Dear FS One community,

Any of you pick up the expansion pack yet? I just picked mine up and much to my pleasant surprise, the LHS had it at $19.99 instead of $29.99 as listed on http://www.horizonhobby.com . Sweet. Installation was smooth but I haven't had enough time on the new models to tell you much of value yet. I wish this expansion pack included 2 new pano locations, that would have made it feel like a beefier expansion. What are your impressions?

- K

WHAT!!! IT'S OUT!!! I GOT TO GO TO DA SHOP TOMORROW!!!!

LATER

Cool or what.. What's your take on it..

Hm... first model in this expansion pack I'm investigating is the T-Rex 450 SA. Is it just my setup or does this heli feel like it's on crack? Here are my problems so far, and I already ruled out Tx issues since using my DX7 and the stock TacCon produces similar results. I've calibrated many times, but interestingly enough, the T-Rex calibration tool is the old style one where it asks you to move certain switches/sticks, versus the new one that was included with the heli performance patch that asks you to move an input until you see the output move ... not very consistent. Here are the problems:

1) When you spin up the rotor, the rotors don't move but the heli starts to yaw anyway. When throttle is about 50%, then the rotors start moving graphically and the yaw forces go a little haywire. Sometimes rudder-right gives no effect while on the ground.
2) The heli will fall backwards upon lift-off in a very violent manner without stick input... even if you counter it with forward cyclic, it will still drop it back as if center of gravity is way off ... like a 5lb lead weight is sitting on the tail. Or maybe it just wants to constantly give up elevator, I don't know. For now, I compensated by trimming on my Tx.
3) Once it's in the air, it is currently flying more like a mosquito-on-crack than the CP Pro. Haha, is this really how it flies, you T-Rex owners?
4) Tx setttings for the TacCon and the 6-ch JR Emulator are completely different... where you have different expo rates from 15% up to 75% for rudder in the emulator Tx. Maybe this is the desired settings, not sure, but the feel is very touchy and foreign.
5) The tail rotor seems to provide so much sideways thrust that the heli has to be a good 10-15 degrees banked to the right to counter it... is that really how a T-Rex feels?

There are a lot more problems than this ... but I'll start with these for now. : )

What is going on here? I don't own a T-Rex 450 (yet) but I am sure it doesn't fly like this. Can anyone else verify? Perhaps a legit T-Rex pilot?

I hope the rest of the expansion pack models isn't going to be fidgity like this... : ) Or maybe I just need to get used to this fidgity style of aircraft.

- K

Spent some time on the E-flite CP Pro tonight, why is the yaw way off to the left? I have to use 75% of my Tx trim to give rudder right to keep the thing straight despite calibrating... : ( I tested this on both my DX7 and the stock TacCon controller. How does a glaring error like this get past QA on a product fit for release? It's really too bad...

- K

That sounds very disappointing. I was going to buy the expansion pack just to get the T-Rex 450 SA.

My T-Rex doesn't fly like you describe at all, it is very easy (for a heli) to fly. Mind you, the only other heli I've flown is a Blade CP Pro, my T-Rex is much easier to fly.

The T-Rex in real life flies fairly similar to the 50 size JR glow heli from the original FS One, no bad habits.

Hopefully the developers will respond to your post.

Malcolm

M, due to your comments, I spent some more time investigating today, and there is definitely something not right with the T-Rex 450. The CP Pro flies a lot more stable (save the yaw issue I described above) and this is probably not the case in RL. The Vigor in the FS One original line-up is ten times more stable than how the T-Rex feels right now. I think what happened is that they wanted to release it before November and figure patches can solve these issues later. I know the FS One team constantly monitors these forums so they are aware of customer feedback. I strongly urge the other community members who bought this expansion to chime in with comments, they will address and fix our issues.

