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WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

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WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

Old 11-18-2008, 01:14 PM
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RACER7696
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Default WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

Hi guys, What prop are you guys using after yopu break the stock one belly landing this plane . I was thinking a 9-6 or a 10 5 apc electric prop.
Old 11-18-2008, 03:45 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

I ran a 10x6 and 10x7 with no problems. I also ran a 11x6, in which it pulled the motor "slightly apart" from the spinning part and the shaft. I had to remove the motor and press it back together.
I did a current and wattage check on each prop, and believe it or not, the original prop seems to work the best. There was not a noticeable difference running the 10x6 or 11x6 in terms of speed (both APC and masterscrew). If you decide to change the prop, you need to ream out the center for the original prop has a slightly larger diameter.

JC
Old 11-19-2008, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

[sm=drowning.gif] JC, thanks for your F-4U prop information. You are the first person to answer the questions I have been asking for some time now. I love the flying characteristics of the stock Corsair without wheels. Yesterday I experienced my first and probably last ROG (roll of grass) take off attempt swinging a 12X3.8 APC prop.

Okay, ROG is out. Tried my tried and true hand launch system that has never failed me. A wheel must have caught my sleeve or something. Experienced my very first fighter crash on take off and the terrible sound of an ESC about to burn up.

To calm my nerves I tried to simply hand launch the ship and glide it in for a landing like I always do to determine initial control trim, and sometimes to check trim and/or demonstrate my very effective (usually) left hand launch technique. The extra drag, etc., degraded the gliding ability so much that the flight was not only very short but I was also "awarded" with a flip over landing and bent landing gear. NO MORE OF THIS NONSENSE! I finally finished flying the Corsair using the stock prop and NO WHEELS! Normally I enjoy flying until the battery tells me to land. The weather was so cloudy and dreary, and dark enough that I couldn't feel confident in seeing the plane so I ended up landing after only about five minutes.

I just couldn't bring myself to attempt another hand launch with the 12 inch club, even without wheels. Yes, it might have been fun to see that baby accelerate straight up as it has the capability to do with that prop but I was in no mood to experiment with it. So, did I make a good decision to quit messing with that big prop?

Was your motor problem associated with over-revving, over-loading, or something else? I have some 11X6 APC Slo Flyer props on order that I think should make slower maneuvering possible compliments of your report. Do you have an opinion about my 12X3.8 Slo Flyer props? Sure would be neat to be able fly low slow maneuvers in small flying spaces. At the moment only my modified Accipiter Badius motor powered gliders with me at the controls are capable of warbird maneuver flying in small spaces.

Thanks again.

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Old 11-19-2008, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

The masterscrew 11x6 is noticeably heavier than the 10x6 or the stock prop. The original motor on the Corsair is a decent motor, but if you look at most common outrunners, the thrust of the prop "pulls" the spinning part of the motor to the base - the base is facing the prop - a typical mount. The Corsair has the mount on the front of the fuse and the base is attached to the fuse. The spinning part of the stock motor is facing the prop and the thrust actually pulls it from the base, not push.

I believe this is what cause the motor to pull apart - the larger prop was heavier and the thrust pulled it loose.

Even if the larger prop produced more thrust, it was not noticeable in normal flying or dogfighting against my friend Dan. We both can tell when a modified plane has more performance. Oddly enough, the 10x6 pulled less current than the stock prop- moslty due to the blades not being as wide. Base on what I have played around with, the stock two-blade prop is your best bet for the motor.

I have updated the motor to a Turnigy 35-48 11100kv. I run the sotck prop with spacers. I do see a little more top end, but nothing to get excited about. all in all, I think Parkzone has this plane dialed in as it is.
For those who must have big & powerful motors ( me? ), remember, quick turns may cause your wings to snap in flight so be aware.

JC
Old 11-20-2008, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

[8D] RACER, great thread. Thanks to it's inspiration memory cells finally began firing and I remembered an excellent article in MA that I enjoyed years ago. JC's research does a nice job of confirming what I think are some fairly accurate numbers that can get us safely in the right desired propeller ballpark.

