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FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

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FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Old 12-11-2005, 11:02 AM
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Default FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

After Purchasing my J600R from FTE last March, I finally got around to setting it up on a test bench to run it.

I took it out on my test stand yesterday afternoon. It was 32 degrees out. I'm using Kerosene with BP Turbine oil, and Coleman Powermax for starting. All TEMS settings at default as set by the Factory

I initiated the autostart procedure 7 or 8 times and all failed. It seemed to get some preliminary ignition of the Propane but the EGT wouldn't go above 72 deg.

Finally I decided that the Propane needed some help and got my heat gun and aimed it at the Propane start tank to warm it slightly then at the intake of the turbine to warm it. The second attempt at auto start was successful and the unit ran without a hiccup through about 70 ounces of fuel at various throttle settings. Idle at 55,000, top RPM 162,000.

Is this normal for this temperature? Are the turbines just hard to start in cold weather?

Another issue. Using 6V, freshly charged NiMH packs on my receiver, I kept getting a "No R/C" error on the Turbine display. A 4.8V pack of the same manufacture worked everytime. Is the TEMS voltage sensitive. Do I need a regulator for the higher Voltage packs?

My buddy has an FTE 600 that lets you choose between 4.8 or 6V receiver operation in the setup menu. I didn't find anything like this on the Display.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Bob (soon to be the 2nd NH Turbine Waiver holder!)

Old 12-11-2005, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Hi Bob,

(1) EGT:
You're correct that the engine can get a bit temperamental near freezing, as it appears to be in NH this time of year. Reason being the propane canister has trouble boiling off enough gaseous start fuel to maintain the flow, so the flame will sometimes stay going in the engine but the EGT will not sustain above 100C. The ECU watches for 100C before it initiated kerosene flow so that's clearly the reason for the failed starts...

The solution is almost exactly as you did. In some cases, simply warming the on-board canister with your hand will help. In cooler climates I typically recommend that users keep their external propane canister connected and open to feed the system, in an orientation that provides extra gaseous start fuel. Do not let it feed liquid start fuel, as it will cause an instant rise in EGT that's faster than the ECU is expecting and the start will be aborted.

Basic rules:
- With a trigger valve on a Powermax can (or any can with an internal clunk) hold the canister up side down to feed gaseous start fuel.
- With as trigger on a camp stove-type canister with no clunk, use the canister right side up.
- shake the can to verify if there's a clunk, and always test the flow prior to plugging it in to make sure you're not feeding liquid. Liquid start fuel will cause a failed start almost guaranteed, and possibly damage the motor with prolonged exposure.

When using the external bottle technique in cold temperatures, most leave their propane bottles in the car or somehow insulate them to keep it artificially high. If you're testing at home, keep the bottle indoors until you need it for the start..

There's also a slight chance your EGT probe may have shifted outwards while mounting the turbine or while it was in shipment. I'd suggest calling John M at FTE and let him diagnose that for you if the EGT seems low while running it.

(2) ECU "No R/C" error:
Many users run 6V receiver systems, including myself, so I don't think that's a concern. The system is designed for use with both voltages.

By reading your description, it sound like you're running your system on 4.8V, then switching to 6V at which time the error appears. Receivers may change their PWM output very slightly depending on the 4.8V or 6V input voltage.

Please hook up the 6V pack then reset the ECU by selecting "reset to default", the last item in the "physical adjusts" menu. Next, re-train the ECU to the receiver by selecting "Learn R/C Parameters", the 3rd item in the "physical Adjusts" menu. Hopefully that helps. I suspect the PWM range has increased 'just' past one of your endpoints.

Good luck with the new engine!
Kelly
Old 12-12-2005, 08:55 AM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Also be sure and check to make sure that your ECU is not too close to the receiver. For some reason my PST 600 is extremely sensitive to interference. By moving the receiver as far as possible from the ECU I was able to correct that problem. I am asssuming you are using a PCM system system as well.
The temperature probe, as Kelly says, is extremely sensitive and once you get it where it needs to be don't touch it. Make a mark on it so when at the field you will be able to tell if it has moved on you. DO NOT make a 90 degree bend in the tip of the probe, especially using pliers. I learned that lesson the hard way. It will break the probe. Another to check is to make sure that all of your connections, especially your temp probe cable, are secure. I had one small plug which had a bad connection, when you plugged it in, the wire pushed out the back of the connector. These engines are great. They run really well and put out a tremendous amount of power. Customer service is great as well. Good luck.
Tommy
Old 12-12-2005, 09:20 AM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Hi Tommy,

The EGT probe was installed when I got the engine from FTE. Apparently they test run them prior to shipping. Once it got hot enough to run it ran great. I'm sure that the 32 deg F temperature had something to do with the difficulty I had starting it.

I will do a reset to defaults and retrain the ECU with a freshly charged 6V pack attached and see if the "No R/C" problem goes away.

We had 14" of snow Friday and I ran this in my backyard on Saturday. I had the exhaust pointed toward a hill in my backyard. The jet blast was rolling the snow into snoballs and blowing them up the hill! Lot's of power!

