SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Anyone receive their latest MAAC Mag?

Reading the comments of SW Director Shaw, it's easy to see why the latest insurance kurfluffle started when he posted incorrectly that no general sport flying or temp. US flyers had insurance earlier this year.

It's apparent that he didn't get his way on constitutional changes, suggesting the association is breaking some kind of law.

He apparently didn't get his way on budget issues, complaining about rate increases and the reasons for them. I must point out the obvious, in that you would be hard pressed to find anyone on the board or executive who has served more time on the board and executive at different times. So does, the likely longest serving board member take any responsibility for the current state. I don't get it?

When I was serving on the board, there were those who simply could not accept democratic majority rule on anything that went against their opinion? In my experience, this was the cause of much of the "infighting" that has existed prior to, during my time and obviously now continues.

It's too bad because nothing will ever change if a few core members are never willing to accept any change.

It's good to see current Prez, Carl Layden, continuing to keep important issues like frequencies, insurance issues, a business plan front and centre. Hopefully he can stickhandle the personalities to accomplish some good work.

Good luck Carl.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Agree

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

I see he also forgot to mentioned which zone rep walked out of the agm meeting just before it was to start and considering that the membership paid for this guys expenses to get there there was no explanation.

The problems with maac seem to start with a few guys that do the majority of the postings on the rccan
An example is how they ripped up this newbie [link]http://www.rccanada.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15553[/link]

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

One of the reasons why I will never post there.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

That was an interesting move. Does anyone know what that was all about? If I were one of the 1400 or so votes that suddenly didn't count, I'd be pretty unhappy.

JH

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Yes, a person (who happens to have some emotional attachment to a recent safety issue) pounced on a newbie for various safety infractions. Further, if you read the entire thread, that person was admonished for said "pouncing" and an explanation resulted.

Judging an entire group for the behaviour of one (or a handful) is a bit premature. It would be like me judgin Manitoba for the behaviour of certain ex Manitoba ZDs. If you'd like examples of a site that does exhibit this antagonistic behaviour, specifically toward anyone (or anything) pro-MAAC, you need look no further than your own zone's discussion forums....:eek:

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

If you had bothered to to read my whole post, (which was quite small I might add), I said that it was ONE of the reasons I do not post there.

One of the other reasons is that there seems to be no discussion on any MAAC issues. I don't give a rat's behind whether you are pro or conn on anything that is MAAC related. I just would like to see some good discussion on things that are about MAAC.

If nobody questions "why", then how are we able to keep those in charge in check. You have to remember that it is OUR MAAC, not a select few who are on the executive.

It also seems that when someone starts to question the executive, they are jump or pounced upon by others on RCC. And then the thread is shut down before anything can be fully discussed. Hopefully this can happen here.

The Mods at RCU seem to do a wonderful job of allowing free discussion while quietly keeping the forum in check from the backgroung. Just take a look at the AMA forum. They seem to have great discussions with a little name calling but nobody goes home mad. But they are alsoable to discuss anything and everything about the AMA. There are no sacred cows there. I can't say that about RCC.

That is the main reason I will not post there.

Here if I want to say MAAC sucks or if I want to say that MAAC is the greatest organization in the world, I can say it. I can't even discuss it over at RCC. There is no forum for it. If they were to make one then you might see me there.

Instead, I will post here, without any fear that my voice will be shut down. I will be able to read posts from all sides of the discussion and I might be a big enough boy to be able to filter out all the crap and learn about the meat of the subject and form an opinion.


Again some assumptions that have been made here. Just because I am from MB, don't assume that I would call that my own zone's discussion forum. I don't post there either but at least I can see what other opinions there are out there in regards to MAAC. I have gained information about MAAC and the inner workings of MAAC because my former ZD had the stones to say what he felt was going on in MAAC. It was a way MY zone was able to get information about MAAC and was able to discuss it. I don't see too many other ZD's allowing themselves to get involved in such an open discussion.

I also seem to recall seeing quite a few posts, on RCC, from certain individuals that were calling for a "certain ex Manitoba ZD" to be banned and be pounced upon, coming on MY zone site, stirring up the same kind of trouble. Seems to me that those in glass houses.......

