T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

I am still trying to learn how to fly my new T-Hawk. Out of 4-5 flights, my longest is still only about 40 seconds and they all end the same way - the plane swoops out of the sky right into the ground. Even if the plane gets to a high altitude, it heads back to the ground.

I have had successful portions of 10-20 seconds where the plane does respond to the radio commands.

Granted I am a newbie and may be doing something very wrong. When the plane begins to swoop down, I pull the radio (single) stick down with no real luck or response. One other weird thing is that after hand launching, as the plane is climbing, the motor cuts out for about 1-2 seconds and runds for 20-30 seconds, then out again. Not sure why, and I can not guess this helps a rookie like me.

Please help before I give this hobby up for something easier.


Mike

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

I don't have a T-Hawk, but this seems like perhaps a general problem. The T-Hawk uses standard equipment.

Have you checked all controls and motor while the plane is on the ground for an extended run?
If the motor shuts down and them comes back up....does it do it on the ground as well?
Check all of your connections thoroughly...from battery to motor to servos.
I would definately run a battery on the ground. Park the plane so it wont go anywhere and the prop is clear.
Now "fly" it on the ground. You should do control surface checks and radio checks anytime before flying.
Does the motor cut out? Do all the surfaces respond to your commands properly?
Now step back a 100' or so. Have someone tell you what the plane is doing while you go through your checks again.

Make sure you have fresh batteries/pack in your transmitter. If someone else has a transmitter on the same channel, have THEM try to control your plane.

But perhaps more important than the above......find someone that actually flies R/C alot to help you get up in the air. Preferrably an instructor from the local club. They will be able to help get your plane trimmed and go over your Center of Gravity. You should the following series of articles: http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?id=17
in the meantime.

Without seeing you fly...multiple things could be happening here....

FIRST. Make sure your motor situation is cleared. Track down what is causing it to cut out. Don't try to fly again until you can be confident it won't cut out on you in the air.

SECOND. Perhaps your newness is causing to to try to do too much with the sticks. Maybe you are stalling the plane by trying to pull up without sufficient airspeed. Again...without seeing you fly, can't tell what may be happening.

Hope this helps. But it sounds like you need someone that can physically check your plane and it's controls. Then work on what it does in the air.

Good luck!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

Welcome to the world of RC flying.

Did you buy the T-Hawk ready to fly or an ARF where you added your own components? If you put in your own stuff, tell us what you are using.

If you bought it RTF, get in touch with the mfg immediately, toytronics, www.toytx.com , as you have an electronics problem. Their site has a support and FAQ link. Check this out.

All the tips given above by RC Sumo are very good. I encourage you to follow them. The motor should NEVER cut out then come back on. This is an indication of a serious problem in a connector, your receiver set-up or your transmitter.

Let me add these thoughts:

Wiggle wires. After you have done what PC Sumo suggests, if you don't see any problems, then do it again, but wiggle wires.

Put the plane on a stable surface and secure it with the electronics exposed. You might want to remove the prop for this test as you are going to be working close to the plane.

Set the throttle to zero, turn on the transmitter, then plug in the plane's power and turn on the switch. After a second there should be no servo twitching or movement and the motor should not run unless you move the throttle up from zero. These are mandatory. If you don't pass this, something is very bad.

Move your sticks slowly left, right - is the rudder smooth?
Move your stick forward and back. Elevator good?

All surfaces moving in the right direction?

Slide the throttle up slowly. Does it come on smoothly? Does the motor speed move up smoothly with the throttle? Go all the way up, then all the way down. You are looking for dead spots in the throttle control.

If it comes up OK, wiggle wires in the plane. Anything moving on the surfaces? Motor? They should not. If they do you have a bad wire, connector or component. [X(]

Again, if this is an RTF T-hawk an it does not pass all tests with flying colors, do not pass go, do not collect $200 and do not attempt to fly. Get in touch with the MFG ASAP. [>:]

They make a good product but a bad package can get out now and then. Their support is very good. They will help you.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

Assuming you find and fix the problem, here are some early flight procedures I suggest to new parkflyer pilots.