I spent a fair amount of time on the Hangar 9 PTS P-51 Mustang, and all I have to say is, BAM! This thing is hot stuff. I think the rest of the new planes fly pretty well too, although I've only spent about 15 minutes on each. The F-22 feels vastly underpowered and is prone to stalls, is this the case in RL? Overall, the planes seem very well done and the helis seem to have been duct-taped together without thorough video testing. I'm sure there will be a heli performance pack 2 very soon.

- K

K - I'm surprised to hear of your concerns regarding the T-Rex. We did extensive flight testing/tuning of the flight model and our test pilots claimed that the performance was very real and accurate. It's a very responsive and maneuverable heli.

I do not see the same things you report. Tx settings often play a major role is how airplanes and helis "feel" when flying. Are you using the TacCon or are most your your comments and observations when using your DX7? Try flying using the TacCon. Do a full calibration and then see how it handles.

In the meantime, I'll investigate further to see if I can duplicate your situation.

B, thanks for looking into it.

I told you guys the FS One team is on top of customer feedback. : ) I was really hoping to buy one of these helis in the near future... but not if it flies like this! : ) Here is my most recent test flight of the T-Rex 450:

1) Plugged in TacCon controller and selected it. This is the old-calibration interaction, where it specifies what to move and when.
2) Calibrated it, following the instructions to the letter.
3) Selected an indoor Pano location with no wind, flight mode on start-up is in Normal Mode, all trims are centered.

Attempt #1:

- Throttle stick to 50%, rotors graphically don't move but the heli starts to yaw. Rudder right cannot counter the left yaw. Rotors suddenly spin up.
- Upon lift-off, the helicopter does the crazy gyration bug where it spins madly counter-clockwise to the left.
- I let it crash and press the Reset button.

Attempt #2:

- Throttle stick slowly to 50% and rotors do not spin up graphically but the heli acts like it has some lift... same as above.
- Upon lift-off, the helicopter does the crazy gyration bug where it spins madly counter-clockwise to the left.
- I let it crash and press the Reset button.

Attempt #3:

- Same gyration bug so I toggle the idle-up and back to normal, it crashes but appears that right-rudder finally has influence.

Attempt #4:

- it acts as normal on lift-off.
- once in the air, it has crazy backwards cyclic with trims at middle.
- it also has crazy left rudder input more than the tail-rotor effect, with trims in middle.
- I adjust the trims to compensate.

Attempt #5:

- Crazy gyration bug again to the left.

Attempt #6:

- Flyable!
- Jittery and still requires 10-15 of constant tilt to the right to counter the tail rotor's forces, but this just may be normal for a T-Rex 450, not sure.

Attempt #7:
- after trimming, I flipped the switch for Idle-Up mode.
- was able to fly as normal, loops and rolls -- Sweet I'm Alan! ... for a second. I landed it and this attempt was successful. But why did it take me 7 attempts to get here? : (

Attempt #8:
- back to normal mode.
- tried to lift off, and got crazy gyration bug again... not a happy camper.

I was hoping a real T-Rex 450 owner would jump in and be able to comment on the realism. All I can credibly comment no are the bugs. Having 2 successful flights out of 8 attempts because the heli acts unpredictably seems like a technical issue. Let me know if you find any solutions to these issues I described above. Thanks!

- K

K -

From what you describe, I think your transmitter is not calibrated correctly or something like that.

For now, pick one of the original helis in the sim. Calibrate the TacCon controller. Then go back to the T-Rex. Do not recalibrate. You don't need to recalibrate again and again ... but you do need to have a proper calibration once.

When I do that (and I'm a not heli pilot), I find the T-Rex pretty easy to fly. It does have a lot of control authority, but I can add collective and hover very easily from the outset. I'm not doing anything special. That's why I think something about your setup is amiss.

At the end of the calibration, move the sticks and check to see that they are centered in the sim (for joysticks and dial), i.e. the sliders on the screen are centered when the sticks are released. The buttons and switches will be center or full to one side.

Michael

K - Thanks for the info. Ok, I have a couple comments.

