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problems with other club members

Old 08-17-2004, 09:25 PM
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1fish
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Default problems with other club members

Hi guys/girls fellow Pro-Bros (member 1001 here) I have been having a few problems as of late with a couple of members of my flying club.
First let me tell you a little about me, I have been flying off and on for about ten years, I flew gliders up untill december of 2003 the I got my first power plane. I am learning 3-D I can Flat Spin, Elevator, Wall, fly inverted, Harrier, K.E., K.E. Loop plus all the normal looping, rolling, snap rolling etc. I am now learning to hover I can do it pretty well for about 20-45 seconds some times even over a minute, and I am bringing it down lower and lower last week I was right on the deck (about a foot or two off the run way) I had a couple of members come over to after the flight and say if you want to hover buy a helicopter, and do that somewhere else we dont fly like that here! I asked if I was making them scared they said no ( I was in total control) but they dont like that kind of flying at this club. I said a few of the other members are asking me to teach them to fly like this, and I get many compliments on my flying, is it because you dont know how to fly 3-D ? I would be glad to show you how, they said no airplanes arent made to fly that way I should just stick to nowmal pattern aerobatics.
My question to you guys is, should I ignore them? Do any of you have this problem (its mostly just a couple of older guys)? I already paid next years dues and dont want to change clubs, I fly with total respect to others right of way and never direct the plane towards the pits/ other people how would you guys handle this?
Old 08-17-2004, 10:08 PM
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XJet
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Default RE: problems with other club members

I had this same problem 25 years ago when I built a flying wing that was pretty 3-D capable -- except it was also very fast. It had a 40 inch span a 12-inch chord and weighed in at around 2.5lbs with an OS40FSR and tuned pipe (lotsafun!)

The fuddy-duddies first of all complained that it was too fast - so when I started hanging trawling around hanging on the prop and doing flat-spins under power they complained that during such manuvers I clearly had no control of the craft so I was endangering the safety of others using the field.

Then, even when I toned my flying down to little more than puttering around on 1/4 throttle I was told that it was unacceptable for me to make dead-stick landings all the time because other members couldn't hear my plane approaching when the engine wasn't going. Remember this was a flying wing with no undercarriage so I had to do dead-stick landings or break a prop each time.

I should also point out that during the several months I was flying my wing I never once had a crash or "moment" -- but a significant number of those who complained most loudly about my flying ended up crashing -- one of them even hitting a small shed at the ends of the pits with his high-wing .40-powered trainer-type model.

In the end I just ignored them and let them play petty politics. Eventually a number of the younger fliers built their own flying wings and we became a significant minority. The fuddy-duddies then split off and formed their own club.

C'est la vie
Old 08-17-2004, 10:29 PM
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Burrito Bandito
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Default RE: problems with other club members

XJet is right,

What you are doing is clearly not a violation of any AMA rule at this point and time. Check your clubs' charter. If there are no rules pertaining to this (my guess there is not) then ignore them. If they are trying to intimidate you then you know where you stand (firm ground in my opinion), so ignore them.

It would be interesting to start a log book also. Log each crash made that you witness. Detail circumstances, pilot (including you), plane, and manuver attempted when the crash took place. You will find the results very interesting AND, if they want to give you any static in the future you will be armed with some pretty disarming statistics. Don't forget to stay involved in your club too....meetings, work crews, volunteer. I'm not saying kiss butt, however; it sounds like there are some people there that need to see that you walk upright and your knuckles don't drag the ground!

Oh, and those guys that want to learn 3D, TEACH 'em. Do it safe and don't give anyone any excuse to complain. Pretty soon you 3D guys can go up to one of those other malcontents and tell them that you really would appreciate it if they would use the rudder when they fly. "Real planes use a rudder ya know. So if you don't want to use rudder when you fly..........then get a helicopter."

Hope that helps.
J.
Old 08-17-2004, 10:38 PM
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jack01
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Disclaimer to keep from getting flamed (Probably not in this forum though) : I have nothing against scale guys in general. I have, and have had several larger scale airplanes. When I refer to "scale guys" I'm talking about the guys out there that sound like the guidance counselor from South Park and hate 3D.

- First off, you need to be tactful. Don't make them mad, or you're already a lost cause. Show them that you are a good person who pretends to sympathize with their concerns, and that you want to do your thing without bothering them, and vice versa.

- Secondly, try to explain to them that this is safe. Give them some examples.

- It sounds like they are big scale guys, so If you want to nail them on their own grounds, show them a video or a picture of Kirby Chambliss hovering his full scale Edge on the deck. Just say you are trying to do aerobatics like him.

- You could try to really get on their good side. Buy a giant scale P-51, add 10 pounds to whatever it weighs, put Futaba 3003's in it, put a G-62 on it, and proceed to crash it into the pitts because of something stupid. Trust me, they'll love you for it!

-Like I said, don't make them mad if at all possible.

- Offer to hover away from the pit area. The way it works at my field is that if I want to hover over the runway, I need to have an agreement between myself and the other pilot(s) about sharing the runway. If I havent worked it out with them before we're both in the air,I have to take it over the heli pad, or over the corn field. You may have to compromise to get this to work. If I'm the only one in the air, I can do whatever so log as I keep it in front of the pit fence.