TEST FLIGHT PROCEDURES FOR PARKFLYERS
by Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums

PURPOSE - Here are some quick tips and a "check sheet" for preparing your
parkflyer for flight. If you have an instructor or coach, follow their
recommendations. This list is primarily for someone learning on their own who
would like some tips, guides and check lists to help them with their early
test flights. Skip a step and you open yourself to problems.

If you are REALLY new to RC flying, before you put your plane up you may wish
to read this series of articles aimed at new flyers of all types.

[link=http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=17]Beginners Bootcamp[/link]

Too many people think flying an RC plane is like driving an RC car. ITS NOT!
Read the column, see why, and understand how this is going to be so much
better than cars.


BALANCE THE PLANE - Read the manual to see if you need to balance the plane.
Be sure to balance the plane to the suggested CG point. If you don't know how
to balance a plane, this is the time to ask. Don't try to fly it until you do.

An improperly balanced plane is not likely to fly well and is very likely to
crash! Even SOME Ready to Fly planes have to be balanced, so check the manual
for the manufacturers suggestions. In general it is better to be a "little"
nose heavy rather than tail heavy. A nose heavy plane is more stable so you
have a better chance of a smooth first flight session.

WIND - Read the recommendations in the manual. Some planes must only be flown
in dead calm or indoors.

For new pilots, dead calm to 3 MPH is perfect. No more than 5 MPH for your
first test flights and early/training flights or you will be fighting the
wind, not flying the plane. (guess how I know)


AT THE FIELD

1) Make sure no one is on your channel BEFORE you turn on your radio. If there
is another flyer anywhere in sight, go and talk to them BEFORE you turn on
your radio.

If someone is flying on your channel and you turn on your radio, they will
crash! Check first! At our field if you cause someone to crash, you have to
buy them a new plane. That can cost thousands. Check first!

2) Do a range check before the first launch of the day - If you don't know how
to do a range check, ASK!

3) Make sure that battery is fully charged just before the launch. Not 3 days
ago. Not last week. Last night or today!

4) Make sure all your surfaces are properly aligned and move properly before
you launch. Check the instructions.

Make sure right rudder goes right and up elevator goes up, etc. Also make sure
your wing is straight!

5) CHECK THE TRIMS! Check the trim slides on the side and below the stick(s).
They should be in the center. Be sure you have not bumped one out of position.
A bumped trim can cause the plane to crash. (guess how I know). I do this a
lot throughout the day, so check just before EVERY launch.

6) Always launch and land into the wind - ALWAYS!

7) For hand launches - good firm LEVEL throw - NOT UP! Never throw the plane
upward on a test flight as it will most likely stall, go nose down and crash.
After a few launches you will know how THIS plane flies.

TEST FLIGHTS

The following is a suggested test flight process for flyers learning on their
own, primarily in an open field area. If you are at a highly disciplined
runway based site, they may not allow you to follow this procedure. In this
case, you probably have an instructor, follow their guidance. If you are alone
in a field, follow this process.


LAUNCH - FLY STRAIGHT - LAND - Don't go for a real flight, this is a test to
see if it goes straight and level. I like to fly straight out and then land
for the fist few tries. I send it out 100-300 feet. This way I get a feel of
how the plane will launch and how it will land.

Does it glide in nicely?

Do I need power on as I land?

Launching and landing are the two most important things you have to do, so
make sure you know how the plane behaves before you attempt anything more. You
will do some walking but that is better than gathering up pieces or watching
your plane fly off into the distance.

On these test flights, try to use the controls as little as possible. If it is
balanced correctly, and your surfaces are trimmed it should fly straight and
true. If you have to work the sticks to keep it going straight and level, you
may have some trim adjustments to do, or your plane is not well balanced. Make
those adjustments now. If it flies with the nose sticking up, you are too tail
heavy. If the wind is blowing it around a lot, put it away for a calmer day.

The first time I bring a plane to the field I might do 1-5 test flights as
straight out launches and landings. After each I adjust and do it again. Only
when I am happy that the plane goes straight and flat will I take to the
skies. I may add or remove some balance weight if the plane needs balance
improvement.