To calculate prop loads that are similar to the stock prop load so as to not overload the motor, draw too much current and maybe burn something up, here is a simple formula that I like so much that I will file a copy of this post in case I need to refer to it in the future.

Prop pitch and blade area are assumed to be fairly linear in estimating load. The important number to remember is that the load of given propellers is proportional to the diameters of the props to the 4th power.

For example, the 9.5-inch diameter X 7.5-pitch stock prop number to the fourth power is 8145. An 11-inch prop diameter to the fourth power is 14641. Divide 8145 by 14641 and we now have the difference in load if the two props had identical blade area and pitch. To find a pitch value that would provide an equal load with the two different props, multiply the decimal percentage (.56) by the pitch of the stock prop (.56 X 7.5 = 4.17). So theoretically, something between an 11X4 and an 11X5 should be nicely compatible with the Corsair motor.

From what I have learned, a brushless motor has a significantly greater capability than conventional motors, but we don't want to push our luck too much. To be on the safe side when flying in hot weather an 11X4 might be a nice choice especially when using a light battery and no landing gear. Personally I will use the 11X5 APC especially if my special 11.5-inch prop won't do the job I need.

Since I like the idea of being able to pull straight up without losing much speed I have cut down a 12X3.8 APC to 11.5-inches and hope to be able to perform all of the aerobatics possible with the stock prop but in a much smaller space. The reality is I mainly like to soar at high altitude and throw in only a few maneuvers just for fun. Most of my flying is at low throttle settings so I think I can get away with using a prop that is only a little "too big."

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Old 11-21-2008, 09:10 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

Good Post mad web tv scientist
I am watching this post because I am also very interested.

I could be wrong but prop stiffness is also a major factor. The stock prop is as flexable as a piece of paper.
At 7000rpm I bet this prop really flattens out. Decreasing the pitch . " Less effective "
I use only APC props. They are a much better prop.
Just a guess the stock prop at 7 1/2 " pitch at 8000rpm may have only a 3 or 4 " pitch the same APC could have 6 or 7" pitch

Just an input. Am I on the right track ??

Fred..
Old 11-21-2008, 06:20 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

Fred, thank you for your kind post. I really like the "flexible SLO FLYER APC" props because of their ability to absorb belly landing forces. My SLO FLYER APC props seem even more flexible than the stock prop. I wouldn't want stiff props on my fighters not only because of possible damage from landings but possible motor damage as well. I also balance my props very carefully to help prevent possible motor damage. I suspect that some of those who have encountered motor damage using heavier props were suffering from an out of balance situation that may have precipitated the problem.

When I have test run the F4U in my hands to check prop tips tracking there doesn't seem to be a noticeable change in pitch regardless of motor speed. In the past certain flexible props have indeed been a confounding factor in calculating horse power, but I really don't think there is a problem in our particular application.

I love APC props!

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Old 11-21-2008, 06:34 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

The three blade prop with a 2500 mah 3s has proven to me to be the most effecient. This combination also works very well on the PZ Trojan T28.
Old 11-22-2008, 12:22 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

I have flown one with the apc 11x7 works great goes vertical......NICE R/C FLYR
Old 11-22-2008, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

mad scientist,

I balance every prop before any installation. The great planes prop balancer is just about the best since it uses magnets and drastically reduces friction during the balancing process.
So, my 11x6 masterscrew was [perfectly balanced. This by no means that the 11x6 did or did not cause the motor to slightly pull apart. Who knows, it just so happened that that was
the prop that was on when it happened. Overall, I would say go with the 10x7 or 10x8 on the Corsair if an aftermarket prop is desired.

JC
Old 11-23-2008, 12:33 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

does it matter if a propeller is for a glow engine or do i have to stick with something specifically for electrics...?
Old 11-23-2008, 02:10 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

flip, although heavy glo engine props will work I highly recommend the flexible APC electric props.