Now to finish up my Baby Boomerang!

Bob
Old 12-12-2005, 12:19 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

I have one on a Boomerang and it is a great combination. You're going to love it. I know the probe comes installed, but in the processing of moving the engine around, it is easy for it to some dislodged. That temp probe is pretty cantankerous and a millimeter or more in either direction can cause a failed start. Just be weary of it, and the first thing to check is the temp probe, especially if you get a gas light up and no ramping. Watch the handheld and you will see erroneous temperature readings. Took me a while to learn, but I am a little on the slow side.
Sounds like you may have stumbled upon a new method of snow blowing. Bet your negihbors appreciated the site....LOL
Tommy
Old 12-12-2005, 12:46 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Hi Bob,

Yes the thermocouples are installed and engines are test run at least once, but I've had a few cases where customers reported temperature problems after shipping or more often after installation. For more info on re-tuning the thermocouple position, please refer to page 22 in your user's guide. Generally speaking, the EGT probe should be inserted with somewhere around 2mm of exposure to the exhaust flow. Its easy to bump it, but just as easy to re tune it...

As per Tommy's comments about ECU placement, its a recommendation that ECU's be placed as far away from the RX or RX antenna as possible, but that's not a hard rule. Many PST customers are forced to keep these two components in close vicinity of each other without any problems though. Almost every customer has a different configuration of hardware (RX, ECU, gyros, brake valves, servo brands, etc ,et, etc...) and from countless manufacturers. Problems are very rare but there's never and absolute guarantee that the components will all interact exactly as intended. For that reason, PST and many other manufacturers will recommend the 'best practice' of spacing them apart just to be safe. The same guideline should be used when placing the fuel pump vs. RX or RX antenna.

A proper range check (with engine running, ~1m off the ground, 360 deg rotation) will likely show any signs of trouble.

For further guidance, John M or myself are currently available (but not for long since John's leaving FTE soon) as service reps in North America, so please don't hesitate to contact either of us. My phone number is 604-592-0994 (after 6PM Pacific) should you want to talk through any concerns. The same goes for any other customer, regardless of what distributor brought the engine into the country.

BRG,
Kelly
Old 12-12-2005, 12:54 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Tommy,

I've had the Boomerang since last March. We had exchanged some replies on the Boomerang forum. Our club president fired up his FTE 600 a couple of weeks ago and invited me to his house to assist. Hearing his run gave me the push I needed to get going again on this project. All that needs to be done is mount the nose wheel retract and install the turbine and all it's components.

I'll be flying in the spring for sure.
Thanks for your help!

Bob
Old 12-12-2005, 01:01 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Kelly,

I will check the EGT probe again to make sure that nothing moved. I have handled the turbine quite a bit in the 7 or 8 months I've owned it, but just for show and tell.

Thanks very much for the advice on component placement. The manual does mention this in passing.

I haven't installed anything in the airframe yet so I still have choices to make of what goes where.

Thanks for your help and I appreciate you giving me your phone #.

Best Regards
Bob

Old 12-12-2005, 01:15 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

No problem Bob, happy to help.

I should mention I think I made a mistake above in quoting the min required EGT as 100C before the pump will start. I believe the default is 110C and I used my 'factory' data terminal to tune it back to 100C, just to see if there's any advantages in colder climate conditions.

Kelly
Old 12-14-2005, 03:12 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

I went back and did a reset on the TEMS the readjusted everything to the numbers that were written in the back of the book.

I still get the "No R/C" message when trying to run a freshly charged 6V NiMH battery pack.

I checked the voltage on the 6V packs I charged and they are all up around 6.85 V.

The 4.8V packs work fine and when freshly charged show 5.8V.

I think that maybe most of the jet jockies run 7.4V Lipo packs with 5.5V regulators maybe that's why no one else has seen this problem??

Another thing, when going through the menus for Adjust Ramp, ther are two items listed in the manual that never show up on my display.

Ramp Switch-Low
Ramp Switch-High

Is this something that was done away with?
What does it do?

Old 12-14-2005, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!


ORIGINAL: Meesh

Tommy,

I've had the Boomerang since last March. We had exchanged some replies on the Boomerang forum.
Bob
Where is the "boomerang" forum?
Old 12-14-2005, 04:55 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!


ORIGINAL: Meesh

I went back and did a reset on the TEMS the readjusted everything to the numbers that were written in the back of the book.

I still get the "No R/C" message when trying to run a freshly charged 6V NiMH battery pack.

I checked the voltage on the 6V packs I charged and they are all up around 6.85 V.

The 4.8V packs work fine and when freshly charged show 5.8V.

I think that maybe most of the jet jockies run 7.4V Lipo packs with 5.5V regulators maybe that's why no one else has seen this problem??

Another thing, when going through the menus for Adjust Ramp, ther are two items listed in the manual that never show up on my display.

