if you read that carefully he says he suggests to run it at 32:1 which basicly means he knows motorcycles and not airplane engines. i would think his words were based on giving a margin of safty. i dont understand the need to run such lean mixtures that everyone trys for anyhow. 80:1-100:1 the motors run good at 32:1 and have great protection. the rings seal better and the seals seal better which makes the motor run better and last longer. if theres a reason other then cleanup, id like to hear it. also i believe the engine destroying hard carbon deposits are more likely to form from lean mixtures. the more oil in the cylinder, the softer the buildup seems to stay.[sm=confused.gif]

a knew pat roy was from california. theres a lot of smog out there so i hear. the airs a little cleaner in florida being a peninsula. we need air filters anyway.

Josey,

Pennzoil at 50:1 will do just fine. I also run Belray at 50:1 and have been for quite a few gallons in different engines and I'm doin' just peachy on all of them

I fly a little over 120 hours a month. None of it in California[8D]

That doesn't count, 3D isn't allowed!!! LOL I want to run at 50:1 for clean-up and power. I also want an oil good enough to know I'm protecting my engine. I think I'll be there when the Amsoil arrives. Hurry up and get home safe buddy.

IS THAT ACTUAL AIR TIME OR TOTAL TIME DEDICATED TO THE FIELD??

Air time only, recorded to the nearest tenth of an hour. Lou55 knows what I do.... Thanks Lou. I should be back in the neighborhood soon.

Nothing but air!

Anytime brother!! That's great news!!

Amsoil Saber oil is designed to run at 100:1. Amsoil says it is okay to mix it down to about 65:1, should you feel you need that extra lubrication, but you should never mix Saber more than 50:1. If you want to run an Amsoil product more than 50:1 you need to order there competition Dominator 50:1 oil. Hope this helps answer you question a little better than has been so far. Good luck.

Lou55

I used to be a fan of Amsoil until I actually stress tested it. I am sure you have seen the web page on the test. It is listed earlier in the thread. Lubrication is fine but the carbon formation is hard and brown. Similar carbon formation was noted with both dominator at 40:1 and saber at 100:1. While there are a lot of vocal fans of 100:1, the engine wear started to show quickly on the test engine. Engine wear is also an issue with the "professional uav" guys who also tried amsoil 100:1.

I had just purchased a couple of cases of Dominator before I ran the test. Knowing that I would not be using the oil, I sent it to a Amsoil fan who helped me post the pictures for the cost of shipping.

Hope this helps
Elson

Elson,

Your results mirror ours with the Amsoil. If the engine is loaded to near max output the oil fails the engine rather quickly. It was better than 3W oil, but not by much. The Belray (both), Pennzoil aircooled, and a few others have proven to be far superior for engines pulling heavy loads or enduring extended flight times. Although very few of the engine pulling r/c aircraft endure the loads and stresses of "heavy" use, the lessons learned about properties and capabilities of special use oils applies across the board. Someone going with a pusher design needs to pay extremely close attention to oil qualities.

BTW, As I recall you're a professional flyer in your field as well so you get included with the "professional uav" guys

From what I remember of a post he created some time ago about what he does, he stress tests his engines pretty well. [X(] on an almost daily basis so when he speaks of oil and what is happening, I'll listen intently.

I would bet that a lot of us know what you do Pat....and though we highly admire you for it, and look up to you for the experience and knowledge you can share....we would much rather your ***** be back home So i'm gonna go ahead and speak for all of us that DO KNOW...and say again GET HOME SAFE and SOON!

Chad

So I should be good with the Saber at about 75:1 as I don't think you could call my flying "heavy use" by any stretch of the imagination!! LMAO Just have to keep Kyle away from my planes! LOL

You stick the box in his hands and just what the heck do you think he's gonna do?

One of the best things about what I do for a living is the tremendous amount of continuous learning that takes place with products that directly transfres and relates to R/C. With smaller platforms a lot of what's used for the platform is the same as what's used in what we all do for fun. There are some incredible differences in control technologuy and other stuff but some of it remains the same.

arobatx,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm with you all the way on the part about where my heinie should be

Here's something that a few uninformed may want to argue about, but I won't join into the arguement. Where I'm at is A LOT safer place than it was a couple of years ago. The job here is very near done and I would not be surprised to see a lot of people coming home in the next 12 months. All those people in uniform have been doing an absolutely OUTSTANDING job, and the general population shows their gratitude everyday. I'm one of the lucky one's that gets to see the results our people's efforts, all over the country.