I like to adjust my planes at the surfaces so that my normal flight trim
settings on my radio are normally neutral trims. This way I don't have to
worry about setting trims before I fly. It takes time, but it saves problems
later.

Many kits tell you to set your control throws for lower amounts for early
flights. Follow this recommendation. Too much surface movement on an
unfamiliar plane can cause you to over control it. You can always "crank it
up" later.

Once I have done all these things, which might take 10 minutes or it may take
an hour, then and only then would I go for altitude and go around the field.
After these few test flights I also get a feel for how much stick movement
will give me how much plane movement. New flyers tend to move the sticks too much. Small gentle motions is all it normally takes.

I get to know the plane is right before I send it up. Finding I have a problem
when I am 200 feet up and climbing and can't control a turn is not a good thing because now I have to get it down and land it.

I hope this is helpful. Clear Skies and Safe Flying!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

I am a beginner and also have a T-Hawk. I agree with all the preflight and general checks, but I have had servo gear problems with my T-Hawk. On my very first flight, I damaged the wing with a hard landing ( I didn't have sense enough to remove the landing gear for rough grass). On the second flight the wing folded and it crashed. I replaced the wing and did a flight check before my 3rd flight. I discovered the elevator and rudder was not working. I called the mfg's number and sent the fuselage in for repair. They promptly fixed and returned it (cost me $15 for repairs, they replaced both servo gears). I assembled it and did a preflight check. Everything worked fine. I hand launched it, but it didn't climb! I had to get out of the throttle and ended up hitting some small trees, but no significant damage. I did another preflight check and discovered the elevator was not working and the servo sounded like it has stripped a gear again.[:o]
My first flight with the T-Hawk was great! It was very responsive, climbed and flew better than the Firebird and Aerobird that I own. In my opinion. if I can get past the servo gear problems, it will be a great aircraft.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

I have seen this before with the T-Hawks stripping gears. This is one area that is a plus for the Aerobirds...their inferior pull strings don't transmit the force of a crash to the servos. But that is the only plus in my mind, besides simplicity, to this system. That said...I am going to be replacing my fishing line with wires on my Aerobird to improve response.

I have to say, of course your T-Hawk is more responsive than a Firebird; the Firebird is a 2 channel plane that has no elevator control. I don't think you should villify the 2 channel plane because your 3 channel is more responsive.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

RC Sumo - all good points!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

RC Sumo - You are right, I shouldn't compare the T-Hawk to a 2 channel Firebird, but I do think it should be comparable to an aerobird. I just finished a hunting expedition for my aerobird that got away from me..( I got lucky and found it), but in my very limited flight experience and in my humble opinion the T-Hawk is easier to fly. I'm not implying that the Aerobird is bad, I just think the T-Hawk flies better. I have a few acres to fly, but it is in a valley and when I get some altitude the wind takes over and I haven't the skill to get it back.
I'm still learning the hard way, but am considering stamp collecting for a hobby.

Dealing with Wind
 

Everyone has personal preferences. Each of us has a better feeling for one plane or another. You have two and you like one better. That is to be expected. As you said that doen't make one good and one bad, just different.

As to the wind thing, let's see if we can help you with that.

Sounds like when you get above a certain altitude you run into wind that you don't feel on the ground. Is that correct?

That is not unusual at all. Our flying field is surrounded by woods. There have been days when I would stand on one side of the field and swear that was very little wind. If I walk across the field, the wind is actually quite active. The trees are blocking it, but what actually happens is that they divert it up so that the air stream is higher and faster. Buildings and houses do the same thing.

If you know this happens, you can plan for it. Since you ALWAYS launch into the wind, ALWAYS, you want the wind to be in your face when you are flying. Likewise if you can't feel it but know it is up high, fly from the side of the field that the wind is blowing toward. This way you are always working to keep the plane in front of you and up wind over the open field.