First, we have a patch that includes a fix for the gyration problem. We were going to release it previously, but decided to add in a few more fixes and improvements/features before releasing it. It should be ready for QA in a few days and it if checks out okay, it should be released next week. I think this will address most of the problems you are reporting. We're always improving things, so some of these changes and improvements were not available when the Hangar Pack went to press.

Second, try starting in Normal mode with the collective input fully down. In this case, the rotor should be motionless at start. The advance the collective slowly -- the rotor will begin turning and build speed to hover rpm. Then you can lift off smoothly and once in a good hover can "Idle Up" and go to Stunt mode. You will find that the T-Rex is stable in flight, but very responsive. I'm running 1.0.9 (not yet released) and things do not gyrate as you mention.

I hope this helps until we release the next patch. The T-Rex is really a joy to fly, but it sounds like your start-up problems are not joyful but quite frustrating. Hang in there, and next week things will improve further.

That sounds promising, B.

Dr. Selig, I followed your suggestions and I'll report what happened below. I'm happy to help diagnose problems, but in the end, I just want to be a happy customer and use the off-the-shelf product, not volunteer QA!

Stock CP (original FS One aircraft):
- Loaded the stock CP, and the TacCon CP Tx.
- Calibrated according to instructions. All sliders appear as desired when centered.
- Had crazy gyration bug over half of the attempts, this didn't happen pre-patch.
- It flew pretty normal, and spun up normal. The yaw to the left was noticeable and strong so I trimmed it on the TacCon.
- Afterwards, I verified the sliders in the Tx selection screen. The rudder input is indeed now several ticks right of center but that's what it takes to keep the CP from spinning.

T-Rex 450 SA (expansion aircraft):
- Loaded up the T-Rex aircraft and the TacCon Tx.
- I did not recalibrate as you suggested. Throttle at 0% when I hit load, and switch is in Norma Flight Mode position.

Problem 1: Gyration Bug/Issue.
Problem 2: Same result with the throttle spin-up, no response until half stick.
Problem 3: I had to re-trim the controller even though it was in-line for the Blade CP, on the T-Rex, I had to push cyclic trim forward by 3-5 clicks, the heli just wants to drop its tail into the ground.

I can't figure out why there would be a marked difference in the controls if it's a calibration issue. As you said, it should be the same as when I flew the CP moments before if I don't need to recalibrate. Most mysterious. So, I repeated the above sequence with my DX7 Tx:

Stock CP (original FS One aircraft):
- Loaded the stock CP, and the DX7 CP Tx using the 6-ch JR Emulator as you had suggested in an earlier post on the FS One thread.
- Calibrated according to instructions. All sliders appear as desired when centered.
- No gyration issue in 5 flights.
- It flew pretty normal, and spun up normal. The yaw to the left was noticeable and strong so I trimmed it and it took 7 clicks right rudder, on the DX7 digital trim.
- Afterwards, I verified the sliders in the Tx selection screen. The rudder input is a little right of center.

T-Rex 450 SA (expansion aircraft):
- Loaded up the T-Rex aircraft and the DX7 Tx with 6-ch JR emulator.
- I did not recalibrate as you suggested. Throttle at 0% when I hit load, and switch is in Norma Flight Mode position.

Problem 1: Gyration bug right away, and persisted for several attempts. I didn't do anything, it just went away on its own but also returns on its own.
Problem 2: Heli does not spin up until 50% stick, same as above.
Problem 3: Once in the air successfully, I had to do the same trim job with rudder needed right compensation, and cyclic needing forward compensation, same results as the TacCon controller.

Would these results suggest it is not a calibration issue or a Tx-specific issue? I'm glad the gyration bug is being addressed in a patch. How about this 50% stick problem? Do I just have to live with actively trimming the different models I fly on my Tx as well? Thanks for your hard work and continued support of this product.