- If they do mild aerobatics, then try this: Tell them that airplanes werent originally supposed to do aerobatics. Aerobatics came around when someone decided it would be fun to jump out of a plane, with a parachute, at an airshow. The plane barely managed to do a few loops before it crashed. The crowd loved it, so these "stunts" stuck around. Then ask them why they do loops and rolls if airplanes weren't originally supposed to do aerobatics at all. If they say something like, "Well, later airplanes were deisgned to do aerobatics." Just tell them, "Well then, this plane is a later airplane, and is designed to hover."

- You could look and see what's in the bylaws. If there's nothing in there prohibiting 3D, they can't say squat. Don't ask about the bylaws untill you have looked at them. You don't want to back yourself into a corner.

-If all else fails you could ask our good ole' buddy Dave for support......
Old 08-17-2004, 10:51 PM
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TERMAGATOR
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Hey man, you pay your dues just like them, is it in the club bylaws that way we dont fly like that around here?, then I'd....................................Hi, I'm GATOR!
Old 08-17-2004, 11:11 PM
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Spastic
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Default RE: problems with other club members

those guys make things so much fun, start bringing a baseball bat in your field box, talk softly and carry a big stick
it all boils down to the fact they cant stand seeing somebody fly better than them.
these are the same guys that think Quique and Chip use gyros to hover... oh wait they probably don’t know who they are...
Old 08-17-2004, 11:36 PM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Another thing that helps is to practice something other than hovering. When i fly anymore I get watched and genrally don't have to share the air much because I also fly the "imac" scale or whatever stuff with my 3d. For some reason most of the old guys like seeing rolling circles, and square loops etc... Then when I bring it down for a TR they don't mind it near as much. It's like giving a little good with the bad. Also if your learning to hover move to the end of the runway where noone is approaching from if the feild is real busy. By doing this they won't pay that much attention to you. Bottom line is you kind of have to get along with those guys, but you don't always have to do what they want you to do. Any of us that flies 3D I think has been through some of this crap. It's just that crap, but if your nice about it, and try to respect them (even if they don't deserve it) it will be better in the long run. Good luck.

I also try to get to the field before a bunch of people show up. That way I can practice all the close in stuff without ticking anyone off. May not work in your situation?

I like the baseball bat theory!
Old 08-17-2004, 11:57 PM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Hey 1fish, don't pay any attention to these NICE guys if you pay your club dues you can fly any damn way you please as long as you don't put anyone else in danger. These are probably the same ones that sit on there fat ass in the pitts and talk about flying but never seem to even start up the plane they brought to the field . Fly your profile and improve your skills thats what its all about and to hell with those NICE GUYS.The other members who really want to have fun will follow you. A message from Lidman Pro Bro # 32 and I indorse this message just like the big boys on TV.
Old 08-18-2004, 07:14 AM
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Billy Hell
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Default RE: problems with other club members

It's obvious what you need to do.....You need to invite about 10 Pro Bros down to your field. Get all of us on the flight line at once and by the end of the day they will be happy there is just one of you!
Old 08-18-2004, 07:30 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Billy's got the right idea. OK then that's it...the next PRO BRO meet is going to be at 1fish's field. Oh wait, that's all the way in CA.

Besides, isn't "the 4*40 the best plane ever designed and flown? Why would you want to fly anything else?"

Actually most clubs, including mine now, don't mind 3d at all as long as basic rules are followed. We do the 3d stuff mostly over the helicopter area on our field. If no other planes are up then we own the main runway...and there's no limits.
Old 08-18-2004, 07:37 AM
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Goinstraightup
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Default RE: problems with other club members

I was just discussing this with Tater (ProBro 1017) as one person (an officer too) in his club has asked him not to fly when other people were in the air.

If you are not breaking any AMA safety codes, and also as noted above if there is no specific club rules prohibiting 3D, then you have every right to fly when you want.

I'm not a lawyer, but I was treasurer of our club for 5 years and am Safety Officer now. We had extensive talks with a lawyer about legal and liability issues. One thing I noted from those meetings is is that paying for something gives you legal rights to use / own what you are paying for.

I know it is difficult, but I would stand up for your rights.

Jeff
Old 08-18-2004, 07:51 AM
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2fast4u
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Default RE: problems with other club members

We had the same growing pains at our club. The old farts complained about the hovering, speed planes, loud gas burners, slow 1/2 A planes, trainers......you get the picture. Oh well, those that could just kept doing their thing and the old ones got over it.