JC, way to go. I use the exact same balancing system that you do. I discovered a "trick" today that helps minimize adding weight and/or removing prop material that might be useful for other F-4U prop balancing perfectionists.

Before completely reaming an APC prop check the balance and use a small sharp blade to take material from inside the hole a little at a time on the heaver side of the prop during the reaming process. I have found that this procedure is especially useful for side to side balance when the prop is in the vertical position. I don't stop working on a prop until it will stay put in any position all 360 degrees around, usually.

How did you fix your motor after running that heavy 11 inch prop? I notice a small amount of end play on mine but assume
this is probably normal, I hope.

My order of new props hasn't arrived yet. Today's flights were performed with a 12X3.8 cut down to 11.5 inches. Good, slow vertical rolling performance that I was looking for was possible. The Corsair flew maneuvers that were surely slower than true scale speed in the almost calm weather. In windy weather I will have to use more pitch for more speed but I think I might be on to something for calm weather flying fun. I need a lot of practice. Today's flying really looked sloppy, but then I was trying to show off for a now solid new modeler flying buddy, talking instead of concentrating. etc..

R/CFLYR, I broke my dandy 11X7 when I crashed my Spitfire the other day. It was the strangest thing I have ever experienced with propellers. I had just put up two (2) flights with the stock 10X8 prop with no problems at all. That 11X7 powered the Spit beautifully up to cruising altitude with what seemed like a lot less throttle than I normally use with the stock prop. Because the load on the motor is significantly higher than usual I only used full throttle on brief vertical maneuvers. Where I ran into my fatal problem was during landing by trying to extend the glide beyond this system's capability. What I thought were thermals causing me to stall at altitude during dead stick gliding periods turned out to be a badly trimmed ship that got away from me in the dead stick landing approach - very embarrassing! Anyway, please keep us posted on that 11X7 prop performance. I suspect it will continue performing well for you even though I am very cautious with it myself. If my numbers are right, it is a 40% greater load than stock.

KEEP 'EM FLYING!

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Old 11-23-2008, 02:48 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

hi, thanks for the reply... i have a Power 10 and i'm currently using the stock 2 blade propeller... for the type of flying that i do, which is mostly scale flying, i'm pretty happy with the performance to battery life ratio of the stock propeller... the thing is, i want something that is longer for looks... i'm thinking of going with an 11x6 inch Mater Airscrew for electrics, but exactly what changes are going on going from a short-high pitched propeller to a long-low pitch propeller...? i understand the calculations and conversion that you posted at the top, but doesn't it mean that the 11x6 will go slower than the 9.5x7.5 at a given RPM...? although the 11x6 will have much greater torque...?

also, i understand that the stock 3-blade prop is not very efficient, but i'm wondering if i will see a great reduction in battery life going from the stock 9.5x7.5 to an 11x6 prop...?
Old 11-23-2008, 12:22 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

Mad,

I pressed the motor back together with a vice. For prop balancing, I use an exacto knife to shave off small amounts on the heavy side of the prop.
Once I'm dialed in, I then move to 400 & 600 grit sandpaper to keep the edges smooth and finer detail. Very small amounts over and over - the ususal.

Flipteg,

Measure your current )
You are "flying in the dark" until you get a wattmeter. That is the one key item that will help you dial in your planes. A prop tach will help, but the wattmeter will do more than 90% of the chores.
For example, when I was testing the various props I used a wattmeter. I did a baseline test with the original prop and went on the engineering thesis that more current typically means more thrust (within a linear range).
A 10x6 pulled less current than the original (12 amps), the original pulled about 18 to 20 amps, and the 11x6 pulled about 32-36 amps. In flight, when I noticed the 11x6
did not give me any significant performance gain, I dropped back to the original. Less current means longer flights. Wattmeter costs vary from $39 to $60, but very useful
in protecting your batteries, motors, ESCs, and dialing in your plane.

