Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
11-06-2011, 07:32 PM
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Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
I was a fan of Charles Schultz’s Peanut characters and loved the part of Snoopy and the Red Baron. When I discovered that the Red Baron was a real person, I have been fascinated by him every since.
For the next pilot figure in the Best Pilot line-up, I’ve chosen to do my boyhood hero’s brother, Lothar. I would really like to do Manfred some day, but I thought most people would think Manfred could only go in a Fokker Triplane. In reality, Richthofen flew several aircraft, but I thought Lothar would look more at home flying a Fokker D-7, of which there are a slew of fantastic flying 1/4 scale D-7s out there.
Now Lothar was no slouch! They said he was a “berzeker” in the air, and by shooting down 40 aircraft in only 70 days at the front, he must have been!
After gathering several photos of Lothar, I think the guy looked different in every photo! I guess the differences and clarity of photography at the time is to blame. Here are some of the source pics I have found. If anyone has anymore, I would welcome them!
11-06-2011, 07:34 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
After finding reference pics, I scaled them to what a 1/4 scale Lothar would be. From what I could gather from online sources, it looked like Lothar was right at 5’ 11” fairly tall for the early 1900’s. That is 71” divided by 1/4 and we come up with a figure that is 17.75” tall. Pretty tall when I’m used to sculpting 1/5 scale pilots! Now after about 7 hours of sculpting, this is what I have so far. This larger size is nice! However, I’m not sure my technique for sculpting eyes is going to work for the larger scale. Hmmm.
11-06-2011, 08:33 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
You are a fantastic sculptor...and I've enjoyed watching your work on these forums. Amazing what you've got in just 7 hours. I hope you can take some constructive criticism from someone who could never begin to accomplish what you do...seems silly in fact to offer it. But here ya go anyway.
The likeness is good but to my eye, the jaw seems slightly short and a bit broader at the chin than in the photos and lacks the uniquely rounded apple (dudley dorightedness) of the photos. In the photos, the jaw is square at the hinge but slightly round underneath as it tapers to the chin I also think the chin juts out more closer to the plane of the tip of the nose...again like a "Dudley Do right" The dimple in the chin on the photos also seems to have a unique angle not captured yet in the clay. The net affect of these things makes him look fuller in the face in the clay from the front and less noble and romanesque from the profile.
You've done a great job with the mouth with the exception of the corners of his mouth which are also unique...there is none of the upturn (joker smile) you have but more of a sardonic slightly sad look caused by the deep crease that begins at the edge of the lip and angles downward, set at an angle that is not yet seen in the clay.
Lastly, the nose is very prominent in the photos but you've made it slightly larger and broader in the clay than it appears in the photos. In my humble opinion, the bridge should be a bit narrower beginning between the eyes and carried right to the tip. The bridge should not flatten to the cheek so gradually but rather cut more sharply back and then taper into the cheek....especially about mid way to the nostrils. You have the slight verticle cleft in the end of the nose which is good but there is also a bit of a horizontal valley where the bridge meets the brow, between the eyes, perhaps affected by the way the brow ridge extends thinly between the eyebrows. There is also a slight web of skin at the inner corner of his eye that if represented would help the likeness as it too is a unique feature. Also, the shadows on the forehead of the 3/4 profile photo you seem to be using most for reference indicates a less sloped forehead and some unique bone structure just over the nose and eyes.
Take another look...tell me what you think? Great subject.... and as usual...incredible workmanship. So much easier to be a talentless critic.
The likeness is good but to my eye, the jaw seems slightly short and a bit broader at the chin than in the photos and lacks the uniquely rounded apple (dudley dorightedness) of the photos. In the photos, the jaw is square at the hinge but slightly round underneath as it tapers to the chin I also think the chin juts out more closer to the plane of the tip of the nose...again like a "Dudley Do right" The dimple in the chin on the photos also seems to have a unique angle not captured yet in the clay. The net affect of these things makes him look fuller in the face in the clay from the front and less noble and romanesque from the profile.