Let's see if I can get back on topic. I'm breaking in a Fuji BT-32EI, using Amsoil Saber 100:1. Fuji says to use their oil at 50:1 for break in, then go to 100:1 after a gallon; they also say to use ANY OTHER brand at 25:1, then go to 40:1. As I want to protect my warranty, I mixed the Amsoil at slightly leaner (about 32:1) and can hardly get the engine to run above 1/4 throttle. It misses and cuts out, like it is extremely lean (needles are at factory settings), so I richened it a bit, about 1/4 turn each needle. It will take full throttle now, but smokes like the devil and the rpm's probably don't go over 4000 (18-6 MA Classic prop).

Sounds to me like the oil mix is just too rich for this engine; I also have a lot of black gunk out the exhaust, looks like syrup. Unburned oil, perhaps? Think it would be safe to go to 50:1 on the Amsoil for break-in?

I don;t know about the warranty issues but I just bought some Amsoil Saber and it states not to run it below 50:1. The rep suggexted 75-100:1. I'm pretty sure you have way too much of that particular oil in there.

First, those that choose to run Amsoil have also chosen not to listen to those that have hundreds of hours of use experience with the stuff. But it IS your engine and you can do whatever you want with it. Second, there is not one person that can provide a vaild or suitable answer for mixing oil at 100-1. The only benefit is keeping a lazy person lazy by minimizing the clean up on a plane. It can't cool, It provides minimal lubrication, and leaves zero excess for carrying away combustion and ingested debris. From my perspective it's only a reversed status symbol. If the only reason you go out to the field is to show off a clean and well polished plane, why bother going at all? Take a picture with you instead of the plane and pass it around. Saves a lot of work and you can use a smaller mode of transport.

If you're not racing at high rpm and high heat loads, 25 and 30-1 mixes only causes the development of sludge. The engine will not maintain a cht high enough to alter the viscosity of the oil to any great degree. Hence the syrup all over your plane. It's straight oil with a lot of unburned gasoline. The black stuff will be largely high levels of carbon rather than fine metal particles from the ring seating process. Seating the ring IS NOT the most important part of a break in, it's truly only a very small part. Keeping the engine cold by using a rich mix actually hinders the break in process by preventing the proper thermal cycling of a cast engine case and cylinder head. THAT'S the most important part of a break in, and the part that requires the most time.

Ultra rich oil mixes suggested by manufacturers are there to protect the manufacturer from you, the end user. They are well aware that many people will tune an engine too lean for maximum rpm and fail to consider air flow and cht's, cooking off the engine on the first or second run. They also know that a lot of people will bench run them for extended periods of time at maximum rpm and think that the prop is providing all the airflow the engine needs. Then there's the group that will run them at max rpm on a cowled airplane while sitting over the hot asphalt at the club field for extended periods of time. They KNOW this (they read these forums and still get lot's of returned engines) and so provide instructions to protect themselves from the ignorant. Flood an engine with enough oil and it can be nearly impossible to keep it running, especially at lower rpm counts. Our carbureators are not jetted for these kinds of mixtures and require user modifications to do so effectively. As the oil content in the fuel is increased, the requirement for more oxygen also increases to provide a combustible mix. Straight gas requires an air-gas ratio of 14.7-1 to burn. A two stroke mix runs around 16-1, air-gas-oil, and goes up as the oil increases.

If you break in an engine at ratios from 32-50/1, and tune the engine to avoid a peak or lean of peak rpm, provide adequate cooling, and thermal cycle the engine using normal flight methods the engine will last for a very long time. Avoid hovering, torque rolls, and harriers for the first few tanks. After about 3 hours of running time (notice number of gallons was not used) the engine is as broken in as it will ever be. A little before that is true in the vast majority of engines, but three hours covers them all. You can start doing the fun stuff after about the 5th or 6th tank, but don't over do it, and keep engine cooling forefront in your thoughts when doing so.

Wish I had said that. It would make me seem like a genius.

I am still having a problem with people running Amsoil Saber (100:1 oil) at 50:1 or lower. Once again, if you want to run a 32:1, or 40:1 mix with Amsoil then use Dominator (50:1). Amsoil developed these two oils to run in mix ratios at or slightly richer than the stated 100:1 or 50:1.

For years I have run Dominator at 40:1 in all of my engines. No cooling problems, no stuck rings, excellent compression and excellent idle with very good top end RPM. Elson (RC Bugman) provided excellent comparative information on the way an engine performs when it is heavily loaded and run for long periods of time at full throttle. Of course, there are very few of us who put the type of maximum stress on our engines that Elson did. Under our flying conditions almost any dino or synthetic oil will work fine. I still have a hard time getting my head around a 100:1 or 80:1 mix.