If you feel the wind starting to get the better of you, you push the stick forward enough to start to dive the plane INTO the wind. This will help you pick up speed and make progress against the wind. Don't go too steep. You are not trying to hit the ground, just take a somewhat downward angle. Between the motor and the dive you can make progress against a pretty strong wind. This is the advantage of the three channel planes over the two channel planes, they can dive against the wind.

Too often new flyers just push the throttle forward to gain speed against the wind, and fly into the wind. Under these circumstances, the plane will tend to climb and the wind will push it back. You feel you are losing the plane against the wind. You are right! What do you do?

Push that nose down. Even against a 15 MPH wind you can make progress with an Aerobird or a T-hawk. Of course you shouldn't be flying in wind this high, but if you get caught, this is how you handle it. I have flown in 20 mph winds with my Aerobird. Not a good idea, but I was able to fly into the wind and keep the plane over the field.

You can actually fly the plane in for a landing this way since you ALWAYS land into the wind, ALWAYS!

I hope this helps!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

dont give up yet Woody! I mean ...sure you could throw your stamps around the house as "free flight indoor flyers" but I think it might get old after awhile.
aeajr is very helpful with helping others with their plane problems. He'll usually have a few great tips to help....such as above.

As far as the T-Hawk/Aerobird thing......I had a great flying weekend so I think I was getting a little defensive of my little orange buddy. The T-hawk is a great plane, superior in many regards to the Aerobird out of the box. With some mild modding I will be able to do just about any manuever a standard 3 ch. plane can do...

in the end.....it's all about fun, no matter what you throw in the air.....except maybe stamps....then it might be about medication..:)

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

OK, since RC Sumo brought up mods, take a look at the mod that this guy did to the tail on the Aerobird Xtreme. I would bet that you could do the same mod on the tail of the challenger.

This link takes you to a video, so if you are on diak-up, it is going to take a long time to load, but it is worth it.

[link=http://www.hobbyzone.com/albums/album03/ABX_pro_tail_just_a_taste.wmv]Arobird Xtreme with pro-tail[/link]

This is just amazing!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

I saw that mod on rcplanecrashclub. I did it to one of my aerobirds! WHOA! very responsive. It works really well.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

OK Forevernight. You have my attention. You say you put a protail mod on your challenger? Were you able to roll it and fly inverted like the Xtreme in the video? If your piloting skills are not up to that, that is fine. I just want to understand if there is any reason why the challenger should not be able to perform like the Xtreme in the video.

Seems it should. The challenger has about a 30% lighter wing loading which should make it even more aerobatic with this tail.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

It was EXTREMely responsive. I was able to fly inverted easily. I didnt try a roll.it worked really well until
i folded a wing and spiraled from about 150ft. so the flight was only about 2 minutes long. I split the fuse. the wing was already weakened before the flight but, i thought it would be ok[:@] On rcplanecrashclub he shows you how to do the mod but, i found it way too complicated. I did it my own way it took about 10 minutes and looked and worked the same.
try it.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

Thanks. That is the versatility of the V tail that allows that mod to do that. Very cool.

Thanks!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

ok Forevernight.....how did YOU do the mod...because I have seen the RCPLANECRASHCLUB...oh whatever...lol..version on the ABX. That site is great. But if you did a simple easy version...I would love to do that. I have a brand new tail I want to try it on. I was going to just glue balsa extensions on it....but if you have a simple quick way to a protail....

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

I think that pro-tail approach is great and think that the Challenger should really perform with it. I am even taking it back one generation to the original aerobird.

I picked up some presentation foam board. This is the stuff that you use for school presentation projects. It is a little heavier than the original tail, maybe 25%, but I should be able to make 6 tails for $1. So I am going to try various configurations. If it makes a difference on an original aerobird, it should really impact a challenger.

This plane and the platform overall is so easy to modify and so forgiving if you mess up.

I have 9 other planes, but this is the one I experiment with the most. I love it!

