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GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Old 04-17-2004, 05:28 PM
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Ron Daniels
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Default GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

I've just finished a pair of modified GWS fighters.

Their picture is below.



I am trying to eliminate the tip stall from their flight characteristics. I am going to fly them against stock planes to see if they've improved.

I will also be trying a "hot-rod" cheapy 280 motor in them, as well as 4 different out-runner brushless motors.

Is there enough interest that I should keep posting, as I get data?



Ron Daniels
Maker of RWDRC kits
[link=http://www.rwdrc.com]WWW.RWDRC.COM[/link]
Old 04-17-2004, 05:40 PM
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Morb
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Hey Ron,

What are the specs on the fighters?

Think about an Axi 2208-34 to throw up front.

Geof.
www.smoothair.ca
Old 04-17-2004, 05:55 PM
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Ron Daniels
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Hi Geoff,

I already have 4 Chinese out-runners, of various sizes and winds, that I am going to try out.

They are unbelievably affordible, so if they work well, they may be a great match for these airframes. If they don't, I may try AXI. I love the 2820-10 in my own fighters.


Ron
Old 04-17-2004, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Hey Ron,

Do you have a link to the outrunners from China, I haven't heard anything about them.

What's the weight on your GWS fighters, and what types of servos and other such gear you running inside.

What did you paint them with?

Questions questions questions.. *grin*....Did you re enforce the wings at all?

Geof.
www.smoothair.ca
Old 04-17-2004, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Hi Geof,

I painted them with Tamiya acrylic paint, and - mostly - a brush.

I'm trying out some new, and very affordible servos called "blue bird", that I got through a friend, along with the brushless motors.

I'm running no rudder, but increased the aileron differential to compensate for it.

As I expect to be able to pull more "G's" without snapping out, I did a very minor reinforcement to the wings of the modified planes.

I rarely weigh my airplanes, unless someone else wants to know how much they weigh. Once they are done, I'm stuck with it, and either they'll fly or they won't.

I may weigh these when the paint has fully dried for a few days, though - just because you asked....


Ron Daniels
Old 04-18-2004, 12:15 AM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Thanks Ron..

I actually picked up some of those Bluebird Servos through Henry at www.zebrahobby.ca ..they're great, and a lot cheaper than the GWS Pico BB, and only weigh a fraction more.

Looking forward to your flight reports..

Geof.
www.smoothair.ca
Old 04-18-2004, 01:57 PM
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michael marshall
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

ORIGINAL: Morb

Thanks Ron..

I actually picked up some of those Bluebird Servos through Henry at www.zebrahobby.ca ..they're great, and a lot cheaper than the GWS Pico BB, and only weigh a fraction more.

Looking forward to your flight reports..

Geof.
www.smoothair.ca
I also buy my bluebird servo's throu www.zebrahobby.ca , as well as all my elctronics since they are the cheapest. Where can I get some of those unbelievably affordible brushless motor, If been looking for cheap brushless motors.
Old 04-18-2004, 02:14 PM
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Ron Daniels
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

I'm going to do some testing on those motors, before I release much info on them.

I actually don't even know the brand. The machining is rough, but the price is comparable to decent brushed motors in this size. If they work well, I'll get and release the info about them.

I may test-fly the modified P-51 this afternoon. Hopefully, I'll get a bunch of test-flying in this week.


Ron Daniels
Old 04-18-2004, 07:57 PM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Hi Ron

If u get a chance to post some info that would be great. The flying weight would be handy if u get a chance to weigh them...!

Anything Mustang is good.... very interested to hear how it goes.

Nathan.
Old 04-19-2004, 10:36 AM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Geez, Ron, with the kits you make, why you messin' 'round with GWS stuff? Please post your info as it becomes available; I've got a GWS spitfire sitting on the shelf, and any build tips that may translate to it would be welcome. One of these days, I'll have to get one of your buzzbombs to chase with the spit.
Old 04-19-2004, 01:10 PM
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Ron Daniels
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Hi Nathan,

My Green and silver modified P 51 weighs 452 g, with a full size receiver in it.

My stock one weighs 425 g with a Berg receiver in it. 454g=1lb (for non-metric users...)

Matt,

I like the concept of the GWS/Alpha fighters. I think that they could be good trainer for people who want to eventually fly my stuff. I'm disappointed that guys are complaining that the GWS P-51 and Me 109 kits tip-stall too easily. If I can come up with a simple modification that helps this, then, maybe I can prevent someone from deciding that "all warbirds snap and crash".

Although my stuff has a very docile stall with tons of warning, it is just too fast for a ballpark, or an inexperienced pilot. My Sea Fury flies with a pitch speed of 75 MPH, and about 40 ounces of static thrust. Since the prop is undercambered, the actual top speed may be somwhat in excess of this.

Their is a huge gap in performance between GWS, and my kits, but the idea of low wing, aileron, bigger fuselages, smaller tails, etc, can get people used to it before dropping 6-8 times the power into a similarly sized airplane - my Sea Fury draws 655 W on launch.

Even the V1 is pretty fast. I run a 6 x 4 at about 18000 RPM static, on mine. A mag-mayhem powered Tempest would have a hard time catching it. This is fast enough that a stock GWS Spitfire could not catch it, and may have structural issues, if powered to fly at those speeds. Here is a link to a review of the V1 [link=http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/ronsv1.htm]Christer Landberg V1 review[/link]

So, for me, the GWS planes are for experimentation, only. If they work, I'll either publish an article on how to do the mods, or modify a bunch of wings to sell with the kits. I'll likely sell off the two stock ones after I've compared them, and then keep the other two for my wife and son to fly, if they want. I've grown too accustomed to 70ΒΊ climbs to 300' at 60 MPH.