Stay active in the club, keep doing your thing, OTHERS WILL FOLLOW.
Old 08-18-2004, 08:07 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

It's funny how it seems to be the same at most clubs. Actually the old guys at my field like to watch that stuff except there are a few bad apples. I just hope we don't turn into those guys when we get older.
Old 08-18-2004, 08:14 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

ckoerner You got a serious point there at the end! We got to ensure we do not end up doing the same one day. Me and a couple of friends have the same problem at our field but I just ignore them. It's only the really old guys which are complaining. It's not worth arguing with em. Just give em the finger (thumbs up), turn around and go 3D further. They'll come around.
Old 08-18-2004, 08:30 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Here's how it is
1. You have the guys who come out and watch but never fly.
2. You have the guys that come out and watch, never fly and complain about everything.
3. You have the guys who bring out there big scale planes spending a half hour to set them up and never fly them.
4. You have the guys who think they are know it all's.
5. You have the guys that have been flying longer then you have been alive, but can not make a right hand turn at them.
6. You have the guys that all they do is complain about the cost of everything. Boy are they in the wrong hobby.
7. There is always a guy that thinks he is the safety officer.

Please add to the list.

Luckily at my field we have we have a bunch of good guys, but there are a few.....

P.S. I always offer to let them fly my profiles, but the never take me up on the offer.
Old 08-18-2004, 08:30 AM
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wagas
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Man I wish I had your problems with just Old NAGS complaining about 3D Flying....instead I gotta put up with my buddies trying to tug at my shorts while I'm 3D'n just to harass me while flying (heh Heh)....Now I have to stand there with 1 eye on my profile in front of me and the other on my back and stand with a wide stance..
Old 08-18-2004, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Well, all of the clubs near where i live are in county parks. not but owned by the clubs that inhabit them. and although they may have some say, they really dont have a right to tell me what to do. even though im not a member at some of these feilds, i pay for a county permit to be there. I dont like to step on peoples so i try to accomidate them, but most of them have gotten used to the down on the deck style of flying that is becoming so prevalent even the die hard "pattern is the only true discipline" guys. if your club is owned by the club then you should be as nice as possible and convert as many as you can to "our side". then let them try to vote you out.youll probly find that its not the majority but just the crotchety loud knowitall minority( this is actually a little known political party)who make the noise.
Old 08-18-2004, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Be active in your club, attend meetings, volinteer for as much as you can, mow the grass, paint the shed, what ever you can do. When it all said and done bord members will listen to the one who takes intrest in the club and helps out not the people who complain but don't help.
Old 08-18-2004, 11:54 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

I am the VP at our club. And yes 3D flying is encouraged and allowed
Old 08-18-2004, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

OTHERS WILL FOLLOW.
This is 100% truth. I'm currently seeing it happen.

P.S. I always offer to let them fly my profiles, but the never take me up on the offer.
It used to be this way, but now, whenever I offer, they accept. I knew things were progressing when the club Pres. comes up and stands next to me while I'm hovering.....not saying a thing. I simply asked "You want the box to try for yourself?" He said "Yep!"
Old 08-18-2004, 04:56 PM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

There will always be the person that has been flying for 35 years that will complain. He's trying to shoot touch and goes with his .40 size trainer (this is the only thing that he ever does) and you're hovering in his way! He thinks that this just isn't right! Try to ignore this kind of person. Some are set in their ways and will never see it your way. On the other hand, there are those that will like what they see you doing and will follow suit. Not everyone gets a kick out of shooting touch and goes every time they fly! Hang in there and do what makes YOU happy, not what makes THEM happy!
Old 08-18-2004, 08:15 PM
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1fish
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Hey guys!
I am sad to see its not only me, I guess many people have a hard time with change, we have a few very good flyer's at my field a few are ex pattern contestants and they are very, very good, smooth and precise. I enjoy watching them fly and they dont give me a hard time at all in fact one of them is in my box watching my thumbs quite often, and last week I caught him in a attempt to hover with his pattern plane!!
The ones giving me the problems are the ones who fly millitary scale/replicas and of them its mostly just two of them, I am not worried about getting kicked out of the club, shoot I am the one who donated the materials for our new tile floor in the bathrooms and kitchen! And I gave the club a upgrade disc for the Real Flight G2 so getting kicked out just isn't going to happen, I just like to get along with everyone, and don't want to cause any type of segregation in the club, I love to fly, and even more fly 3-D!!!
I sure wish I lived closer to more of you guys it would be great to fly with others who like 3-D the way I do (I get most of my stuff from videos and pictures) ............

As for the old guys I dont know who they are calling dangerous,, he he I have had to duck a few times from their misguided Quick-Fly 2's, Chaos and PT40's he he he
Old 08-19-2004, 08:26 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Tile floors in the bathroom and kitchen!?!?!?[X(] Man, times is hard,times is hard! Just rib'n ya sounds like you guys have a very nice club!
Old 08-19-2004, 08:40 AM
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2fast4u
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Default RE: problems with other club members

I am the one who donated the materials for our new tile floor in the bathrooms and kitchen!
Dang it boy, is that kinda like a dirt floor and a BBQ grill??? Yall are livin high on the hog bubba!! Just trying to get our club members to mow the pits along with the runway can sometimes be WWIII.[:@] A bathroom AND a kitchen???? Dude!!!!
Old 08-19-2004, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: problems with other club members

Ey what ya mean? We got a shower at our club!

OK ok ok it's a gas donkey job we made portable for camp weekends. Although the concrete for the shower and most of the piping and taps stay at the field. Hehe

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