RE: Dealing with Wind
 

Thanks AEAJR - You described perfectly, what happened to me when I got into the wind. Most of my limited flight experience was with a Firebird (2 channel)and in my frustrating flight, I must have forgotten that I had the capability to apply full throttle and still bring the nose down!
I was trying to get it back by turning into the wind and give it full throttle - Of course it would climb, wind would catch it and it would go farther away. I also was making a large circle, instead of flying straight(into the wind). Do you think this was due to my over-correcting? I get so flustered, I'm probably holding the stick over instead of giving it the gentle commands and waiting for it to respond. The only time I have seen an experienced pilot fly, was a month or so ago, when I journeyed far away to the closest hobby shop. This shop is in a small town, but the owner has some huge R/C gas aircraft. He sells the aerobird, but personally does not recommend them or any other electric. He is a pleasent man , who took me outside and flew the aerobird for me (even though he didn't like it). His recommendation was for me to get a 4 channel radio and all the necessitys to build a gas aircraft. I am not ready to spend that amount of money for something that I don't have the skills to fly. I was really impressed by the way he flew the stock ABC in a pretty strong wind, much stronger than I would try to fly in. If he wasn't so far away, I would be bugging him all the time.

RE: Dealing with Wind
 

The ability to fly in strong wind is a pilot talent more than a plane limitation. You have not developed the skills yet to fly in wind. You should be flying in under 5 MPH wind until you can reliably launch into the wind, climb to height, fly around, line up for a landing into the wind and land, reliably. Let's say 5 in a row minimum!

Now, fly in that 5 MPH wind, but hold youself to half throttle and make sure you can reliably put the plane whereever you want at half throttle. Launch at full throttle, climb to height then back to half and work it. If you have to go above half throttle to manage it, you are not ready for more wind yet.

Then you can start moving up the scale. You go out in 7 or 8 MPH and you work on keeping the plane in front of you at half throttle. You can always hit the power if you get in trouble.

In an 8-10 mph wind you should be able to make progress against the wind on a 6 cell battery at 3/4 throttle or a 7 cell at half throttle. At 8-10 mph wind, you should be able to hover the plane almost motionless in the wind at half throttle just by adjuting the pitch of the plane which will control how much you penetrate the wind. This is lots of fun. I have held position for minutes like this. It is a game I play to help me hone my skills.

Try these excercises. It is not how fast your plane is, it is how fast compared to the wind. By holding the throttle back you are making the plane more closely match the wind's speed so you can practice. If you get in trouble - hit full power, get back to a safe location and start again.

Finally, get in the habbit of timing your flights. How long can you fly at full throtle? 5 mintues, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? The motor cutting off should not be a surprise. You should know when it is going to happen. I carry a timer on my belt. I set it for a 1 minute margin of safety on normal days and 2 minutes on windy days.

Fly till the motor cuts, then glide it in. My standard landing is to glide in with the motor off. This way if I over run the battery and the motor cuts, I don't care. I normally land with the motor off anyway. Easy!

Now time your flights at half throttle. 10 Minutes? 12? My duration at half throttle on is about 14 mintues. If I am flying in wind I know I will be at full throttle more, so I time my flights accordingly. I may set my watch for 8-10 minutes since I rarely stay at full throttle. I don't want to be caught at a bad spot in a strong wind and have the motor cut out.

I hope these tips are helpful.

It is not the plane, it is the pilot that makes the difference! I have seen the Aerobird do some amazing tricks, fly in high winds and all kinds of stuff that those "big glow pilots" will tell you the plane can't do. The fact is that they are accostumed to flying a different kind of plane so, when the power or weight or 4 channel control isn't there, they get frustrated. "plane can't fly" "Unresponsive"

It is the pilot, not the plane that makes the difference.

Be the pilot!

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

Hey, aeajr, let me know how your tail turns out and works. I'm think of just extending my flaps straight out to the edge of the tail and not add the edges at the end since I drilled another hole down on the control horn to get enough throw to operate the aerial drop system I made for my original Aerobird.

-John

RE: Dealing with Wind
 

I doubt I will ever "be the pilot".. After my aerobird lost in the wind experience, I tried to repair the ABC. It took a very hard hit. I intentionally nosed it into the ground, thinking wrecked airplane is better than no airplane! Anyway, now the plane does a roll to the right and almost turns over before it crashes. I will review all your previous posts concerning the ABC's problem and will try to get it figured out. AEAJR, I really appreciate your posts. They are really helpful! And also thanks to the many others that I have gotten tips and encouragment from.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

This has been posted before, but I think this is what you need now.