I got a brief test flight in with the modified P-51 yesterday, in a bit of a wind. If seemed very slow (even though it had the "hot-rod" motor in it), like rubber-powered speeds. It also showed signs of too much down-thrust (ballooned when I throttled back), so I landed it right away to investigate.

I found that the rear wing mount had moved, putting the wing at too high an incidence. It is fixed, but I have not flown it again yet, and today is gusty, and changeable.

I'm balancing them about 1/4 in in front of the panel line at the thickest point of the wing, which, I think, is at the rear of the reccommended range. I want to "stack the odds" to get them to snap, and see which one is better at resisting snap-rolls. I have a friend lined up to "dogfight" them with me, to test for high-speed stall. Just because you're doing testing doesn't mean you can't have fun!

I'm running a 9 x 6 APC slow -flyer prop, which seems to be what most guys run on the stock motors.


Ron
Old 04-19-2004, 02:37 PM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Ron, great updates! Agreed on the philosophy of the goodness of GWS planes. I love 'em, but they're more "hamburgers & fries" compared to the "filet mignon" performance & looks I've seen in your planes. (I saw the V1 carnage at NEAT, and even the wreckage looked great![:@]) When you're ready to release more specific info, be sure to let us know what type cells you're testing with.
Old 04-19-2004, 03:45 PM
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Ron Daniels
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Cells wise, I have 2 of the stock 8 cell 720 ?? NiMH packs that I am using for all testing. I am not testing cell combinations - just too many variables, at that point.

I know that the LiPoly packs are much better, but I don't need that much duration to test what I want to test, and the extra weight actually helps my cause.

The V1 died an honorable death. Its receiver got swamped while fling at 15' across the flight line with the Sea Fury on its tail. It nosed down and...... Keith, who was flying the Sea Fury, immediately claimed a kill, and I complained that it "wasn't supposed to be a live fire exercise!".

Considering that when I built it, I expected it to be a very tricky to fly terror, I was quite happy that the only accident it had in its 20+ flights was due to a radio (OK pilot flying too close to 8 other guys with transmitters) problem. It is actually not a bad little sport plane.

The V1 was not heavily damaged at NEAT, other than the wing. I'll build another wing for it this week (20 minutes), as well as building a second one, so the next time I plant one, I'll just pull out my other one and keep flying.

That way, if I crash on Friday, someone who can't make it until Saturday can still see the V1 getting chased.


Ken, one of the fellows chasing it mistook the Sea Fury for his Tempest Mk II during the V1 chase flight, and was "flying" the Sea Fury while his Tempest flew itself into the ground. His plane was much more heavily damaged. Not much was left.

I'd like to rig up a 4th channel to release a big puff of flour when a fighter gets behind it and pretends to shoot. One day, I'll get around to it.




Ron Daniels
Old 04-19-2004, 06:09 PM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Thanks for the stats Ron!

Looking forward to more updates / flight reports!

I hope u can get that Mustang screaming on some LiPo's soon

Nathan.
Old 04-20-2004, 10:10 PM
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

dont forget about those cheapo brushless motors.......
Old 05-11-2004, 04:24 PM
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Ron Daniels
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Default RE: GWS Fighters Modified for Easier Flying

Well,

The fates finally allowed a day where I had time, and the weather was ideal, so.....

I flew each of the two Mustangs for two full flights today.

I performed loops, rolls, deliberate stalls, inverted flight, and steep, high elevator (3/4 +) turns with each.

The c/g was set right at the front of the top hatch, on both, bringing the modified one up to about 1 1/2 ounces heavier than the stock one.

What I found was....

The 10 X 4.7 that I had accidently installed on the modified one was the reason it was slower, and seemed to stop every time I throttled back. I put the correct 9 x 7 on and re-tested.

The green plane, which has a cheap, rewound 300 brushed motor in it was significantly faster than the stock one, though flight time did not seem to suffer.

Both planes could loop from level flight, though the modified one did a larger loop. When deliberately pulled into full elevator loops at top speed, the modified one went around straight, and the stock one cork-screwed.

Both rolled at similar rates (about 1 roll per 1 1/2 seconds).

When stalled deliberately by slowing and slowing while applying increasing elevator, the stock one always fell off to the left, though it did not snap into a spin (good thing, I did not install a moving rudder!). The modified one would slowly wag to one side then the other, alternating, with the nose very high. It did not stall out and fall off.

Both planes were solid inverted, with moderate down-elevator required. Neither tried to snap out. This was a concern of mine, for the modified wing.

In the steep turns, I could get to full elevator on the modified one, but the stock one started to fall off after about 3/4 elevator. Both were turning very sharply at the time.

Although I did not find the stock Mustang to be "nasty", I think that the modifications are still worth while.

They are quick, easy and cheap. The do not destroy the inverted flight of the airplane. They allow the airplane to be slowed to a near-stop on landing, without fear of snapping, and they allow you to pull elevator at speed without worrying that it might snap out and.....

The "uprated" brushed motor costs about the same as a stock motor, but makes the Mustang fly with increased authority, without a noticeable difference in duration.

Set up this way, I think that this type of airplane would be a good stepping stone for someone moving towards a high performance fighter plane.

The cheapo brushless have been sent back to the supplier for now. I will test them later in the summer, when I have sold-off my test fighters (the boss says to watch the R/C spending...).

I still have to fly the Mustangs head to head, and then test the 109's.


Ron Daniels

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