- K

I played it at my LHS and I wasnt to impressed. There was not that many planes on it for one and they new planes were mostly trainers. There was 3 versions of the p-51 and the raptor. I really didnt like that to much. The showtime seemed really snappy but the real one is like that. I did like the extra and the brio ( Think thats what is called) They could have put a more wide variety of planes. Were they just doing to try to catch up the g3.5 add ons? What about the x100, or the 27% extra. Thats just my opinion


rc-plane

Just bought my Hangar Pack 1 today and I agree. The T-Rex 450 flies more like a real Blade CP Pro. My real T-Rex is very solid and doesn't have the light unpredictable feel that it has in the simulator. The 50 size heli that came with the original FSOne flies more like my T-Rex that then new edition.

Also noticed that the Brio lunges down when you give down elevator. Haven't flown the real one, but it didn't seem right.

Feedback for future packs. Less trainers. People buy simulators to learn to fly real RC electric, gas, & glow planes & helis. I completely understand having a few good trainers, but the Raptor and P51 don't add to the program in my opinion. And why add the Blade CX2 & CP Pro to the simulator? Too close to the others that are already on it.
I learned to fly real planes by flying the FSOne Funtanas, Edge 540. I wanted the challenge of learning, and simulators are an inexpensive way to learn to fly the fun planes.
If it wasn't for the Align T-Rex 450SA I wouldn't have bought this expansion pack, although the Showtime is a nice addition.

Love FSOne, just trying to give feedback to improve future releases. And I hope a patch comes out VERY fast for the Hangar Pack 1 T-Rex.


Kraig

I agree, after playing with the expansion pack more, I think I would have liked more planes, variety of planes, and most importantly, variety of manufacturers despite being a Horizon-branded simulator. I'm glad a real T-Rex owner was able to validate the feel of the sim's 450. I fly my planes at a field with a couple regular 450's in the air and they do not look that unstable even in wind. : )

- K

Can anyone post a full listing of the new models in the hangar pack?

Hopefully the 1.0.9 is released very soon and not delayed like the release of FSOne. A lot of people purchased Hangar Pack 1 exclusively for the T-Rex 450, and that's one of the models that has sever glitches, or at least doesn't perform anything like a T-Rex 450. Hopefully the testing of this patch includes someone very familiar with the feel and performance of a T-Rex checking it out.

Just looking forward to flying a T-Rex on the snowy and rainy days in Winter.

Keep us posted.


Kraig

I agree, the T-Rex 450 was what I was most interested in. I was going to buy the expansion for sure, but unless this is fixed, I won't be buying.

With G4 being released shortly, I think FS-One needs some improvements ASAP. Upgrades seem to be two steps forward, one, or maybe two steps back.

I have two friends who will be buying flight sims in the next couple of months. I have told them that I can't recommend FS-One at this point.

Malcolm

The 1_0_9 patch does address concerns in this thread regarding the T-Rex. (The patch will be in QA testing for a couple more days, but it is indeed complete and will be available soon.)

With the 1_0_9 patch applied, the start-up instabilities mentioned in this thread are eliminated. We actually modified a number of areas, including improving gearbox rotational inertia effects. We have also added a few new features for helis, including improved start locations as well as the ability to adjust the start heading (pointing away, pointing left or right).

We have very experienced T-Rex pilots that have helped tune the performance of the T-Rex and I expect that once this start instability is addressed, people will agree that the T-Rex model is very realistic and enjoyable to fly.

A final note is that we have received favorable feedback concerning our "Heli Performance Update" and we feel that the 1_0_9 patch will address some other heli concerns in an equally favorable light.

What the heck is up with the calibration rountine? I've read about people having calibration problems, so I didn't recalibrate my TacCon since I got the simulator.

I found the lastest helicopter patch made the Raptor 50 very sensitve, so I recalibrated my TacCon. Huge mistake. The Blade CP still flies okay, but the Raptor 50 is unusable. The tail is pretty much uncontrollable, it is like the gyro is failing every few seconds.

The calibration screen appears to be changed, and is a huge step backwards, it looks like version 0.50. Why doesn't it tell me which control to move? But more importantly, why doesn't it work properly? I tried to recalibrate twice, same problem.