You've done a great job with the mouth with the exception of the corners of his mouth which are also unique...there is none of the upturn (joker smile) you have but more of a sardonic slightly sad look caused by the deep crease that begins at the edge of the lip and angles downward, set at an angle that is not yet seen in the clay.
Lastly, the nose is very prominent in the photos but you've made it slightly larger and broader in the clay than it appears in the photos. In my humble opinion, the bridge should be a bit narrower beginning between the eyes and carried right to the tip. The bridge should not flatten to the cheek so gradually but rather cut more sharply back and then taper into the cheek....especially about mid way to the nostrils. You have the slight verticle cleft in the end of the nose which is good but there is also a bit of a horizontal valley where the bridge meets the brow, between the eyes, perhaps affected by the way the brow ridge extends thinly between the eyebrows. There is also a slight web of skin at the inner corner of his eye that if represented would help the likeness as it too is a unique feature. Also, the shadows on the forehead of the 3/4 profile photo you seem to be using most for reference indicates a less sloped forehead and some unique bone structure just over the nose and eyes.
Take another look...tell me what you think? Great subject.... and as usual...incredible workmanship. So much easier to be a talentless critic.
11-07-2011, 09:28 AM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
ORIGINAL: transatlanticflight
You are a fantastic sculptor...and I've enjoyed watching your work on these forums. Amazing what you've got in just 7 hours. I hope you can take some constructive criticism from someone who could never begin to accomplish what you do...seems silly in fact to offer it. But here ya go anyway.
The likeness is good but to my eye, the jaw seems slightly short and a bit broader at the chin than in the photos and lacks the uniquely rounded apple (dudley dorightedness) of the photos. In the photos, the jaw is square at the hinge but slightly round underneath as it tapers to the chin I also think the chin juts out more closer to the plane of the tip of the nose...again like a ''Dudley Do right'' The dimple in the chin on the photos also seems to have a unique angle not captured yet in the clay. The net affect of these things makes him look fuller in the face in the clay from the front and less noble and romanesque from the profile.
You've done a great job with the mouth with the exception of the corners of his mouth which are also unique...there is none of the upturn (joker smile) you have but more of a sardonic slightly sad look caused by the deep crease that begins at the edge of the lip and angles downward, set at an angle that is not yet seen in the clay.
Lastly, the nose is very prominent in the photos but you've made it slightly larger and broader in the clay than it appears in the photos. In my humble opinion, the bridge should be a bit narrower beginning between the eyes and carried right to the tip. The bridge should not flatten to the cheek so gradually but rather cut more sharply back and then taper into the cheek....especially about mid way to the nostrils. You have the slight verticle cleft in the end of the nose which is good but there is also a bit of a horizontal valley where the bridge meets the brow, between the eyes, perhaps affected by the way the brow ridge extends thinly between the eyebrows. There is also a slight web of skin at the inner corner of his eye that if represented would help the likeness as it too is a unique feature. Also, the shadows on the forehead of the 3/4 profile photo you seem to be using most for reference indicates a less sloped forehead and some unique bone structure just over the nose and eyes.
Take another look...tell me what you think? Great subject.... and as usual...incredible workmanship. So much easier to be a talentless critic.
You are a fantastic sculptor...and I've enjoyed watching your work on these forums. Amazing what you've got in just 7 hours. I hope you can take some constructive criticism from someone who could never begin to accomplish what you do...seems silly in fact to offer it. But here ya go anyway.
The likeness is good but to my eye, the jaw seems slightly short and a bit broader at the chin than in the photos and lacks the uniquely rounded apple (dudley dorightedness) of the photos. In the photos, the jaw is square at the hinge but slightly round underneath as it tapers to the chin I also think the chin juts out more closer to the plane of the tip of the nose...again like a ''Dudley Do right'' The dimple in the chin on the photos also seems to have a unique angle not captured yet in the clay. The net affect of these things makes him look fuller in the face in the clay from the front and less noble and romanesque from the profile.
