ytell

What would be the right way to compensate for a crosswind during a loop?
I know of two approaches. In the first you correct your heading by applying rudder (nose into the wind) the second is using ailerons to bank the aircraft into the wind.

The main difference between the two approaches is that if you compensate for wind with nose into the wind and do nothing else, you’ll end up with tail to the wind on top of the loop.

To avoid this you may choose to bank into the wind during the entire maneuver which sounds simpler to follow. But is it legal in terms of FAI rules? In addition I read on TBM site (How to Become an Awesome Pilot) the following tip on loops:

“ If the wind is blowing in or out, use rudder to correct your heading. Never use ailerons to bank to correct heading�.

So is there a correct way of doing it? which way is best? What do you think?

Yoav

cdodom

the bank into the wind should not be so much that it can be noticed. I always use my Ailerons in cross wind loops. it helps keep the bird on a straight track throughout the whole loop, or look like it anyway. lol

also the Bank on the wing should not be that steep. If the judges cant see the bank then they cant downgrade off for it.

Chris Odom
Team Black Magic
Team Dragon Fire
CAA

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

The correct way is to actually use both. You need to yaw into the wind, but in doing so as you pull through the loop your wings will not remain level, so you are constantly correcting your wings as well as maintating the yaw into the wind.

Arch

cdodom

ya arch explained it the best. Thats what I do also but it was kinda hard to explain.

so ya all of the sticks are moving at once. then do a integrated rolling loop in 25mph crosswind, thats when it gets real fun. lol

hey Arch, you goin to the prattville contest?

Chris Odom
Team Black Magic
Team Dragon Fire
CAA

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Chris,

I doubt it. I probably wont make a D3 contest until after the NATS. Our schedule is pretty hectic out here, including the contest I'm having in late June...

You should come out with Mike and Dean..

Arch

scratchgolfer

It has always been my practice to set up my box and plan maneuvers so loops, etc. are always into or downwind eliminating correction that effects the appearance of the maneuver.

Patterndude1

Two words "ytell"; "(Crab Angle)"



Matt

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Scratchgolfer,

How to you plan a maneuver to do that so that you dont' ever have a crosswind? At a contest you don't have a choice, you can't just rotate the box. Very rarely have I ever flown a contest that I didnt have some crosswind component. Honestly having some crosswind really makes you work on the rudder corrections. When it is done right it, it is a thing of beauty.

Arch

jim woodward

Here is my take on crosswind loops (also seen at the Lakeland contest recently with severe blowing in condition).

1. Fundamental #1, is to fly "wings-level" all the time - if you miss this, you miss the whole maneuver concept to follow.
2. Fundamental #2, is to keep the loop in a vertical plane (lets assume that we all make round loops too )

Wind Flying Rule #1: When the plane is under power, moving forward, and "wings-level", the nose ALWAYS SEEKS THE WIND. The plane will always tell you where the wind vector is once you are under power (moving forward) and wings level. These planes want to go into the wind. Therefore you need the rudder correction that keeps you on heading, and this may very well be away-rudder, not into the wind rudder.

Wind Flying Rule #2: When you slow down, the plane always "moves with the wind", regardless of visual attitude of the fuselage. If you are going slow, even on 45 down lines for example, the plane is moving "with the wind" and this must be corrected more severly than "power-on" portions of the maneuver.

So how do you fly with fundamentals #1 and #2, knowing Wind Rules #1 and #2 are influencing the plane, all while your speed evelope is changing? The single correct way to keep all your score, is to fly all 3 control inputs at one time. You must slightly roll the plane so that the "wings stay level" all the time to the vertical plane. You must use Rudder to keep the fuselage attitude countering the wind vector. Use elevator to keep the loop round.
thanks,
Jim

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Great description Jim.

One thing I recommend for anyone starting out in pattern is buying the book Crosswind Flying from Don Apostalico at Don's Hobby. It is a great tool for anyone and a great resource to reference back. It used to be less than 15.00, and I'm sure it should be the same now.

