daven

My Feedback: (1)

I've been thinking of the composite Q500's that have come and gone, and when you think about it, there is really only three that are being produced in any quantity.

Terrence has a HUGE backlog on the Neme, Chuck has cut back on his Vortex's, and Bruce has Shotguns available, but I'm not convinced they are as fast.

Are we entering a period where we will be in short supply of FAST composite Q500's?????

Do any of the current Balsa/Foam manufactures plan on putting out a composite version??

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

Don't forget that, Lyle is still selling the "Bird of Prey". Which is the same wing that Gino DelPonte puts on his airplane.....

I talked to Tim Lawlor a few weeks back and he was wanting to sell his molds for both the Q40 and the V-Max. If someone wanted to start producing the V-Max, there you go....

Terrance has kind of stole the market with his awesome craftsmanship, at a pretty good price. We will see if he can keep up with the growing popularity of his plane.....?

RB

daven

My Feedback: (1)

I did forget about the Bird, but I've never been convinced it is on par with the Neme or Vortex's of the world. It is a better value, but you do have to do a bit more work with it to get it ready. With its newest wing, it does seem more competitive, that is if the wings don't explode

Terrence must have a big backlog, mines been on order since I lost my last one at the Winterfest. Hopefully it will be ready soon.

SSAN

Dave,

As you know, I've been working on the SAM-RAI in wood form for a while and will be doing a composite mold in the near future.

Currently, I have one of the guy here doing the coordinates for me and will move forward to get it CNC cut once it's ready. Although, he seem to be having trouble in those coordinates from what I wanted so I don't know when it will be available. Another thing is, cost is BIG factor cause I only have $4500 now to spend for the wing and tail, and I was told by Jim Allen it cost approximate $7500 to complete the mold. Ouch! That's quite steep for me so I don't know when this will actually materialize. But we'll see what happen...

Ed Smith

To try and make a living producing racing airplanes is chancy at best. It is not possible to produce enough in a week to live on. If the todays fad is one design then all the others will suffer, until something else wins. So, the succesfull supplier has a large backlog, to meet the demand the production is sub-contracted. Now the quality goes down the toilet. Everybody now buys a different airplane and the whole merry cycle starts all over again.

Ed S

splatt

composites , shumposites ... You need know somebody who know somebody to get in line for one of the precious few fast planes that are out there. It's big turn off for me. Of course the way I'm going through planes this year it's all a wash for me. Good luck to all that can get the good stuff

SSAN

Ed,

I agree with you totally. However, I'm doing this as a hobby and will do this on my spare time to compensate for my own racing cost. Granted, if no one buy it, I would have unlimited resource for my own personal use.

One other thing... I take this as a challenge to build the best Quickie that I can within the rules allow, and be proud of the accomplishment if things works out. Nothing more and nothing less!

colesifer3d314

My Feedback: (9)

u know sammy, if u give me a fuse, tail, and wing, i can get the cordinates for u real fast...i have all the right equipment to do this with a quikness at my machine shop class...if u give them to me at the race this weekend i could prolly fax u the specs for the fuse, tail, and wing in about another few days...give me a call and we can discuss it.

Cole

daven

My Feedback: (1)

Anyone can order the good stuff.

Lyle, Terrence, Chuck, and Darroll are all approachable and extremely friendly.

You may have to wait 6 months, but anyone can order them. You just gotta look out a bit, and hope you need the plane when its ready.

I'm hoping to have wings molds made this summer for the Seeker. Not so much to sell, but to assure that I have a decent source for wings going forward that I can hopefully save a little money on by building them myself.

Dave

garys

Dave is right, the manufactures are all very helpful.

The biggest problem with composite airplane supply is that they can only be produced so fast. You can only build two wings per week out of a mold (at the most), assuming you're going to work on them every day. With the unpredictability of airplanes staying competitive, it's hard for the manufacturer's to justify multiple sets of molds. Now take what happens if an airplane wins a major event--Suddenly they get orders for 15-20 more airplanes, and are now backed up for almost three months. At one time, Terrence had a back-log of close to forty Neme-Q's....

Gary Schmidt

PylonWorld

One thing that has hurt the production of composites is the "no composites" rules that many groups have implemented. When you are limited to selling only to the 428 audience, some of the above comments apply.

But there are composites out there that aren't produced simply because a certain design is currently the 428 favorite. One that was shown on the NMPRA site had a decent price. I think it was Marty Hoppe's.

The price for a Shotgun is nice, and I'm sure it would be a great 424 plane.

I engineered the Smasher for mass production. The fuselage and tail molds were done sometime around a year ago. But I wanted to make male molds so that I can produce additional molds for myself or for production. I've partially completed the male molds.

I built the Smasher for myself. So that I can have the airplanes at a reasonable cost. The original plan was for it to also be produced in China. But with the "no composites" rules in effect, I haven't been exactly motivated to get it to China and into production.

Ironically, composites are flourishing in IMAC and other disciplines that didn't come up with "No composites" rules. A lot of composites are flown as sport planes.

The only reason that composites may have driven away some racers earlier was that some people were lucky to have them as ARFs. There were no Predators or Viper 500's at that time. It is time to drop the "no composites" rules and allow people to use whatever meets the Quickie airframe rules.

DHG

My Feedback: (7)

When you spend $7500 for a CNC-machined aluminum wing mold, what are you getting for your money? A highly accurate, mirror-finished cavity in which to lay up pre-formed, epoxy/glass-coated wing skins, then press them together over a spar structure using epoxy paste as an adhesive. Right so far?

It seems to me you could get basically the same result using CNC-cut foam, faced with Mylar.

