I am trying to ascertain whether or not the Vertigo II is SPA "legal". It is a contemporary of the Phoenix 6, so it should be SPA "legal". The P-8 is legal, and I am certain that it came out well after the Vertigo II. However, I cannot find any documentation to support my contention.

Bob Reuther and Tom Moore are listed on the plans as the airplane's designers. Does anyone know these gentlemen, are they still on the Earthly plane? If anyone knows them, would you please kindly pass this request along to them? They would be the best source to document the year the airplane was designed.

Thank you kindly for any assistance,
Robert

Posted from the Vertigo II build thread:


"The Vertigo II was reviewed in the December 1976 issue of RCM and SPA legal is December 1975 or earlier. Reviews usually happen shortly after a kit is released but, going by Cranks piece of newspaper, perhaps not this one."


Here is the text of an e-mai lthat I sent to RCM. Hopefully they will be able to help out.

Hello,

I am a "classic pattern" enthusiast, and I am seeking documentation showing that the pattern airplane known as the "Vertigo II", kitted by Skyglas Fabricators during the mid 1970's was designed prior to December of 1975. This date is the cutoff date for an airplane design to be eligible for competition in the "Senior Pattrn Association", a special interest group that promotes pre-turnaround style R/C pattern competition.

My own involvement with this airplane occurred back in the mid 1970's, where as a teenage boy, (and RCM subscriber) I built and flew several of these airplanes. I originally learned of this airplane through an ad in RCM. Ihave also been informed that RCM did a review of this kit in the December 1976 issue. I am now resurrecting this classic design as are other builders, and it would be very positive if it can be approved for SPA competition.

I would like to know if you have any of these back issues, either in print, or in electronic format, and their availability for purchase. At a minumum, a photocopy of an advertisement from a back issue (December 1975 or prior) on the same of the December 1976 review would be sufficient to show that the design meets the SPA eligibility criteria. My goal here is to aquire this documentation for submission to the SPA.

Any help that you can provide would be deeply appreciated by myself, and the classic pattern community. Of course, I will be more than happy to cover the costs of any material that you can provide.

Best regards,
Robert Fish
"


If anyone out there has any back issues with this info, or anything else, please PM me and we can get this done.

Best regards,
Robert

The first time I saw the plane was at Dan Gipe's factory at WING MFG. He now has the mold for that plane, and is considering producing it. It is a sharp-looking plane, and one of the "bridge" airplanes to the "ballistic-type" aircraft of the late 1070s...like the Curare, and Dirty Birdy. Unfortunately, Dan has not been able to do the "legwork" necessary to get concrete data of the date of its first flight, (or design). I know he would be interested in the plane being declared "legal" by Mickey Walker (founder of SPA, and official "approver" of aircraft).

KLXMASTER14

If there is a review in the Dec 1976 RCM, then it makes it much more likely the plane was designed prior to the Jan 1976 SPA legal plane cut-off....the reason being the delay between when an article is written and the time it is published. Articles are usually written at least 2-3 months before being pubished. That takes it to at least Sept of 1976.

For the plane to be "KNOWN", and to get enough of a reputation so someone will WANT to print something about it, it has to be noticed. For that to happen, it has to fly, be seen by the right people, and to get some sort of positive reputation.

Progressing backwards, for the plane to be noticed etc, it first has to be designed, then built then flown, in the right places.....all of these take time, so I think there is a very good chance the plane is SPA-legal, but it will need official documentation, either in the form of an article, or a letter from the designer.

If you are like me, (with the heart of a detective), I'd start by Google-ing the designers. You may get lucky and get some leads.

It is very satisfying when you take a little bit of extra effort to "chase down" something that interests you, and do the necessary research. Sometimes just a little extra effort, (a small push on the door), will open it up. I think this might be one of those cases.

That was how the World Model Intruder got reintroduced, and ultimately improved for SPA flying....that little extra effort to "push on the door" and see if it opens.

Good luck
Duane

[quoteIf there is a review in the Dec 1975 RCM][/quote]

Probably a typo Duane. The Vertigo II was reviewed in the December 1976 RCM and the earliest ad I could find for it was in the March 1976 RCM. Must have been designed, built and flown sometime in late 1975 and should therefore be SPA legal. (SPA cut off 31/12/75)

Ray

Probably a typo Duane. The Vertigo II was reviewed in the December 1976 RCM and the earliest ad I could find for it was in the March 1976 RCM. Must have been designed, built and flown sometime in late 1975 and should therefore be SPA legal. (SPA cut off 31/12/75)

Ray
[/quote]

No "probably" about it...although Ray, I just went back and looked at my post....it says 1976...you must have misunderstood what I typed

RAY-You have done it again

Could you scan and post that ad showing the date. That might be enough in and of itself, but I think he needs a little more.

This should be "a piece of cake" as we say in the US, compared to the tortured history we have been working on for the Taurus

Duane,

I posted the ad on the other VertigoII thread but here it is again. Unfortunatly there is no date on the page but I am sure Mr Walker could obtain a copy of the actual magazine to check. I have posted the cover for reference and also because I just like looking at it

That edit button is very useful isn't it

Ray

Edit button................................what edit button??????[8D]

I am going to submit the Vertigo II via e-mail to Mickey Walker on the strength of what we already have. A little logic should sufficiently prove the plane was designeed prior to the 1-1-76 cutoff. Of course, as the "Taurus thread" proves, conventional logic may not always apply.

