Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Will you guys please define Flapperons and Spoilerons (as they relate to 3D).

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

I posted a reply in the other thread you have....but here goes.

Flaperons are where the ailerons go down together as well as functioning like ailerons. Spoilerons are where the ailerons go up together as well as function like ailerons. This is the technical definition, but....

It is hard to do much 3D with them controlled by the flap knob since most people don't have three hands, so they are linked to the elevator control in practice.

If they are linked to the elevator where the flaperons go down when the elevator goes up, most people commonly shorten this to just "flaperons" instead of saying "I'm running flaperons coupled to elevator with a 50% mix". They just say they are running flaperons. Now in practice they will also go up at the same when down elevator is applied, but the common terminology is if the flaperons move opposite of elevator input, this is flaperons.

If they are linked to the elevator where the spoilerons go up when the elevator goes up, most people commonly shorten this to just "spoilerons" instead of saying "I'm running spoilerons coupled to elevator with a 50% mix". They just say they are running spoilerons. Now in practice they will also go down at the same when down elevator is applied, but the common terminology is if the flaperons move the same as elevator input, this is spoilerons.

Flaperons coupled to elevator (flaperons for short) are most commonly used to tighten loops. Spoilerons coupled to elevator (spoilerons for short) are most commonly used to kill lift for wing rock control in harriers and to make elevators (the manuever) more manageble as well.

Much to do about nothing....

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Man chuck, that is about the best explanation I have come across. I have found that some airplanes will wingtip (knife edge) spin like crazy if you run "spoilerns"! And my sledge will flat spin a lot flatter with the flaperons turned on! Spoilerons also make waterfalls tighter, on all my planes except the burrito. And for some reason that burritto doesn't like spoilerons to waterfall?

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Mr. Auger, that's the best explanation I've heard yet and Lord knows I've tried! I'm looking for someone to assist me with CAFEENMANS' 3D CHIP IMPLANTATION, do you have any clean #11 blades?:D

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

:D Chuck you are da man!!! To be honest with you I already knew the definition. There is a post in the beginner forum that argues that flaperons are defined as aileron acting as Flaps ONLY. I know this is the text book definitnion and its correct but my argument was that in the 3D funfly world we use the elevator mixed in and define it as flaperons as well. This would mean that the definition is really dependent on the type of flying you do. The guys there thought I dreamed this up and that I was the only person in the world (besideds combatpigg) that had two definitions. Its hopeless to argue with the old timers :eek:

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

ST9,
No one said they thought you dreamed it up. What was said, was that while it may be an accepted term in 3D circles, it is NOT appropriate to mis-lead beginners by telling them that "Flaperons" include elvator mixing. Flaperons have nothing to do with elevators.

Re-read Chuck's post, As he said, most people don't bother giving the full expalnation, "Flaperons" MIXED WITH ELEVATOR. No where did he say that Flaperons include a mix with elevator, as you and combatpigg kept arguing in the other post.

Can we consider the matter closed? ;)
Dennis-

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Ho hum, at the risk of repeating myself here goes.....
Mike McConville in an article on flying the FuntanaS 3D .40 states he uses what he calls coupled spoilerons and snap spoilerons. Coupled spoilerons work exactly as Chuck described above. Confusion arises when you state in the beginners section that flaperons include elevators as part of the mix. They do not. This is a separate mix that should be activated by a switch such as the elevator to flap switch on the XP8103.
Such a switch would enable you to turn the mix on for your harriers and waterfalls and turn it off for your knife edges and normal flight.

So, in a sense, we are both right. But to ensure clarity when explaining a term, you should at least try to use proper teminology to differentiate between two similar applications. Is 'coupled flaperons' so difficult to say?

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Our point was to let beginners know there is another side ( a brighter and better side(called 3D)). Go back and read man!! I said several times that I agreed with the definition in its technical form however there is more than one clear cut definition. My argument was that it means different things in different areas of flying and to call combatpigg wrong is obsurd. CASE CLOSED

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Nobody ever said this. What was said was that Flaperons are Flaps and Ailerons mixed together to act as both flaps and ailerons which is exacty what Mr. Auger said.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

No there isn't. There is one definition. There is also some lazy, misguided and misleading terminology that is incorrect, but used by some 3D folks.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

I gave up using flaperons, it's not needed with the profiles we are all flying today, I think there are some profiles that lack elevator and need flaperons for tight loops but for the most part they are becoming extinct with the exception of harrier training.

And I've never messed with spoilerons in 20 yrs, don't see the point in it.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Do you all realize your arguing over nothing? Does it really matter? I understand you don't want a beginner to get the wrong idea but the only idea your giving a beginner is that you like to argue!