You've done a great job with the mouth with the exception of the corners of his mouth which are also unique...there is none of the upturn (joker smile) you have but more of a sardonic slightly sad look caused by the deep crease that begins at the edge of the lip and angles downward, set at an angle that is not yet seen in the clay.
Lastly, the nose is very prominent in the photos but you've made it slightly larger and broader in the clay than it appears in the photos. In my humble opinion, the bridge should be a bit narrower beginning between the eyes and carried right to the tip. The bridge should not flatten to the cheek so gradually but rather cut more sharply back and then taper into the cheek....especially about mid way to the nostrils. You have the slight verticle cleft in the end of the nose which is good but there is also a bit of a horizontal valley where the bridge meets the brow, between the eyes, perhaps affected by the way the brow ridge extends thinly between the eyebrows. There is also a slight web of skin at the inner corner of his eye that if represented would help the likeness as it too is a unique feature. Also, the shadows on the forehead of the 3/4 profile photo you seem to be using most for reference indicates a less sloped forehead and some unique bone structure just over the nose and eyes.
Take another look...tell me what you think? Great subject.... and as usual...incredible workmanship. So much easier to be a talentless critic.
11-07-2011, 10:14 AM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Whistling Death, no worries with Transatlantic. He is providing CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, which in the art field one gets a lot of. Outside of the art field, it can appear mean-spirited but it totally is not, or in the case of Transatlantic it isn't. I really appreciate his insightful comments and they are taken in the spirit they were given, to improve the sculpture. Which it will!
Thanks Transatlantic for your insight and thanks to both of you for your interest in the thread!
Thanks Transatlantic for your insight and thanks to both of you for your interest in the thread!
11-07-2011, 10:53 AM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
I am a sculptor myself so I understand constructive criticism very well. I just though it a bit over the top for such a small piece that isn't even close to being done but that is JMHO. Art is such an interpretive field so it is par for the course.
I like the work you show here because I appreciate real talent and you have it.
I like the work you show here because I appreciate real talent and you have it.
11-07-2011, 04:22 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Its kind of amazing the hobby has focused in so specific as to be making accurate pilots of one specific person !
I do know there was a few of them in the past. I think I might even have a 1/4 Hazel Sig ? or did I buy that? its hard to say whats in some of those box's anymore.. hahahahha
Lets see, I need a Max Holtzem 1/4 .... and , and , and... hahahahah
Keep up the good work Fly4Real even if does make me grumble when I look at my own homemade pilots !!
I do know there was a few of them in the past. I think I might even have a 1/4 Hazel Sig ? or did I buy that? its hard to say whats in some of those box's anymore.. hahahahha
Lets see, I need a Max Holtzem 1/4 .... and , and , and... hahahahah
Keep up the good work Fly4Real even if does make me grumble when I look at my own homemade pilots !!
11-09-2011, 07:21 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Hey guys, thanks for the great feedback. I'm putting up this weekend's work...I sculpt the hair and ears just for reference. I know they will be covered up later with the flight helmet, but it gives me clues as to if the likeness is being accomplished. I get asked why make the pilots look like someone. For me, it is just fun. I think on another level, if the figure is a generic person, then it looks generic and fake. It is the same as making a scale aircraft but not a particular aircraft. How is that for tying the thought process into the hobby? It gives the project CHARACTER.
I think I like the new sculpted in eyes. The larger size requires more detail, so Lothar will have detailed eyes with irisis and pupils. I like sculpting in the details rather than having blank orbs. One it makes the unpainted pilots not look like zombies and Two, it is a big help when painting the pilots.
11-09-2011, 07:47 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Now lets throw a flight helmet and goggles on him and see how he is going to look in the cockpit. I thought there would be plenty of photos of WWI helmets and goggles. Not so many it seems. The big difference between WWI and WWII gear is the goggles look so “dainty”. And these were for open cockpits. Wow. I’ve got some good reference shots of actual German WWI aviation helmets that look similar to what Lothar is wearing in the shot with his brother in early spring of 1918. Goggle are just roughed in to get an idea of how they will sit on his head.