Learn to question. It is the only thing that separates leaders from followers. And from what I see there are already enough followers.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

"Pouncing on criticism" or jumping to the defense?...

The simple fact is that these people are volunteers, and deserve a LOT of RESPECT for the work they do.....

My one point is, that if you have issues with one of these fine gentlemen (aka VOLUNTEERS), why not take it directly to them instead of making public accusations. Got a question? They do publish public contact information ....:eek:

Expecting the inquisition has become a way of life for these people ... THAT'S JUST WRONG, and that's what I'm here to defend.[>:]

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Jim, I agree with you a 100%, and I hate to bring up historical information but I will do it on this one time for the benefit of newer maak members on this forum. The tone in MAAK started to change with the character assaults on volunteers like Rick Reid, Wayne Bransfeld, and that Sharpe fella to a degree, so some individuals instead of working within the maac zone meeting process took matters into their own hands and unsurped the maak governing process. in fact a motion was made at the 1996 or 95 AGM to ban Rick Reid for life from MAAK, and the larkin campaign on the aeroclub issue, started the process of the attacks on individual zone reps, misinformation on that subject, so I think those incidents set the tone in MAAK that is with us today.

Also people just get bone headed, for instance at the 2001 MB zone meeting, some MB zone members strongly opposed allowing members from NW Ont. (TB west) to become official members of MB zone, even thought they had unofficially been members of MB zone (on their maac membership card) for the past 20 or 30 years, try to figure that one out.

Perhaps MAAK is trying too hard, trying to be everything for all modellers and instead of performing well in a few areas, ends up doing poorly in many areas.


Perhaps the first step is to admit there are problems in MAAC, get those solved and move forward. Many volunteer organizations have these problems and have worked them out. There been some good progress in the past few years, however the process that the rc can is using on MAAC issues seems to be eroding any progress that has been made.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

OMG, did you really write that Ken? That was .... coherent. [sm=confused.gif]:D

Whatever your take on it, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the full story but, withdrawing MAAC from the Aeroclub was a very underhanded thing to do that could have had some very strong negative repercussions to competitors. This was not a bright move.

Further, I understand there were some mutually beneficial co-operative arrangements that were lost as a result of this move.....

MAAC trying too hard? Huh? MAAC is trying to live up to it's constitution, and doing a fair job of it from my point of view. No, we do not share the same point of view but, this is not surprising. The MAAC you've envisioned in previous discussions would certainly not serve my needs... in fact, it would be so hamstrung, I doubt it could serve the needs of any but a few rural communities.....

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Speaking of sweeping judgements -----

There are numerous statements on that "Evil Manitoba Forum" supporting the need for a healthy and accountable MAAC. Many of the questions, comments and criticisms are made with the end-view of improving MAAC & making it relevant and accountable to the members at large, rather than to itself. Despite this, they are accused of promulgating "that same old crap" and are commonly accused of personal attacks.

Whereas, despite the mantle of purity & legitimacy, many of the inhabitants of the "other" forum frequently demonstrate less open-minded thinking, and are not at all shy at making personal attacks their stock-in-trade, despite routinely accusing the MB members of that particular activity. Additionally, the "other" forum, as a communication tool, appears to be chancy to use if you don't belong to its inner core and you voice contrary opinions.

The reality is that there are both forward thinking and reactionary types in both forums and the entrenched "us & them" poison isn't productive. At least this RCU forum offers a fresh start for open discussion of MAAC, its virtues, values, warts & failings.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

:eek:

New forum, same old positions.

Maybe if we really were ready to set aside the "us vs them discussions" we could come to some agreement. Unfortunately both sides seem well entrenched and quick to pounce.

Give up your "2 sides" mentality, you may hear some legitimate points being made, I have heard some on both sides.

I suggest that what you appear to view as a "slanted opinion" on RCCanada is simply a conscious decisions to keep the site focused on modelling discussions. Players on both sides have been shut down. I recently wen to "the other site" only to find the same old bodies revelling in the fact that they were able to have another discussion shut down.... this is your perception of healthy progressive discussion?:eek:

Enough is enough ... Enough finger pointing (notice the title of this thread :eek:) and armchair quarterbacking.
Where are the positive contributions?
What is your vision of MAAC?
What should it be doing that it isn't?
What should it stop doing? Why?