Ramp Switch-Low
Ramp Switch-High

Is this something that was done away with?
What does it do?
Hi Bob,

Just to confirm... You make mention of setting the variables after the reset, but did you follow through with retraining the ECU to the Receiver once the 6V pack was hooked up or was it still trained for the 4.8V pack? Also, what radio system are you running and what are your throttle ATV / failsafe settings? While we're discussing it, can you make the error go away on 6V by moving any of the wires, potentially indicating a bad throttle lead? If it still turns out to be a problem and the motor's under warrantee (which it should be since it was purchased last March), please send me the engine's serial number and we'll investigate changing the ECU for you.

To answer your question on the Ramp switch Lo and High settings, they're variables that define intermediate points on the ramp curve. Units are a percentage, where 0 is idle and 100 if wide-open. Basically they tell the ECU when to switch from one ramp acceleration value to another. It really doesn't serve much purpose to the customer on a production engine to be honest, which is likely why its not available. Homebuilders use a nearly identical ECU, in which case these variable are helpful for matching an engine's needs. I think I read something about those settings being removed in the latest PST software release notes, but I don't have the mail any more and it was some time ago so I can't confirm. You may have found a discrepancy in the manual...

Thanks,
Kelly
Old 12-14-2005, 06:32 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Hi Kelly,

After I did the reset I shut everything down then powered up with a 6V pack. I got the "No R/C" message again.

How can you reteach the TEMS if the TEMS isn't seeing an R/C signal????

I moved everything and nothing seemed to help.

Bob
Old 12-14-2005, 06:33 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Edgar,

Wrong choice of words. I meant to say "BooMerang Thread" here on RCU. It was pretty big.

Bob
Old 12-14-2005, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!


ORIGINAL: Meesh

Hi Kelly,

After I did the reset I shut everything down then powered up with a 6V pack. I got the "No R/C" message again.

How can you reteach the TEMS if the TEMS isn't seeing an R/C signal????

I moved everything and nothing seemed to help.

Bob
Sorry Bob,

I should have been more clear. I was looking to find out if it displayed an abnormal (really high or really low) pulse width in the teaching function, or just the same "no R/C" error message. I've forwarded the issue on to PST to discuss a solution here. To start with, could you please PM me the serial number of your engine.

Kelly
Old 12-14-2005, 07:42 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Kelly, this sounds the same as Phil's symptoms..I wonder if it may be the same cause...a faulty RC extension.......???
Old 12-14-2005, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Nope, unfortunately... The latest on Phil is that its likely an R/C failsafe problem and not ECU related. We're still working on it, trying to nail down exactly where the problem lies in his system, but the ECU's been swapped just in case and the error persisted. I have his old ECU here and it appears to function as expected without any error notifications, although I haven't run tested it yet. Phil's running on a pair of on a 4-cell packs so I'm pretty sure that one's a different animal all together.

Kelly
Old 12-15-2005, 12:54 AM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Just for the record for other readers, Phil's Turbine runs great, I've seen it run, and helped with a few adjustments during one of his early runs. He was having a "no R/C" message, but it appears to be on the radio side on things, not the ECU. He had told me that it was a faulty extension.

The symptom's were similar to what Meesh is experiencing, which is why I jumped in here....
Old 12-15-2005, 07:10 AM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Thanks Nony. Any input at all is helpful when you don't know what the cause is.

To be honest with you I don't know if it is a problem or if this is the way it was designed to run. Maybe 6.85V out of a freshly charged pack is just too much. This whole "problem" can be fixed by me installing a voltage regulator to keep it at 6V or less.

Thanks again for the input.

Bob
Old 12-15-2005, 10:08 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Bob,
I run a PST, and Wren's all with the GB TCU....which is one of the reasons I bought the PST four years ago.
I've had the same problem on my "homebuilt" version of the TCU, and with the PST-TCU.
The solution was switching packs.
There was something with that particular pack that both of the TCU's did not like!

I run dual 1200Ma NiMh packs from Cermark.Snce I use analog servos, they are more than happy with the unregulated 5-cell packs, as is the TCU.
Before adding more variables to the equation, try a new/different 5-cell pack. It might make the difference.

Greg
Old 12-15-2005, 10:18 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!

Hi Greg,

I tried 5 different packs, 3 brand name and 2 generics, all with the same results. Tonight, at Kelly's suggestion, I plugged 5 servos into the receiver. The extra current draw stabilized everything and it worked like a champ. No more problems! If the turbine was mounted in the Boomerang instead of on a test bench this would have never happened. Live and learn!

A big thanks to everyone for alll their help!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

Bob
Old 12-16-2005, 11:34 PM
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Default RE: FTE PST J600R First run problems! Need some help!


Tonight, at Kelly's suggestion, I plugged 5 servos into the receiver. The extra current draw stabilized everything and it worked like a champ. No more problems!
= = = = = = = = =

OH CRUD!...I never thought about doing that! It was just the engine and he battery!......I wonder if I recycled the battery yet?

Thanks for that tip!!

Greg

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