The motor in the Corsair is a low end version of the E-flight park 480 in my opinion. It has a plastic base instead of a metal one. Although I have already swapped out my motor, if one
crashes their plane, I would suggest going with a Turnigy 35-48, 35-42, or 35 - 36 in the 900 to 1100kv range. It is a much better motor and 1/2 the price to the original and much less than
the Power 10 or 15 series. They are typically in the $22 to $33 range. Found at hobbycity

Motor and prop quick primer (primer, prim pronounced like Tim or Jim )
1) Lower kv motors spin slower for a given voltage input. higher kv motors spin faster for a given voltage input
2) The F-27 Stryker and EDF jef fan motors use a smaller prop, so a higher kv is needed to move air faster
3) Lower kv motors are for thrust as compared to the same motor in a higher kv
4) Higher kv motors provide more speed at the cost of thrust.

Example: So, you have car trouble and you go to a local garage in the summer. In the corner is a big fan in an aluminum case, about 3 or 4 feet tall. It moves air slowly but moves a large amount of air.
While waiting to get your car fixed, you notice this ***** in the waiting room, complaining why it is taking so long to get her car fixed. Whaaa, whaaa, whaaa! Out of her purse, she pulls
out a personal fan and points it at her ugly-ass face. It spins fairly fast but only moves a small amount of air. No thrust at all (except that you don't like her and want to thrust your fist in her face

Ok, odd story but it gets the point across. With props, there is a balance of the SPEED you move the air (rpm) and the AMOUNT of air you more (diameter and pitch)
For the Corasir a given motor, a bigger prop will spin slower, reducing speed, but will provide more thrust for those vertical climbs. A smaller prop will spin faster, which increases speed, at
the cost of thrust. The key rule, is there is a "sweet spot" on all planes for a given motor or prop. That is why I did not see a big difference in with my Corsair in the air. BUT, I
did see a big difference in current draw!!! Remember, the balance of prop speed versus prop thrust and you are home free.

Prop calculations will get you in the ballpark of what you want, but measuring current and actually flying each prop is the only way to dial in your plane.

Hope this helps,

JC

JC
Old 11-23-2008, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

hi, did you noticed a difference in flight performance between the 10x6 and the stock 9.5x75...? according to your math, the load on the motor should be about the same for each prop, but reality shows that the 10x6 draws less amps... does this mean the 10x6 is more efficient than the stock (which means both perform about the same) or the stock has noticeable performance gains over the 10x6...?
Old 11-24-2008, 03:03 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

I did not perceive a noticeable difference, albeit it was just a quick flight test. I probably could be more thorough in the flights - maybe this holiday weekend.
My hunch is the 10x6 is not more efficient but provides less thrust. The stock prop is much wider and aids in the thrust line. But that is a good point - if the perceived
flight perfromace is about he same, go with the 10x6 since it pulls less current and would provide longer flight times. I'll update you all and let you know.

JC
Old 11-28-2008, 12:36 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

I was flying my corsair yesterday on a perfect day, and as it was just simply flying straight, the prop just broke apart, the motor sounded really loud, the canopy flew off, and I hurried and cut the motor and landed it safely, but the motor had totally broke off from the motor mount. the motor is ok, just the plastic is screws into was broke off from the mount. Chipped up my cowl, cut a slice in my canopy. I could not believe this. has anyone else had this happen of heard of this happening with the 3 blade prop? It has not been wrecked with that prop on it, so I dont know why this would have happened. I am going back to the 2 blade prop. seems much sturdier.
Old 11-28-2008, 12:59 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

If your prop broke, that would certainly put a strain on the motor mount due to the imbalance. From what I has seen, I would avoid the 3-blade prop all together. I can't verify the mfg issues, but every one I have tried seems to be slightly out of balance; same goes for my friend's Corsair and his 3-blade props.

JC

Old 12-08-2008, 02:19 AM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

Finally came up with a Corsair prop that provides an interesting and useful balance of performance characteristics. The load of this new prop on the stock motor is less than 10% greater than the stock prop and yet there is sufficient thrust to perform two plus victory rolls straight up after pulling up 90 degrees from straight and level maximum speed flight.

