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WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Old 11-02-2004, 07:56 PM
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Default WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

I'm trying to learn 3-D on my Magic Extra...having problems w/ cg. [&o]
Old 11-02-2004, 08:10 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Any profile by OMP will be a good plane to learn 3D on.
Old 11-02-2004, 08:31 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Try the Lanier pro twister I think its a good hovering trainer and a good machine. But thats my oppion!!
Old 11-02-2004, 09:58 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

I've been extremely happy with my Burrito. It is one of the best hover trainers available in nitro power. There are many of the flat foamy electrics available that are excellent as well. The key is to keep flying. Many of the other nitro kits won't take a beating like the Burrito will. I can't count the number of times I have dorked mine, look it over a second or two and refire it and continue flying. Other planes may not prove as forgiving. There are many planes that will do certain 3D maneuvers better than the Burrito but for entry level 3D training, I don't think the Burrito can be beat except by a foamy.
Matt

The Magic Extra is a good flying plane, but not a 3D plane. The right airframe makes a big difference!
Old 11-02-2004, 11:35 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

My vote is anything OMP, and any good foamie. I fly the Shock Flyer, but have seen a number of other designs impress the heck out of me. No experience with the Burritos, etc., but they seem to have their fan club.

I've got a Magic 3D and it is a mixed bag of abilities, but not a good 3D plane at all. Taught me a lot, principally how to hover. The plane really hovers and blenders much easier with a really aft cg. I have nearly two ounces of lead on the aft fuse to get the plane where I like it to offset my OS .46FX on the nose. The plane is horrible in inverted flight. I have to reflex the ailerons in the relative up position to maintain neutral stick inverted flight, then immediately reflex them back to neutral on return to normal upright flight. The plane won't knife edge at all. But, it is a fun plane to fly and I have beat the crud out of mine and keep flying it. My favorite maneuver is one I call the Mad Dog. It is an upright flat spin which you enter normally, then go to full DOWN elevator at idle and the plane really winds up its turn rate. Probably two plus turns per second. It is like a Mad Dog chasing its tail.

I have an OMP GS540P with an MVVS 2.15 gasser. Lots of fun, BUT, I've flown my foamie exclusively since getting it airborne. I've learned good hovering in close, torque rolling for more than one turn, and high alpha kife edge under the trees and around the yard light and mail box. I really can't wait to translate what I've learned to my OMP big bird next time I get the chance to fly it.


Doug
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Old 11-03-2004, 11:53 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Any profile (kit or ARF) from OMP or Morris Hobbies are excellent 3D flyers.
Old 11-03-2004, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

If you are learning 3d, then the 47" Edge 540 would be the best bet. This plane was specifically designed to be a 3d trainer. The Yak 54 planforms and Katanas are also very stable and you could learn on those much better than a Magic however they are a little more "nimble" in the air and what I would call a second step for 3d profiles.
Old 11-03-2004, 03:15 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

SIG Fazer. With max throws, it's a wild as you want. Had one with a 46fx and a 12x4 apc. Hover no problem. Not unlimited verticle but more than enough to have fun with. It's a cousin to the SIG somethin' extra which is also a great plane for 3d.
Old 11-04-2004, 02:57 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

ORIGINAL: voyager_663rd

SIG Fazer. With max throws, it's a wild as you want. Had one with a 46fx and a 12x4 apc. Hover no problem. Not unlimited verticle but more than enough to have fun with. It's a cousin to the SIG somethin' extra which is also a great plane for 3d.
Fazer good for 3D? Sorry but I refuse to believe that. Its surfaces are much too small and the whole plane is heavy. It hovers okish and yes it is definitely a fun plane to fly. Now the somethin extra? Sorry I have never heard of anyone having much 3D success with it. Still also a very nice plane to fly circles and chuck around.
Old 11-04-2004, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

I appreciaite the info guys..what is your take on the Extreme Flight E-540?
Old 11-04-2004, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Check out info. on the SPA3D at,
http://spadworld.net/
Free plans at
http://www.spadtothebone.com/freeplans.htm
It's a great 3D trainer and can smack the dirt hard and keep flying.
The Mc DDD is also and awesome 3D Spad ship.
Mr G
Old 11-04-2004, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Extreme flight RC edge would work for learning 3D, but my vote goes to the Morris knife or Paul Swanson Burrito. Avoid the fazer, the OMP stuff is good, but I feel more for a second 3D plane instead of a first (as would be the case with the EF edge). Jeff W.
Old 11-09-2004, 07:40 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

The Katana ARF from OMP is very stable and a good bet if you don't want to spend the time it takes to build a kit. If you like to build, the omp edge is the way to go, it can take a beating and come back for more.

Dave Pro Bro 723
Old 11-09-2004, 07:42 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

The Katana ARF from OMP is very stable and a good bet if you don't want to spend the time it takes to build a kit. If you like to build, the omp edge is the way to go, it can take a beating and come back for more.