Here is the procedure I tell people to follow to get the
plane to fly properly. I can't be sure how much damage you have done to the
plane due to crashes, so let me just offer this as a starter.

Unless you have removed the white foam that sits between the battery and the
electronics, ignore CG for the moment. Do all of your flight testing with the
6 cell battery. The 7 cell makes it nose heavy and will change the way it
flies. When we are trying to fix it, I would use the 6 cell only.

1) With your transmitter on and all trims centered, and your battery connected
in the plane, but with the motor off, look at the control surfaces on the tail
from the back. Are the movable parts exactly even with the fixed parts? If
not then you are going into a turn the moment you launch assuming the motor is
straight and the tail is straight. More on that later. Normally, these
surfaces have to be
perfectly aligned.

2) The boom between the pod an the tail - is it solidly anchored or can you
move it around inside the plane. If it moves, it has broken lose. This must be
fixed. It will either sag causing the nose to go down or it is twisted causing
the plane to turn right or left.

3) Check the tail, especially by the rigid plastic near the boom. Are there
any creases? I had a problem with my Aerobird that caused it to turn to the
right so badly that it crashed because it would go into a spiral. I tried
everything. Turned out there was a crease in the tail that caused the tail to
flex under pressure. On launch, this could take you into the ground.

4) It is possible for the tail to shift from a severe nose crash. There are
trim instructions in the owner's manual. AFTER you have checked the other
items and
fixed or found them to be OK, try trimming the tail for more up or down force.


Other points to be aware of:

When the motor is running, more air moves across the tail so that you get a
faster response for turns. The slower the motor is running, the slower the
plane will respond. When gliding, response can be very soft.

Make sure you are launching into the wind - directly into the wind, or the
plane will be turned by the wind when you launch. Same for landing.

Let me know how it goes.

If this doesn't help, I invite you to post photos.

These are what I would
want to see: All shots are with battery in and transmitter on, motor off.
All trims to center and not touching the stick unless I tell you to. All
tests are in Sport mode.

view from nose to tail - level with the top of the plane - to check allignmets
view from tail to nose - same reason

Remove the wing, lay the plane on a table on its side with the tail hanging
off the end. Place a ruler or a suitable straight edge under the body
extending to the tail. I want to see if the boom
is straight

surface allignment - battery connected, transmitter on - make sure your trims
are centered

For the shots from tail, I want you to center the motor in the frame so that
you are shooting STRAIGHT down the shaft.

view from the tail at tail height - full left command
view from the tail at tail height - full right
same - full up
same - full down
sticks centered and hands off shot.
Finally view from under the tail.

I am glad to help if I can.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

Thanks AEAJR< You saved me a lot of time searching through old posts. It sounds like I may have a creased tail. Do you have any suggestions on what type of adhesive to use to glue its poor split nose together?

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

The only thing I have found that works on the Poly body of the Aerobird is from Locktite called Plastix. It is a two part product.

However, clear packing tape works very well, so you can just tape it up. I would use the plastix, then reinforce it with tape on the inside at a minimum and would suggest the outside as well.

You could get colored tape and try to make the repair part of a color scheme.

The other approach is to to use some light fiberglass cloth, say 1 oz stuff, and epoxy resin. Drill some holes thorugh the bird so hte resin will go through the holes to bond the cloth from both sides. This can then be sanded and painted. Keep it pretty thin, you don't need to make a big blob of epoxy and it will throw off the CG.

Hope that helps.

RE: T-Hawk vs. gravity - need help
 

an easy reinforcement would be strapping tape on the underside of the tail and fishing line across the span of the tips of the tail. I have read and had my tail creased after nosing over in a landing.....ok nosing over several times on landings.....and read that guys were putting fishing line between the tips to keep them from spreading in the event of a nose over. I put strapping tape on the underside to strengthen the tail as well.