Interestingly, I came up with a totally different prop for the PZ Spitfire that allows it to provide virtually identical performance with that of the F4U. Both planes are set up with 12 degrees plus/minus aileron deflection angles and now have the thrust needed to easily perform the maneuvers I need if I can just do my part. The next url reports some of the fun details.
Parkzone Supermarine Spitfire Mk11B post # 1060
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_49...tm.htm#8220460

So far my goal of flying slower maneuvers using larger diameter lower pitch props has alluded me. Instead, I have ended up with what seems to be more efficient propulsion for aerobatics purposes. The following is a description of what may end up being my optimum Corsair aerobatics prop.

Starting with a 12X3.8 APC SLO FLYER composite propeller, an eleven inch diameter prop blade is used as a reference to cut down the width of the twelve inch prop blades from the leading edges so that it ends up with the same width as the eleven inch prop. Coarse sand paper pinned around a block of wood and a knife for scraping are used on the top of the blades to shape the prop airfoil so that it is similar to an unmodified APC airfoil. The final shape of the prop ends up looking very much like an unmodified APC prop except it now only has an 11.4 inch diameter, is now only as wide as an eleven inch prop, and is as quiet as a stock F4U prop.

A prop reamer is a handy tool to get the drive shaft hole just right. Careful sanding on the back of the prop is usually needed to get the prop blade tips to track correctly for optimum performance. While turning the prop by hand and observing the blade tips in relation to a distant spot it is very practical get the prop to track right with trial and error sanding on the back side of the prop hub. I picked up some hardware store washers that have the same outside diameter as the prop spinner to mount the prop.

Wider blade big props can also work and can produce a very noticeable buzzing sound at full power. A swishing sound can be heard at lower power levels. I'm not sure about the safety margin of the extra loads on the stock motor and will have to wait for other intrepid Corsair pilot's recommendations who have ventured further into the unknown than I dare to go before I can recommend their serious use.

HAVE FUN!

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Old 04-22-2009, 08:18 PM
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Default RE: WHAT APC PROP IS BEST FOR PKZ F4U CORSAIR

flipteg, just happened to realize that I failed to share information about what has turned out to be the ultimate Corsair prop for my purposes on this thread. After learning how to read motor current I realized that the ACP 12X3.8 only pulls a maximum 25 amps with my preferred batteries. That is no problem with our Corsair 30 amp ESCs. The neat thing about the big prop is that all vertical maneuvers that I will ever want to do are very practical while flying with landing gear.

I had already reduced the amount of down thrust from stock but noticed today in the turbulent wind conditions that the ship was still wondering around a lot in vertical maneuvers. The thing that really demonstrated that I need even less down thrust was when I deliberately tried to torque roll the plane at a safe altitude to see if it could be done. I tried several times and unlike my WWI planes that just dare me to throttle up a little too fast so they can torque roll over and splatter themselves all over the place, my F4U stubbornly refused to react at all to all my attempts to torque roll it. So, before I fly it again I will reduce the down thrust even more and will keep on adjusting it until it is either possible to notice a reaction to rapid throttle up near stall speed or I reach zero down thrust, whichever comes first.

Hope you are still enjoying your Corsair!

ORIGINAL: flipteg

hi, thanks for the reply... i have a Power 10 and i'm currently using the stock 2 blade propeller... for the type of flying that i do, which is mostly scale flying, i'm pretty happy with the performance to battery life ratio of the stock propeller... the thing is, i want something that is longer for looks... i'm thinking of going with an 11x6 inch Mater Airscrew for electrics, but exactly what changes are going on going from a short-high pitched propeller to a long-low pitch propeller...? i understand the calculations and conversion that you posted at the top, but doesn't it mean that the 11x6 will go slower than the 9.5x7.5 at a given RPM...? although the 11x6 will have much greater torque...?

also, i understand that the stock 3-blade prop is not very efficient, but i'm wondering if i will see a great reduction in battery life going from the stock 9.5x7.5 to an 11x6 prop...?

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