11-09-2011, 07:51 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
I really like putting these pics up online. Well, I don’t know if “like” is the correct word, because issues that I don’t see while sculpting, jump out at me in the photos. Let’s say it is a useful tool to the process. With that being said, I think the nose is too big, so over the last couple of evenings, Lothar has been in for a “pruning”, YIKES! Mostly the sides of the nostrils were reduced. I also “rediscovered” this reference photo and thought it was a really good direction for what I wanted to accomplish. I really liked the flight helmet a bit askew, the straight on the head, looked a little too perfect and staged. The fur sticking out is something you don’t see on pilot figures on the market today. Lastly, I decided to have Lothar looking off to the side. Yep, had to flatten the old eyes and redo. I think it adds a bit more “life” to him. They still need a bit of polish, but I think we are getting there. Note a hint of eyelashes under the lids. Not sure if that will stay there but we’ll see.
11-10-2011, 07:20 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Do these fellas look familiar? Thank you for the pilots for my Doolittle Raider B-25B. I really enjoyed painting these...your work is beyond description! Thank you for these pilots.
Tim Evans
Tim Evans
11-11-2011, 07:11 AM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Fly4Real excellent work still. I like what you are doing there and the eyes look great.
To me eyes and hands are the hardest to get right. I can draw them OK but bringing them out is a sculpture is a whole different world.
Nothing like good lighting and good photographs to bring out all those "inconsistencies" huh?
Sculpture is much like a scale warbird, you never finish you just stop working on it.
I am tickled that you post your work here because I really do enjoy it. Quite fascinating really.
To me eyes and hands are the hardest to get right. I can draw them OK but bringing them out is a sculpture is a whole different world.
Nothing like good lighting and good photographs to bring out all those "inconsistencies" huh?
Sculpture is much like a scale warbird, you never finish you just stop working on it.
I am tickled that you post your work here because I really do enjoy it. Quite fascinating really.
11-11-2011, 11:10 AM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Yes....really.
Really coming along...and thanks Fly4real for taking my comments in the spirit they were meant. I agree whole heartedly that modeling a real person faithfully is 1000% better than a generic contrived human. This last series of photos are really looking good. Mouth is spot on now and the bridge of the nose and the eye shape is perfect - glad you captured that indentation and the slight web. You have great talent. Looks like you trimmed some of the nostril that was a bit big in the set of photos just before these. The nose is looking much better...it's funny his face in the photos is rather long and narrow and it is only the relatively small size of his nose and the "baby fat" of the bottom of his cheeks that give him a fullish look at all. Still think the chin is a tad too square...in the full length photo with trench coat and flying cap the shadow under the mouth forms an upside down arc indicative of a bit of a smooth round protusion or nob...if his chin was an apple I would say more Macintosh and less Red Delicious. So funny trying to describe with words what is best shown in the form. Of course as has been said it is subjective...and my comments remain humbly submitted.
Although, I have dabbled in sculpture and other art forms...have neither the time nor desire to defend to the peanut gallery my already admitted "opinion" as just that...one man's opinion. You have my respect for both your artistry and your appreciation of the feedback offered from another man's eye. The goal of your art, as you have stated, is accuracy...and clearly you recognize, as most artists do that, after a while, the process breeds a familiarity with the subject that can often blind the artist. The hope is to achieve a high percentage before you lose interest...as all art is abandoned - never finished.
So now... at the risk of drawing more flak from the great unwashed...here's the big challenge...how do you take these obviously posed photos and interpret their static expression enough to generate facial expressions that would more appropriately convey the concentration and intensity of flying a combat aircraft? Since that is where these guys end up...at the controls.