Dave Pro Bro 723
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

I'm learning on a Tower Hobbies Fun 51. But let me warn you, this thing does not like 3D, but when you learn to hover this thing, you can hover any other plane that is capable. It's hard to do but it is possible to do 3D with it.
Old 11-18-2004, 04:24 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Take a look at the Extreme Dream. It is as mild or as wild as you want flying 3D - just dial it in to your capability. If you're a fairly experienced pilot look at the new Rage 3D.
Old 11-19-2004, 10:00 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Dude, there is some good advice above. And some seriously bogus advice from people I'd question if they had ever hovered anything.

I will only tell you this. I had a Magic Extra and was struggling badly to learn basic hovering. I bought and built an OMP 47" Edge profile and was eye level hovering in less than 20 flights. I have still never flown anything easier to learn to hover and harrier than the OMP Edge. That said, people I know can 3D, and trust, put Swany's Burrito in the same class, but I haven't flown one.

And the statments 'not unlimited vertical' and 'great hovering plane' are mutually exclusive.
Old 11-19-2004, 03:37 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

I just purchased a CG Extreme 330...couldn't resist the price...$120 @ LHS...box damage only. I'm throwing a Saito 72 on it w/ 13 x 4W APC. What do you guys think of that setup? I'm going to also purchase the OMP Katana GS ARF when funds come in next week. Any commits are welcome!
Old 11-19-2004, 09:15 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

The Morris Top Cap is great, hovers extremely easy and will do anything you ask it to do plus some. It also does one of the greatest inverted flat spins I have ever seen. I had a saito .72 in it and it would pull strait out of a hover at less than 1/8 throttle (incredibly over powered) I then put a O.S. 46fx on it, perfect match, hovers at 1/3 throttle and has unlimited vertical. I have also heard some very great things about the Morris Knife. The Magic is a great plane as well and very cheap too, I think they are going for 80 bucks at the moment. The only thing is, I could never get it to tumble like I can the Top Cap, but its a fun plane
Old 11-19-2004, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

I fly a CG Extreme 330; it’s a fantastic little plane. This is my primary plane right now. It hovers very very easily (as long as you have the CG back far enough). Basically, the plane just wants to hover ... you'll see. I’m not the best 3D guy – but I routinely hover the Extreme 330 down to within an inch of a tail touch (on calm days). I’ll be putting the ski’s on again this winter and getting some stick time in the snow. You will not regret your purchase. Search around RCU and read the various comments on the Extreme 330. Here are my comments – I apologize in advance for the long post.

Everybody has their own preferences for hardware selection, assembly and the like. In my case I tend not to use much of the stock hardware supplied with an ARF. So basically, I don't care about the quality of that stuff. I also don't really care about the instructions - since I know how I like things assembled (and there tons of comments and pictures on RCU that cover the assembly process and a good range of set-ups). So when I say the plane is fantastic I'm basically commenting on its 3D flight characteristics with a nice solid set-up of servos, linkage, engine and the like. The plane does not actually fly all that great in level flight – but who cares … this is a 3D machine. In any event, you may have good luck with a completely stock set-up … I can’t say.

Here are a few examples from my set-up. I’m not saying that all of this is necessary, this is just what I did:

I used Hitec HS-545BB servos – they have 5-pole motors so they center better than standard servos (i.e., 3-pole) - very solid gear train, less chance of flutter. I try to use rod ends on both ends of push rods - since rod ends have no slop (as opposed to Z-bends or even a typical clevis). As a result I use Dave Brown push rods or home made push rods, made with welding rod and the Rodchuck thread cutting system. Basically this allows me to make custom length, very rigid, push rods with good threads on both ends. If I can't use a rod end, I use a Hayes clevis, they are great - failure is not likely. In my case I only used clevises on the servo end of the aileron push rods (since the aileron servos are inside the wing - hard to get a rod end in there).

I used the supplied control horns on the ailerons – but after looking at the quality I used Du-Bro control horns on the tail feathers. The stock control horns are still holding – but they are kinda flexible. After 80 flights, still no slop in the control linkages. This little plane has been essentially maintenance free once I got the basic configuration sorted out.

I use a Hitec HS-81MG servo on the throttle. Sometimes I hit the throttle linkage when I’m yanking the fuel line off the needle valve. I actually stripped the gears on a standard HS-81. The HS-81MG is tough – takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

I seal all of the hinge gaps with 1” wide clear Ultracote strips. As with any 3D capable profile, the control surfaces on the Extreme 330 are large – it is important to minimize the chance of flutter. My theory is leave a bit of a gap (allows for max throws) and seal with Ultracote. Believe it or not (despite all of the other upgrades), I used the supplied CA hinges and they are holding fine. I thrash this little plane –lots of blenders, spins and the like. I fly a bit too fast on occasion as well – less than perfect throttle management. The hinge selection issue is a can of worms – so I’ll just say – the stock CA hinges seem to work fine on the Extreme 330.