Jeesh guys! :D:)

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

I disagree. :)

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Please be careful what you call a Waterfall. In a true Waterfall, the wings aren't even working. The plane should be falling while tail and nose rotate around the wing. There will be a slight deviation from the vertical line due to the intitiation of elevator and blip of throttle to begin the manuever. Gary Seeloff did the best I've ever seen when he was flying his H9 Cap. The Cap would rotate so cleanly around the wing it would carry a full half rotation more before stopping. It would only fall just a hair more than one plane length.

What most people call Waterfalls is nothing more than a super tight inside/outside loop. When you see one performed properly you'll know it without a doubt.


Adam Q

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

HI THERE AKAHOVERIT! I like to keep up to date and was surprised to hear that flaperons aren't needed any more. Do you just crank in more elevator and call it a day? It seems like flaperons would still help keep the nose up better in a flat spin. If you have the time I would like you to shed some more light on that!

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

To be honest I dont use flapperons either. I disagree however b/c I do think there is a use for them and especially for spoilerons. Maybe not with profiles but the spoilerons really do help take the wing rocking out of harrier flight.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

ST9, I guess it's a question of what you need more and the spoilerons are handy. I'm not good enough yet to do any mid flight reprogramming!

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

For spoilerons there is no reporgramming. If you have a nice computer radio you can just hit a switch to turn it on and off.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

HI ST9! I don't have that luxury, I have to decide from flight to flight what type of flying I want to do. Maybe if I stand on a freeway off ramp with a sign, some sympathetic RCer will take pity[&o]! I want to see more about your foam YAK! Looks like you could build 2 at once without getting slowed down much. Avoid hot wiring that kind of foam because it produces very toxic [[[sm=bananahead.gif]]]fumes,later dude.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

I'm trying to get good at elevators to landings or into harrier. I've done about a dozen "succesful" elevator landings and have harriered some, all without spoilerons. I'm flying a Knife, what percentage spoileron to elevator mix (to be politically correct) do you guy's recomend I try to help out in my endevor?

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

More about the Foam yak will come tonight. The rain and wind hasnt been pilot friendly for the past few days. We got a good day friday but I had to go out of town. Its cold and a little windy out today (10-20) but I am going to go out anyways and I hope to get 6 or 7 more flights on it. I have all intentions of putting some spoilerons on it but I havent had time. The guy who designed the plane has spoilerons and Flaperons (errrr...should I say Flaperons coupled with elevator (it sure is easier just to say flaperons)) on his and it seems to take a lot of the wing rocking out during harrier flight. Maybe we can get some more pictures taken today. All of the hovering pics get boring but its the only thing that a picture can really capture. I have a little bit of video but the quality is fairly low, the file is large and the length is short. Besides I dont know how to post a video on here, I guess I need to look into that.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

HEY JIVE TURKEY! There are a lot of variables involved with finding the right amount. I would start low[10% of elevator throw], and work up in increments of 10 until you,"get there".

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Thanks combatpigg! The reason I asked was because I tried it with 50% and it was nearly uncontrollable[X(] I'll use your suggestion and start a LOT lower! (I'm lovin' learnin' 3-D:D)

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Heres a small update on the foam yak. The weather sucked today. It was cloudy, cold and the wind was howling (15-20mph). I only got 2 flights on it today. The first flight was used to get me accustomed to the high wind. The 2nd flight I did a lot of hovering down on the deck. Of course the wind always blows the wrong way at our field this time of year so I moved to the other side of the runway and hovered back towards the shelter. It was hard to get the plane settled into the hover b/c of the high winds but once you found exactly where the wind was blowing from hovering was very stable (considering the wind). I found out that when I hovered really close in that the exhaust seemed to fog my contacts up a little bit when the wind blew it back in my face and I had to keep blinking to be able to keep the model clear. I was going to do my famous plane catch while hovering but it I just didnt feel good about it today due to the puffs of wind that would come along from time to time. Other than hovering I did a lot of super deep 3D snaps, rolling circles, inverted harriers, and a handful of rolling loops (which I am still perfecting). I will try to get out again around tuesday of this week. The forecast shows good weather through wednesday then more wind.

RE: Flapperons V.S. Spoilerons
 

Yeah I kow it takes a little more time to explain to the old timers that when you refer to flaperons you are actually refering to flaperons coupled to elevator....so dont bother. All of us 3D pilots in this forum know what your talking about. Lazy or not! And I would also add to that that most people in the 3D world simply refer to flaperons as the flaps dropping when the elevator goes up and visa versa for the spoilerons.

So when you explain to a newbie, you might want to clarify the actual term flaperon/spoileron properlt with an added explanation that most of the pilots that fly 3D may actually be refering to flaps coupled to elevator.

Now, in regards to the comment that flaperons are becoming a thing of the past...or something like that. That is a matter of opinion. In the group with which I fly it is becoming more common as opposed to obsolete. I routinely use flaperons when performing flat spins either upright or inverted and waterfalls. Im fortunate in that my Sledge does the best harrier in the world.....even without spoilerons, so therefore I rarely use them. But if the model liked it I would definately.