Ill get back to you

Duane

I thank you guys for your help. If I get any response or useful material from my query to RCM, I will submit that as well.

Best regards,
Robert Fish

any one have a skyglass catalog or even a catalog from hobby barn as they used to sell skyglass kits?I have a vertigo 2kit by skyglass with damaged foam wings that I can check for a date on the plans

Hey - Don't forget. I have two Skyglas Vertigo II's. One is in the original box, and there is a newspaper on the bottom of the box, looks like it came with the kit, from TN. It is dated November 11, 1974.

Crank

Bob Reuther passed away about 2 months ago. He was a legend in the Nashville area. I grew up flying at the same field he did. I didn't know he helped design the Vertigo II.

Good luck!
Larsen

I submitted the information Ray and Crankpin gave yesterday to Mickey Walker....founder of SPA, and approver of all new "legal aircraft".....see below

Hi Duane, The magazine is enough for me. Your reasoning is correct about the cut off date, lead time etc. I will contact Ed, (Hartley) and have him add it to the National list I have already put it on mine. Thanks. Mickey.

So you are GOOD TO GO as far as SPA is concerned

I have also notified Dan Gipe of Wing Mfg who owns the mold for the Vertigo II

Sometimes a little push....opens the door

I'm sorry Bob Reuther didn't live to see his plane added to the SPA list. I'm sure he would have enjoyed seeing one of his "children" appreciated so much.

Duane

OO-RAH!!! Vertigo II SPA legal!! To all concerned, thank you. Teamwork makes stuff happen.

-Robert

Well done Robert, Duane and Vince - we got a result. I hope there will be a lot more Vertigo IIs around now.

I find that very surprising. Thought it was much later than Dec 75.

Ray

Ray,

You can count on it. I am also sorry that Mr. Reuther is not present to see his bird regain life. Hopefully he is looking down from upon high, and approves. I am going to dedicate my build thread to his memory.

-Robert

The PHOENIX 8 has a quirky history as far as being declared SPA-legal. The arguement was made that since the EARLY PHOENIX SERIES is legal, the whole series should also be legal, (through to the Phoenix 8). I don't agree with that line of thinking, but the decision was made long ago.

Interestingly, since I've been associated with SPA, (2005), I have not seen a single Phoenix 8, (or ANY Phoenix for that matter) at a contest. I believe the reason has to do with the small engine compartment of the Phoenix 5 through 8. These planes were obviously designed to be used with a tuned pipe and a hot .61 in a cramped engine compartment. The planes that do best in SPA, (such as the DADDY RABBIT on the mock cover or PHANTOM 1 that President Bruce Underwood flys), have a larger wing area, and can handle the popular, (and larger/heavier) .91 OS Surpass II.

The Dirty Birdy seems to be the exception, and seems equally at home with a .91 or .61 2-stroke. The D.B. are built LIGHT if they have the 4-stroke.

Duane

This is a VI, and I have another one started right behind it, plus a couple of V's and two Vertigo's. If I can get myself dialed in, and fly just one-fourth as good as those days, these will be my SPA planes, and the Intruder's can just sit. I am trying to have this one done for Miami, Nov. 1 & 2. This is my first experience with Rossi, but I have been buying some OS Max 61SF's, so they are good insurance.

Gary up in Huntsville won the Phoenix 8 I had on E-Bay, he said it is on the building board. There is a Phoenix 7 on RCU, maybe it is RC Group's, forget right now. The 7 pictures attached.

Crank

What engine is that in picture #1, and is it intended for BPA or SPA?

Can you tell me the wingspan of the Vertigo II......I don't see it in the ad.

Duane

Duane - That is a Rossi 60, in the Phoenix 6. It has retract's, so can be flown with the gears down, in SPA Novice ? Latest Rossi 60 version, as far as I know, purchased about 5 months ago, AXE Rossi. It has a Mac's Muffler. Not seeing many Phoenix 6's in SPA competition, I would think that 99% of them are built with retract's. Meaning that, if some of us older guy's are going to build a Phoenix, we would naturally put retract's in it, and if not, why build it at all ?

I will be painting the P-6 in a little while, look at the Vertigo plans when out there.
Vince

In the 70s RCM had a very long lead time from design submission to publication. I submitted my Cold Duck design (that was desinged in 1969) in September of 1970 and it was not published until the June 1971 issue. The plans were submitted in pencil only and had to be inked by RCM, typed or hand written articles that had to be set by RCM for printing, etc. It was a long process!

Wingspan= 64"

-Robert

Thanks KLX.

Crank

This is wonderful news! I love the Vertigo II's lines.

turbo

"...Why build it at all"?? Well, it's just an opinion, but I think it has a lot more to do with LOOKS rather than performance. Those of us in SPA who are used to building w/o retracts will not miss them at all. Weight is a factor in performance, and most SPA pilots would sacrifice retracts for slightly lower weight and better verticals, (remember the rules are different...no pipes).

I've been through the "pipe/retracts" controversey so many times with different people that I hesitate to even bring this up.....I must be a glutton for abuse.

The original Wing Mfg Phoenix 5 prototype flew at the first BPA event last year...and without retracts. Looked good to me.

Avlwilson - I agree with you. Only voicing my opinion. My flying skill's are not even close to noticing the difference whether I had retract's or not. It would be nice to see the BPA planes accepted into SPA. Miami SPA/BPA contest: Nov. 1 & 2. Orlando, (Apopka), contest: Dec. 6 & 7.
Crank