I started out using the stock fuel tank mounted with the supplied zip ties. I was having some fuel foaming problems (and I was not in love with the quality of the stock fuel tank). I switched to an 8oz Hayes fuel tank, mounted with some little hooks and rubber bands - problem solved. I only use Prather fuel line – it’s tough stuff – does not develop air leaks very easily. I use Sullivan tail wheels – they are simply great – spring loaded – protects your rudder servo gears from stripping.

I use an O.S. 46FX, Ultrathust muffler, APC 12.25x3.75 prop on 15% nitro. I would not say this set-up makes the most sense if you are starting from scratch – but it is a darn good combination. I have little doubt that an appropriate sized four stroke would be better (e.g., YS63, OS70, Saito 72 or 82 …). In my case I already had the 46FX, all broken in. I was not happy with the stock 46FX performance so I got the Ultrathrust muffler – which is an absolutely superb, but expensive little muffler. The Ultrathrust gives the 46FX a big performance boost. The mid-range has the guts to swing that 12.25x3.75 prop with no problem – throttle response is quite good despite the heavy prop.

Hmmmm, what else can I tell you …

I did not use the little plastic channel to cover the servo wires from the two servos in the tail. I simply laid the wires up against the fuse and covered them with a long strip of Ultracote – kinda formed a tunnel to keep wires from getting covered in oil - still holding.

The ailerons are likely to be warped since they are made from very light balsa. They can be straightened by twisting them in the opposite direction and shrinking wrinkles out of the covering. I straightened mine after they were mounted to the plane. Ultracote begins to shrink at 300 degrees (see http://www.*********.org/planes_covering-tips.htm). So if you have a good covering iron, and you set the temperature correctly, and you are careful, your can straighten the ailerons no problem. In any event, the ailerons don’t have to be perfectly straight.

You are going to need to cut a pretty good sized slot for the aileron push rods to exit the wing. I covered the openings with some Ultracote – still holding. It is not so easy to fit a standard sized Futaba R127DF receiver in the wing. I used an FMA Quantum 6 receiver – it’s light, tiny and it’s a very good performing receiver.

The stock landing gear is a bit soft, but it works just fine. I have had to bend it back to shape a few times – but the Extreme 330 can be landed like a feather most of the time.

Read the various posts regarding the CG. I did not measure the exact CG location … I just slowly moved things around and moved the CG back until I liked the way the plane flies. Basically, I could not hover the thing with the CG in the recommended range – but with the CG moved back – no problem. I actually started with a 600mah battery strapped to the fuel tank to get the CG in the recommended range. I later switched to an 1100mah pack in the wing – which moved the CG back at least ¾” or so. I actually would like the CG back a bit farther (the plane still needs some down to fly inverted). I’m not sure how I will move the CG back just yet (I’ll have to get a bit creative to do this without adding weight).

One last thing, it’s a pretty strong little plane. I had a deadstick at about 100ft in pretty high winds. There were too many planes in the air at the time and I did not realize the engine quit (since the 46FX is extremely reliable). The plane basically dropped straight down, kinda in an upright flat spin and just pancaked in, bounced good and hard off the dirt and flipped onto its back. I was pretty certain the fuse would be broken – to my surprise - no damage – just bent landing gear. I was flying again within 10 minutes. You will enjoy this plane

Good Luck,
Moses
Old 11-21-2004, 11:54 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

zzzzz...ahh..zzzzz...ahh..oh-oh, I'm sorry Moses...it's a little past my bed time. The plane looks great out of the box. I just hope it 3D's as good. I just completed assembly. Will test as soon as this blankiedy-blank weather clears.
Old 11-22-2004, 08:33 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Sorry for the data dump. Weather has been lousy here as well (very windy and/or wet on the weekends).

Enjoy,
Moses
Old 11-22-2004, 12:11 PM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

ORIGINAL: voyager_663rd

Hover no problem. Not unlimited verticle but more than enough to have fun with.

What is this? I'm sure to hover you would need vertical, or it would be backing down all the time.
Old 11-23-2004, 02:28 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Well I think what he means is that the plane does have a ceiling when going vertical. I've got that on my Funtana as well. It hovers well DOD at about 3/4 throttle and then when you punch out it goes into a hover again at somewhere around 300 feet at full throttle. Where the air simply becomes too thin to keep pulling it vertical. You can still fly much higher than that but obviously you would have to use the wings a little bit to get higher to even out of site. Same with any full scale plane they all have ceilings. Like most light weight aircraft have fairly low service ceilings where the engines will still have enough power to keep the plane flying. Most of them are around 15000 feet or somewheres there not sure about the exact figures. But higher than that they can't keep altitude.
Old 11-23-2004, 09:20 AM
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Default RE: WHATS A GOOD PROFILE FOR LEARNING 3-D

Spacey,
The air density at 500' is about 2% less than at sea level. Neither engine power, lift, drag or anything else changes enough to produce a noticable effect on a plane flying at 0 to 500'.

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