Even as I post I'm thinking I would rather PM...I guess other than ooohs and ahhhhs...and the photos of your awesome progress...maybe I'm adding something to the thread for your customer to consider about how painstaking the process really is...every nuance, every detail, every decision...and the value of the end result...well beyond the price. I've seen Sailor Malan...incredible. Watching your transformative process rather than just seeing the end result is the best entertainment on RCU and the best advertisement you could ever produce. Bravo!
Really coming along...and thanks Fly4real for taking my comments in the spirit they were meant. I agree whole heartedly that modeling a real person faithfully is 1000% better than a generic contrived human. This last series of photos are really looking good. Mouth is spot on now and the bridge of the nose and the eye shape is perfect - glad you captured that indentation and the slight web. You have great talent. Looks like you trimmed some of the nostril that was a bit big in the set of photos just before these. The nose is looking much better...it's funny his face in the photos is rather long and narrow and it is only the relatively small size of his nose and the "baby fat" of the bottom of his cheeks that give him a fullish look at all. Still think the chin is a tad too square...in the full length photo with trench coat and flying cap the shadow under the mouth forms an upside down arc indicative of a bit of a smooth round protusion or nob...if his chin was an apple I would say more Macintosh and less Red Delicious. So funny trying to describe with words what is best shown in the form. Of course as has been said it is subjective...and my comments remain humbly submitted.
Although, I have dabbled in sculpture and other art forms...have neither the time nor desire to defend to the peanut gallery my already admitted "opinion" as just that...one man's opinion. You have my respect for both your artistry and your appreciation of the feedback offered from another man's eye. The goal of your art, as you have stated, is accuracy...and clearly you recognize, as most artists do that, after a while, the process breeds a familiarity with the subject that can often blind the artist. The hope is to achieve a high percentage before you lose interest...as all art is abandoned - never finished.
So now... at the risk of drawing more flak from the great unwashed...here's the big challenge...how do you take these obviously posed photos and interpret their static expression enough to generate facial expressions that would more appropriately convey the concentration and intensity of flying a combat aircraft? Since that is where these guys end up...at the controls.
Even as I post I'm thinking I would rather PM...I guess other than ooohs and ahhhhs...and the photos of your awesome progress...maybe I'm adding something to the thread for your customer to consider about how painstaking the process really is...every nuance, every detail, every decision...and the value of the end result...well beyond the price. I've seen Sailor Malan...incredible. Watching your transformative process rather than just seeing the end result is the best entertainment on RCU and the best advertisement you could ever produce. Bravo!
11-14-2011, 11:41 AM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Best Pilots would like to present the "Most In-Depth review of a Pilot Figure" award to... envelope please... to Transatlanticflight! [Applause]
11-14-2011, 12:35 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Researching definite reference material for WWI German flight gear is meager compared to the books and books on WWII flight gear! It seems the Germans had standard issue, but it was supplemented by personal gear purchased by the pilot. I have posted the one photo of Lothar, with Manfred, and he is wearing the flying coveralls or combination flying suit. I'm thinking that the fur collar turned up would be more visually exciting. So I kind of roughed that in. Now to figure out how it was fasented/buttoned in the front.
11-14-2011, 04:19 PM
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RE: Sculpting a 1/4 scale WWI Lothar Von Richthofen
Transatlanticflight could not be here to receive his award due to a previous engagement nitpicking another thread...
However, he did ask me to read a prepared statement, and I quote,
"I'd like to thank Best Pilots, all of my fans, the hecklers, my publicist, RCU, The World 1/4 scale Model Pilots Association, The RCU Hyper-critical Critics Commission...and most of all...early winter boredom...without you all, I never would have achieved this great honor. Thank you and God bless."
However, he did ask me to read a prepared statement, and I quote,
"I'd like to thank Best Pilots, all of my fans, the hecklers, my publicist, RCU, The World 1/4 scale Model Pilots Association, The RCU Hyper-critical Critics Commission...and most of all...early winter boredom...without you all, I never would have achieved this great honor. Thank you and God bless."