Frequencies, Fields and Insurance are nice goals.

Frequencies are covered.
Insurance, covered.
Fields? What can MAAC do to fight urban sprawl? I suggest they can do nothing, this is refelected by the other, more organized and better funded organizations that have fought/are fighting that battle and losing.....

Next?
I have my list, the same ones I'm butting heads with you guys on.... promotion of the hobby including the support of competition and providing a focus for communication in this widely dispersed country.....

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Good questions. Lets hear it folks

-I will take some time to firm-up my views on MAAC & what might be done.

- In my own view, frequencies are ever in need of guarding -- the job never ends

- Insurance is in a similar boat -- they will stick it to us at every chance & the search for decent coverage at a bearable price is never ending

- Fields --- who knows -- we have not yet ventured there. The Brits take positive action in this regard & there are some results, plus a lot of bickering about who gets helped. That is probably better that doing nothing.

Why are we butting heads on your last item?

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Holy Crap............a great discussion breaking out here. :D

Without getting into the whole Aeroclub withdrawl.......yeah, you don't know the whole story. Ken was actually ZD for MB when that all went down. (before you suggest that this was somehow his fault) He was a rookie AD and a competitor at that time. I have talked in detail to a number of people who were there and it was very ugly. Aeroclub was the "bad-guy" in all this, but Reid took the cannon fire. The Aeroclub was in bad financial shape, for a time squatting in MAAC's building for free and after helping them keep afloat, they turned around and tried to send fees through the roof without justification. Reid's move had majority approval of the board. Despite what a few may tell you, the formula of the deal that still exists in part today with Aeroclub was the direct result of Reid's powerplay. Without MAAC, Aeroclub doesn't exist and they certainly realized it at that point and they were forced to negotiate. Larkin may have won some kind of award, but Reid set the table for him. ...... IMO

As far as RCC............hehe........man, I still get slammed every time a MAAK issue comes up ................... and I haven't been allowed in there for quite sometime. I do notice that quite a few shots and "questionable" posts go on for quite some time before they are deep-sixed. The prodding I've done about shutting down threads, is more of a statement of fact. Regardless of the content of my posts, they were generally killed as soon as I participated. (when i was allowed to.. hehe)

Anyway, Ken may have the key.

I believe MAAC tries to do too much. It should should stay very focused on the national stuff. A topic for a separate thread perhaps?

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

I think I am still coherent - here are my two

We're in the Aero Club, that's ok, but let's belong there for a reason not for the excuse our constitution says so, I think we are smarter than that, Aero Club does dick for average joe modeler but we can live the ACC as along as their fee to MAAK does not go up.

After that - flying models, you're on your own ticket, which includes when you're going to podunk, poland, or peterbourough that includes airfare, meals, entry fees, toilet paper, booze, etc, the handouts stop no matter what the reason. We don't need to be sending a ff team to the Salt mines for four times, if they wish to go fine. I travel to Texas, I give Canada a good plug I get dick from MAAC, why?

Events - fly ins, rallies, nats, etc, etc, you are on your own ticket here, if you can't convince all the clubs in the zone to go in and host the a big event, put up the cash and keep the profits, then not do it.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

I think in the near future the technology will overrun the need for specific frequency monitoring as is done today. Whether its a spread spectrum 2.4 GHz or higher system or the gear becomes so good at signal rejection....either way I can see in a short while we wont concern ourselves with being shot down.

Yes insurance will always be a tough one....possibly MAAC may go to a second payer system as is done in the AMA to reduce premium costs.....

With the country as diverse as it is I can never see MAAC being effective at providing financial support for flying fields. The management of such a program would be a daunting task even for a paid employee. If you want to start sinking a ton of money somewhere this would probably be a good place :-) $100K doesnt go very far for land in metropolitan areas :-)

I would like to see this....not sure how one would approach it though.

I will assume you mean the Nats? I like the idea of category Nats, we have done this in pattern for a number of years while there was no combined Nats and it worked very well.....no seed money needed no arguing about where the profits go (back to the host club in these cases)....its simple and effective. It can also be location tailored to the areas with the most interest and is easily swapped one end of the country to the next on opposing years. I am "hardcore" competitor, I go to the Nats to win National titles and seeing other events to me is largely irrelevant...for the majority of people who attended our category Nats this was also the feeling I got. For those who fly in more than one event...what can I say there is no "perfect" solution :-)

There are drawbacks to category events, the obvious being the social and peripheral stuff that is associated with a full combined Nats (those who have attended one will get what I talking about).....also combined Nats hold much more status among the modelling community while category Nats are often perceived as a local event.