Good cooling air flow is far more important than the brand of oil you use.

Pat Roy,

First of all, thank you for your services. I sincerely appreciate your efforts, and am grateful for people like yourself. Please tell your brothers in uniform the same for me. I travel a lot for my job, and run into uniforms in the airports frequently, and I always make it a point to thank them with a handshake and be on my way. you guys are doing the right thing, and we should all be grateful.

Now, on to my question, I have done my research before purchasing my first gas engine, and have decided to go with a DL-50. I will use Bel-Ray per your recommendation after break-in, what ratio do you recommend? And second, what oil do you use for the initial break-in? And at what ratio?

Also, can you order bel-ray online? I don't have a yamaha shop close by...

This is exactly correct, and here is why: the cast iron ring in its initial state is much softer than the cylinder, dimensionally unstable, and somewhat rough around the machined edges. When heat is applied to the cast iron it expands slightly and wears to a smooth surface while it is still soft. When allowed to cool it hardens somewhat. Repeating the cycle sequentially (and completely!) will yield a ring with a glassy surface which seals extremely well with the cylinder, and which becomes somewhat harder and is very stable dimensionally with the application of heat.

The first few runs are the most important. The ring MUST be brought up to operating temperature, allowed to expand and wear off the rough surfaces, and finally MUST be allowed to cool completely thus stabilizing the ring dimensionally.

Heat to expand (run at regular operating temp), run under moderate pressure (slightly smaller prop in moderate-to-high speed flight) to smooth the ring, cool to harden and stabilize (allow to cool COMPLETELY to ambient). Repeat. Repeat again.

Most of the effects are seen during the first several heat cycles. As Pat said, continue this for 3 hours of flying time.

Great stuff in this thread! Thanks everybody.

Brett

And if you REALLY want to see if this is true shut off a REALLY hot engine sometime without allowing it to cool and watch how fast your ring seizes in the cylinder. Happens in dirt bikes all the time. I always fly a "cool down" lap before landing.

Pat Roy said, "Second, there is not one person that can provide a vaild or suitable answer for mixing oil at 100-1. The only benefit is keeping a lazy person lazy by minimizing the clean up on a plane."


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I use Amsoil at 100:1 in order to keep my model clean. Having had polio at age five, inheriting genetic proclivities that produce peripheral artery disease, etc., I don't need a model that requires a lot of work at the field (cleaning).

I've been running Amsoil 100:1 in all of my two-stroke lawn equipment for years now without a problem. When I switched from 32:1 petroleum two-stroke oil to Amsoil 100:1, I actually had to reduce my engines' idle speed. Ditto with my model gas engines.

Will my engines last the longest possible time running this oil? Who cares! Not a one of my engines has a stuck ring, is down on compression or is showing other signs of early wearing out in five years or longer.

What is appropriate when flying UAV military/commercial engines is not applicable to the average R/Cer. My engines perform just fine, have already lasted longer than I expected and the oil has saved me hours of unnecessarily cleaning up my model. If I have to replace an engine every five years or so, I can live with that, although I have seen nothing to make me think that this is how it is.

The single biggest problem that modelers have with gas engines and their oil is when they try to out guess the manufacturers/warrantors and take it upon themselves to deviate from commonly accepted practices.

If a UAV is flying with a "heavily loaded" engine, the designing engineer did a piss poor job of engine selection. Ditto modelers.


Ed Cregger

Ed,

There are special circumstances. I would think yours is indeed one of them.

UAV's are designed around range, payload, stealth, and weight. Essentially following a law of minimums. It's a fine balance, especially with the smaller ones. A Predator, Hunter, or Global Hawk have much more latitude on what they can carry versus what they weigh. Model engines are indeed most suitable for use, as proven by 3W, DA, and Herbranson thousands of times over. There are a couple of others, but not as well known in the U.S. The company I work for purchases more of a certain manufacturer's engines in a month than 100% of the rest of the hobby industry combined...worldwide, and has been doing so for a very long time. Other manufacturers have a similar situation. The reason for that is because they work so well for the application. When you fly missions that last 10 plus hours on minimum fuel you want a strong, reliable engine that has the endurance to go the distance and bring it home again, over and over. The better modeling engines have exactly that ability. That's not to say the uav industry is locked into specific manufacturers. We're always looking for a better mousetrap.

BTerry,

Thank you

trixer,

Follow the directions on the bottle. Anywhere in between the ratios of 32 and 50-1 with the H1R will be fine. With the MC-1 go with 50-1.