01/

I am one of the major owners. The owners require that all flyers be members of MAAC. The owners carry their own insurance as well. This insurance is expensive but the owners consider that it necessary.

I spend a considerable amount of time to maintain good relations with our neighbours.

cheers
don dow.

Yes AS A CLUB.....CAC wasn't given Club STATUS through MAAC. CAC ( I THINK) is trying to use the "TRESPASS" bylaw to get the MAAC insurance even though they are not an AFFILIATED MAAC club. And the "TRESPASS" clause I believe only applies to a group of people ( LESS THAN FIVE) to fly with permission from the landowner and be covered with insurance through MAAC.
Old 03-01-2006, 09:04 AM
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DSLarkin
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

My information is out of date and I really can't contribute accurately on this. Let's wait untill we hear officially from the Board or the Insurance Chairman
Old 03-01-2006, 09:39 AM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

ORIGINAL: DSLarkin


Dave

Not certain if you are currently in a committee or zone position that carries some official capacity to release info of this nature, if so my apologies, however this is one of the reasons that there is mistrust with MAAC, people releasing information which more properly should come from the executive. If what you are saying is true, then I would think it would be up to the executive of MAAC to send a message to ALL members who were/are intending to attend the CAC that they DO NOT have MAAC insurance coverage. Further I am surprised that the insurance chairman would release the info to you to release to the world. Again we have a BOD for this type of thing!

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I think an official announcement from the exec on insurance coverage for the CAC should be forth-coming quickly, prior to others registering.

Very disappointing.

JH

PS after an e-mail from Dave I am convinced he had the best of intentions in mind. Consequently I have edited this post to remove the original quote.

As a further note there is NOW the following post at the MAAC site.


Date last modified : March 1, 2006
Created by : Carl Layden -- 44045
Subject : Notice to MAAC Members
News: Our legal council has advised us that we must notify you of a notice we received from our insurance broker.

MAAC (or AMA) members participating in the event(s) organized by Canadian Aeromodellers Club (CAC) will NOT be covered by the MAAC’s liability policy provided by Lloyd’s. The MAAC BOD in November defeated the motion to accept CAC as a chartered club of MAAC. The intent of the policy provided to MAAC is to provide liability coverage to the members of MAAC when engaged in modeling activities encouraged and endorsed by the association from grass roots activities in farmer’s fields to sanctioned world championship events. Since CAC was not accepted into MAAC the events organized by this group are not supported by the association and therefore are not subject to the benefits of the MAAC liability policy.

Respectfully,
Carl Layden
President
Model Aeronautics Association of Canada

Old 03-01-2006, 09:59 AM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


ORIGINAL: jhelps


ORIGINAL: DSLarkin

I need to correct my last post. I have just heard from MAAC's insurance chairman. As MAAC has specifically excluded CAC, the agent says that MAAC insurance coverage will not be available for flyers at the CAC event. This is an entirely new situation that we haven't had before.

Presmably this means that CAC will need to investigate obtaining insurance that the flyers can buy for the duration of the event.

Dave

Not certain if you are currently in a committee or zone position that carries some official capacity to release info of this nature, if so my apologies, however this is one of the reasons that there is mistrust with MAAC, people releasing information which more properly should come from the executive. If what you are saying is true, then I would think it would be up to the executive of MAAC to send a message to ALL members who were/are intending to attend the CAC that they DO NOT have MAAC insurance coverage. Further I am surprised that the insurance chairman would release the info to you to release to the world. Again we have a BOD for this type of thing!

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I think an official announcement from the exec on insurance coverage for the CAC should be forth-coming quickly, prior to others registering.

Very disappointing.