Arch

Jeff Boyd 2

Are you talking about a loop with a full integrated roll ?? . . otherwise . . the yaw will be in the SAME direction at the top (or bottom) of the loop with the SAME rudder input. I.E. start with rudder yawing nose in, and the same rudder will STILL yaw nose in over the top.

Grab your stick plane and check it [sm=regular_smile.gif]

Cheers, JB

cdodom

Arch,

I wish I could come to your contest in late june. but after Andersonville thats it for contests till the NATS,

Every summer I go to work for my grandfather in Rochelle Georgia running a watermelon packin house.

are there any D6 contests in early july? before the NATS

Chris Odom
Team Black Magic
Team Dragon Fire
CAA

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Chris,

Unfortunately no. My contest is the last D6 contest before the NATS.

Arch

jim woodward

Thanks Arch. I have heard good things about Don's crosswind flying book too.
Jim

Taurus Flyer

Gents, about rudder during a loop also without crosswind!

The gyroscopic proces of the rotating propellor (1) does give some movement around the top/vertical (3) axis of the aeroplane on the moment we start the looping (2). (For who does not know, think about the bicycle wheel.)

My resolution is to move the stick not in a straight line to the position for the looping but in a bended line, see picture 2 the green lines. The curve to find out!

The deflection we need for the left rudder action depends on mass and rpm of the prop and engine, and de speed of the elevator movement and rotation acceleration around the traverse axis.

When starting a outside looping inverted I give some right rudder deflection.
It’s only needed when starting a outside looping inverted, so with full power!

Does other pilots does have experienced this also? Let me know your results!
My experience is it can give a better start (position) of the looping and after some time the input is nearly automatic.

This all has nothing to do with crosswind but every little bit can help.
Of course you need everything to make a looping well shaped as told before especially with crosswind!

Cees

KeithB

My Feedback: (1)

I think Brett did a pretty good job of describing the crosswind loop in this post: [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7817683/anchors_7820011/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#7820011]www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7817683/anchors_7820011/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#7820011[/link]

Keith B

Patterndude1

The only topic I disagree with Brett on is the crab angle, He said that "if you keep a 15 degree crab angle throughout the loop when you get half way through the loop and your inverted, you will be going 15 degrees the wrong way".. This is false because the nose of the airplane will always be pointed into the wind no matter where you are positioned in the loop even when you are inverted because you will have an established crab angle which will stay consistent throughout the loop.

Take a look at it from a pilots point of view or the point of view of doing it in a real airplane and it will be alot easier to understand.



Matthew Liprie
Southwest Louisiana Chapter 72. Full Scale Aerobatic Club

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Matt,

What Brett is referring to is that if you don't use aileron to correct the wings level. If you have a 15 degree crab angle and just pull elevator then you wont have the same crab angle. If you dont use your ailerons around the top of the loop then the nose will be pointed away from the wind.

Arch

mjfrederick

Matt, Brett is absolutely correct. I didn't understand it either until Bryan Hebert showed me with a stick plane a couple years ago what happens. When you apply elevator the airplane does not care that you were holding a 15-degree crab angle, it does the loop as if the nose was pointing in the direction of flight. In other words, the entire loop is done at the same 15-degree angle to the intended line of flight. That's how you end up with the crab angle opposite what it was at the top of the loop. Additionally there are rules in the AMA competition regulations that allow for the wing roll during a radius to compensate for crosswind without deduction. Failure to understand this is why so many of the pilots in lower classes have trouble properly judging higher classes. At the last contest I was at one of my buddies and I were receiving terrible scores, or at least scores we did not feel represented how we flew. He finally realized we were being downgraded for compensating for the crosswind. He flew his next flight allowing the wind to blow him wherever it wanted to, and he almost won the round! If you still don't believe me, get with me in Crowley this weekend and I'll show you with my stick plane.

Patterndude1

Yes guys, thats basically what I said. I never disagreed with using ailerons during that, all I was referring to was crab angle...