We only have to look south to see how to run a National Championships....I have been to the US Nats (well it will be 4 times this summer) and it is truly the largest Nationals in the world by a long shot. People come from around the globe to compete at the US Nats. You need to book hotels months in advance to get decent rooms, you cant move around Muncie without seeing a fellow flier somewhere, its really unreal. I think they have somewhere around 1500 entrants at the outdoor events and I dont know how many at the indoor events....takes well over a month to complete it. Pattern itself draws usually around 130-140 pilots.

I think to run a sucessful combined Nationals it really needs to be in the same location year after year with the same organizing group with the same budget etc etc etc.....this will at least guarantee continuity. Its been proven time and again that moving it around the country doesnt work. Obviously we cant get on the same scale as the US, but if we can get 1/10 of the way there (Vancouver proved the Nats can be succesful) then people will attend.....and having it fixed makes attendance that much simpler, especially for those who would have to travel. Nothing against the current organizers but they were way to late publishing dates for people in the west with busy summers to plan for the Nats....the set dates need to be out in October at least.

For those who question travel costs....well flights across Canada are relatively cheap...and Air Canada will take something as big as my pattern model (6.5' span, 6.5' long) on board for $25 each way :-) TX's go as carry-on :-) Anyways, this is getting off track.

Do we need a Nats in Canada? I dont know....I think the US should just refer to their Nats as the North American National Championships (much like Europe has the European championships) and call it done....we all go to Muncie every year and have a blast landing our foamies in the hotel's pools, and on the front desk in the lobby LOL. If we want to run a Canadian Nats as a side line item fine....

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Good stuff gentlemen.

The new radio systems Chad talks about certainly look promising. It would be nice not to have to worry about being "shot down". Might also assist more than "rules" in the insurance department?

The Aussie's also have a system to help club's purchase properties and it was being explored for a time, but I have to conceed that the money required to get a program up and running and the country's diverse geography are prohibitive.

Adopting the US Nats as a North American Championship? Interesting, but I suspect some of the oldtimers within the Canadian Comp. world may have you drawn and quartered for simply suggesting it? Perhaps a combined North American approach to FAI fee structure would be something worth pursuing.

Quite frankly, I think it's a scam that we have to go through the Aero Club to pay dues to the FAI and we should aggressively be pursuing a direct link or look into working with the US on the issue.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Not sure who you are referring to....but in pattern I would be considered one of the "oldtimers" so I wont be doing that to myself! Anyone who likes to compete will go to Muncie eventually, the whole F3A team will be there this year, I know lots of pylon guys from all across the country go....I have seen CL line guys going RC Combat guys, sailplane guys.....this is the way it is....we dont have a Nats people will go elsewhere and I dont think you will get a better ran event than Muncie. Its within a days drive for the majority of the membership! Even from Calgary I can pound it out in two days drive (although I am well beyond posted speed limits to make it LOL). This year I had a choice between Muncie or the Cnd Nats....easy choice for me :-)

For the FAI, the way I understand it is each country must be represented through their local aeroclub....under the current structure I dont think the FAI would allow a joining of Canada and the US. It would need to be separate, which is fine. I beleive the AMA is the aeroclub in the US, why MAAC is not the Aeroclub in Canada I have no idea....but it would be better for us to be the Aeroclub and collect dues from other organizations than to pay dues to the Aeroclub itself. I cannot beleive that managing those tasks is not within the office capacity....all of the organizational structure probably occured before I was born.....so I am not responsible (although I am sure Ken would like to think so! I only joined MAAC in 1990 and didnt get my first FAI licence until 2001!)

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

NAA in the US is their aeroclub [link]http://www.naa.aero/?CFID=145824&CFTOKEN=81217325[/link]

Aero Club for maak is a $16,000 membership fee and a chance for a few maac guys to be around in navy balazers and grey trousers, but if we need ACC for the FAI link so be it but we need to be weaning ACC off to a more reasonable fee.