I am getting extremely frustrated with FS One, and the whole support issue is really problematic. I will try the next patch I have read about, and if it doesn't resolve the issues I've had, I will try and return the product to my LHS.

Malcolm

Malcolmm, I've had some success editing the Tx software parameters. Sometimes, you may find that adjusting the Expo Rate or the travel on each channel making a world of difference. How is the tail uncontrollable? Is the heli constantly rotating left or right or wagging?

How's the rain in YVR treating ya? : )

Malcolm -- The calibration instructions were different, but the calibration internal functions were not changed, so you should feel confident re-calibrating your controller as long as you re-calibrate each axis and button (users often forget to press the InstantUp and ResetPlus buttons, the top switches, or the rotate the top right knob).

However, the calibration instructions have been changed to the "standard" TacCon calibration in the 1_0_9 patch (currently in QA testing and expected to be released in a couple days). This will help clarify each calibration step for your TacCon. We'll continue to use the "standard" TacCon calibration for future patches and updates.

We cannot reproduce the problem you report with the Raptor 50 (actually a Voyager 50) in the sim -- for us, it flies reliably. If you provide some more details, we'll try to help you figure out what is wrong with your setup that is causing your problem.

JUST as I was about to GIVE UP totally on this FS=ONE sim. BRIAN appeared out of nowhere ! He worked for HOURS helping me out, connected directly to my PC.......Now I have a working SIM, even with the PAK 1 , and I am mostly interested in the T-REX like most of you here, and I AGREE with everything KHATSALANO has posted......I will subscribe to this thread. I am waiting for the PATCH, and I have made peace with FSONE, in the nick of time......( I had RealFlight all the way from the original issue + every AddOn ) and gave it up for FSO
Thanks, Brian, Mr. TIMOTHY, in FS-ONE


EDITED : ten minutes after POSTING this :

Went back to use FS-ONE after yesterday's 4 hour fix.........IT NO LONGER WORKS just as it did, prior to the fix .....BUMMER .... I will probably totally give up on this[]

NEVER IN MY 70 YEARS OF EXISTENCE have I received the LEVEL OF SERVICE that FS-ONE provided for me this morning :
after having worked with me for 4 + hours, Mr. MIKE TIMOTHY of HorizonHobby
happened to read about how the SIM didn't work (again)...just from reading my previous post on this thread !!!!!
SO : unsolicited, he phoned me, took over the problems, FIXED THEM, gave a complete PRIMER on procedures and set me up once more.

It's strange : I was beginning to HATE this SIM...........now I can plainly SEE that it is THE BEST

ONE CONFIRMED USER : RICK

The issues were all centered around the DX-7, and the WIRELESS connection and especially around the HELI TRAINING and the T-REX

one devoted FAN of FS-ONE

way to GOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ps the pic. shows why I need a SIM !!!!!!

Hey Barrick,

You sound like a guy who's gone through five marriages. : ) Don't keep changing your mind. (Joking of course... about the marriages.) Realflight, FMS, Reflex, and others are all good sims. I like FS One and I got it because the graphics are the most realistic and the physics are just plainly correct. I've tried out RealFlight extensively and will continue to practice on it everytime I visit the LHS kiosk just so I can learn subtle differences and add it to my learning toolbag. I find RealFlight is much easier than FS One but when I go to the field, I fly much more like I do on FS One than on RealFlight. That's why I'm still here despite the problems... and that's why I document them instead of just whining. The folks behind this product are responsive to problem-solving communications.

Sure, it is too bad that FS One requires so much troubleshooting from the user to get it to work but when it's configured properly, it's fun and a great training tool. I am sure all sims have their own issues too; FS One happens to be newer than the others so obviously some wrinkles will need to be ironed out. Once that happens, I do believe this is the superior physics engine and a more powerful platform. I have the grass-is-always-greener trait in my personality too, but bugs can be fixed if the developers have the will. A bad product is something that can't be 'fixed.' : )

Your picture is the perfect case study for why a sim is cost efficient in the very short run as well as a longer time horizon.

- K