JH
Dave did not let the cat out of the bag, there is a post on the MAAC web site dealing with issue from the president.
Old 03-01-2006, 10:03 AM
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jhelps
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

ORIGINAL: sivlE


ORIGINAL: jhelps


ORIGINAL: DSLarkin

Dave

Not certain if you are currently in a committee or zone position that carries some official capacity to release info of this nature, if so my apologies, however this is one of the reasons that there is mistrust with MAAC, people releasing information which more properly should come from the executive. If what you are saying is true, then I would think it would be up to the executive of MAAC to send a message to ALL members who were/are intending to attend the CAC that they DO NOT have MAAC insurance coverage. Further I am surprised that the insurance chairman would release the info to you to release to the world. Again we have a BOD for this type of thing!

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I think an official announcement from the exec on insurance coverage for the CAC should be forth-coming quickly, prior to others registering.

Very disappointing.

JH
Dave did not let the cat out of the bag, there is a post on the MAAC web site dealing with issue from the president.
edited: see previous e-mail.

JH
Old 03-01-2006, 10:33 AM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

The fault was entirely mine.

I was talking to Dave on another matter and mentioned that the post from the president, with regard to insurance, was going onto the MAAC website shortly. Dave interpreted my comment as meaning that he should correct his earlier post. This was not what I wanted, but I can understand why Dave inferred what he did.

The gap in time between my comment to Dave and the placement of the official notice was a matter of minutes, but regardless, it happened. I take full responsibility for the faux pas. Premature release of information, which was privy only to the Board, prior to an official statement from the President, was wrong. This was not "transparency", this was an error on my part.

I apologise to the President, to the Board and to the general membership.

Richard Barlow
Old 03-01-2006, 10:49 AM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

It's good that all flyers know they are not covered my MAAC insurance at the CAC event. I think it will be a good event for those flying. Just be sure that the insurance provided by CAC covers you properly or be sure you have your own coverage. The CAC should consider allowing non MAAC members to fly since MAAC membership does nothing for insurance.


Thank you Mentor34 for bringing this up so that it could be addressed and members informed. Thank you to the admin of these forums for allowing this topic to remain open for us.
Old 03-01-2006, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance

Wow. Guess that settles that question. Where can we get a copy of the private policy that CAC has aquired for the event?

PS: On behalf of everyone in the World, I accept Richard's apology.
Old 03-01-2006, 01:18 PM
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ORIGINAL: gingertoad

The fault was entirely mine.

I was talking to Dave on another matter and mentioned that the post from the president, with regard to insurance, was going onto the MAAC website shortly. Dave interpreted my comment as meaning that he should correct his earlier post. This was not what I wanted, but I can understand why Dave inferred what he did.

The gap in time between my comment to Dave and the placement of the official notice was a matter of minutes, but regardless, it happened. I take full responsibility for the faux pas. Premature release of information, which was privy only to the Board, prior to an official statement from the President, was wrong. This was not "transparency", this was an error on my part.

I apologise to the President, to the Board and to the general membership.

Richard Barlow
Although a very minute mistake and hardly even worth the bother to comment on, but I must commend Mr. Barlow for the manly way in which he addressed this matter. There was no scandal, no legal threats, no finger pointing, no passing the buck, no trying to obscure or defend his position, no hiden agendas, there WAS honesty and an humbe apology. It just too bad others don't work the same way. Thanks Mr. Barlow for the recap of what transpired but I don't think is was any big deal.
Old 03-01-2006, 01:29 PM
  #24  
300sflyer
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

Wow. Guess that settles that question. Where can we get a copy of the private policy that CAC has aquired for the event?
From the CAC website, http://www.canadianaero.org/

"Insurance provide by Premier Marine"

After a quick search, I came up with this.

http://www.premiermarine.com/_downlo...UST%202005.pdf

Why not give send them an email, or give them a call? The contact info is at the bottom of the page.



Old 03-01-2006, 01:44 PM
  #25  
Sharpy01
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Default RE: Club requirement for insurance


ORIGINAL: 300sflyer



Why not give send them an email, or give them a call? The contact info is at the bottom of the page.


Done.

Will report back with whatever I receive.

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