When is the last time you seen an aeroclub report from anyone?

Perhaps our fee should be based on the number of FAI competitors we have to make if fair.
Currently the fee is basedon our 13,000 members, that makes our $16000 fee the highest of all the members in the Aeroclub of canada.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

The support doesn't necessarily have to be for the purchase of land. It could include $ for ancilliary hardware that clubs need & sometimes can't afford (lawn tractor for example?). It could also be legal/paralegal resources in disputes over things like loss of use due to noise complaints. There are probably lots of ways that field operations could be supported in "needy" cases, without actually buying land.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Ok, where do I sign up for a lawn tractor?
I'll store it at my house and perform post maintenance checkups on my own lawn. :D

... and maybe MAAC can set up a defense fund to fight off the GTAA proposal on behalf of Transport Canada (billions of $$$ involved) for the reliever airport proposed for our current field location? [>:]
BTW, that same land has been valued at 350 million dollars, perhaps when they've won the GTAA case, they can continue to fight any future development proposals.[&o]

Just illustrating a point. Armchair ideas are not worth the virtual paper they are written on.
Bring forward a well thought out prospectus and I'll be the first to champion it to the exec.

Meanwhile, let's let MAAC do what it's best positioned for; communications, representation and promotion.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

This is exactly the kind of personal attacks that earn you the OAF title in my book!!![:@]

You obviously don't know Jack.
I first encountered this gentleman when I was 16 and wrote him for advice on a glider I was building. He followed up with a multi-page letter including sheets of drawings for modifications including spoilers etc. Today Jack is co-owner of A&J hobbies in Markham and probably the most invloved person with young kids getting involved in all aspects including full scale aviation that I can point to.
He is always giving, willing to go miles out of his way to help (he hand delivered an item to me in Tillsonburg (5 hour roundtrip) during the World's when I was unable to get it any other way ... no charge, no expectations, first I've even spoke of this ... thanks again Jack!). I can list several similar activities I've witnessed, and several more I know of.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE THAT COMPARES?!!![sm=punching.gif]

LAY OFF THIS GOOD VOLUNTEER!!!![:@][:@][:@]

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Jim buddy, did my comments upset you, I'm sorry, I'm sure JH is a fine fellow, but perhaps you are intertwinning your personal relationship with JH verses his position with Maak and the FAI. Everyone in maak, connected with maak and so on are fine fellows, I'll fix my post.

And for what have I done - this winter I gave away a Seniorita kit to a newbie, but since I'm not on the MAAK free trip to Paris team I suppose that doesn't rate a bronze star.

Back to the point, if we looks Aero Club of Canada fee of $16,000 divided by the number of FAI competitors that competted in FAI events last year (say 36) we get $16,000 / 36 = $444.44 to per Maak competitor for ACC. ouch!

- cheers, OAF

ps: about those FAI & ACC reports - any oneever see one, lately?

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

Don't edit history, just edit yourself ... off the planet.[:@]

More LIES ... your credibility stinks.
Your personal attacks smack of a truly twisted individual with a huge chip on their shoulder.
Why should I trust any of your figures?
If you think you can negotiate a better deal, go for it. JUST LAY OFF THE PERSONAL ATTACKS!!![:@]

Reports ... whatever, you obviously don;t understand the prorities of the job. As Scale chairman, Jack contacted me several times on issues he thought I should be aware of. I know he has done this for the other disciplines as well. This is the REAL job. Reports are more of a nicety for FAI as all FAI reports are freely available on the FAI website. Only certain participating disciplines need this informationas it's typically focused to a discipline. The important thing is that the discipline impacted is kept abreast of these movements, and that Jack does. If you really need a MAAC-FAI report, I believe there is one in the MAAC office as we 'speak'.

RE: SW Zone Director's AGM comments?
 

I hope that you're not being condescending -- it sounds like it -- I particularly didn't like the "armchair ideas" thing.

With you guys sitting on $350M worth of land -- you're history, unfortunately. I think that you are looking at big issues that no-one can fix for a believable amount of money. I'm certain that MAAC can provide assistance, within its means, for field support -- it just hasn't been an issue yet, so no serious thought has gone into it.