The airfoil-shaped foam "core" cut out of the middle of the foam block would not actually become part of the wing, but could be faced with Mylar and used as a press (with the help of vacuum bag pressure) to force the upper and lower wing skins against the inside of the cavity until the epoxy/glass skin coating cured. After that you'd simply open the vacuum bag, pop your pre-formed skins out, remove the core/press thingie, and insert your spars and internal structure. Weight it down with bricks until the epoxy paste cures, and you're done.

I used a similar process on some Stinger wings, but because of the compound curves I couldn't use Mylar. On a Q500, however, you wouldn't have that problem. The constant-chord wing should make this process a snap. If the Mylar gets grubby after a while, just cut a new piece and replace it.

The first person to try this, please let me know how it works. Then send me half of the $7500 I just saved you.

garys

Don,

I've said this before, and I will always say, composite Q500's hurt the APRA class in the mid 90's, until they were outlawed. Mike DelPonte sold hundreds of his Revlutions in an ARC form, and a lot of them as full blown ARFs for about $400 each, even for APRA. People didn't complain or quit racing then because they knew they could build an equal airplane themselves for much less. When the composite airplanes showed up and were winning (even for essentially the same price as DelPonte's), people started *****ing. They didn't care when the $400 dollar airplane (that was built like their home brewed airplane) won, but they *****ed when they saw the $425 V-Max win, because didn't have the skill or equipment to make their own molded airplane.

It has been said numerous times that if the reported $200 molded Q500 comes along, it would be allowed into APRA. Just remember though, if the price were to get elevated to where people start *****ing about it, the rule can be changed just as easily as it was added. That's the biggest reason I feel that the 424 level classes shouldn't have to be exactly by the AMA book. The AMA rules are just way to difficult to get changed if a problem of any kind arises. The three year rules cycle is too long. If you plan on keeping it at $200, please do everything you can to make it happen!

Yes, you see a lot of composites showing up in other events. The only thing is, what's the average life span of a glider, IMAC, pattern, or sport plane, versus a Q500? I think it's easy to justify paying twice as much for a composite airplane when you know it has a good chance of lasting a full season or more. How many people get racers expecting them to last that long?

Duane,
Actually Kevin and Chris Callow (current F3D World Champs) made a few wings like that back in the late 90's. They were good, but still not as accurate as a wing built from a true mold, and still needed a lot of work to finish (tips, etc). The way the current molded airplanes are made, you have very little finish work to do once they are pulled from the mold.

Sam,
Nothing says you must have machined molds. The V-max was made from conventional fiberglass molds. There are several places you can get molds, and even plugs made, for several times less than machined molds.

Incidently, as Randy said, Tim Lawlor is looking to sell his molds. I think the V-Max is probably as good as any other plane out there, and better than most, it just hasn't been flown by as many people the last few years. If somebody wanted a set of molds for themselves, or to produce, there's a proven airplane ready to be reintroduced...

Gary Schmidt

bl10

Don:

Gary is exactly right about the effect composite airframes had on sport (APRA) quickee. If we hadn’t passed the no composite rule I believe APRA racing on the west coast would be dead now. With the introduction of composite planes we saw APRA entries go from 20 to 3 in the space of 3 years. With no composites entries are once again at the 15 to 20 level. Like Gary I would probably support a $200.00 multi color composite ARF quickee in APRA if it were available. You cannot compare IMAC to sports quickee. I would venture a guess that if the IMAC guys went through as many airplanes as racers do they would think twice about the cost. There is, of course, no one stopping you from setting up your own racing series permitting composites in sport quickee.

Tony showed me the Smasher fuse at the PHX. It looked good. I’ll be first in line to buy a painted composite arf for $200.00 as long as it is built to the same standards as a Vortex or Nemq.

Barry

PylonWorld

Barry and Gary,

I believe you probably are correct about the composites rules in earlier times.

But now people are building woodies with the same features that make the composites appear to be superior.

Lee Ulinger is building the Force with skinned hinges. Sure he raised the price , but from what I've heard, they are comparable to an all molded composite. And they are legal for 424 or APRA.

Bill Vargas and Dave Norman have documented how to do gapless hinges along with other techniques that people can use that provide aerodynamic advantages over the techniques used on the current ARF Quickies.

I will say that we may not have the current crop of ARF and kit options that we have today had the composites been allowed. So maybe we are better off with the actions you guys took.

All I am saying is that perhaps it is worth looking at the changes that have occurred in the past few years.

In terms of the IMAC planes, depending on the size, they are up there in price. But you are correct that they are expected to live longer.

Many more people have learned the techniques needed for composite construction. Plus there are Russian and former Soviet Union countries producing impressive quality products.


Barry,

I don't think that a $200 composite Quickie ARF should be expected to have the same quality as a Vortex or NEME-Q. I think a $200 composite Quickie that is superior to the current $110 ARF Quickies should be a welcome addition. Let's hope that it does happen, regardless of who does it.

daven

My Feedback: (1)

I really think $200 or even $250 is the magic number.

I have seen the Kangke F3d plane that looks so much like a Q40. It is not perfect but at $159 it shows that the concept is valid.

Composites would be embraced if the cost could be kept down. The NCPL institued a $200 purchase rule as opposed to the "no composite" rule. This is a MUCH better rule in my opinion.

It is just too easy to midair, crash, or tap on take off to justify the expense of the more expensive Q500s out there. I love my Seeker Kits, but I still don't think I can build them to be as fast as a Neme or Vortex. I am about 3-5 mph off, and am not sure if it is even realistic I can get them faster without the precision of CNC molded wings.

I flew a V-max last year for the first time, and was amazed at how well and fast it flew. I know Tim is not actively selling these, but it is a competitive airframe. I did not know Tims molds were built conventionally without the CNC cutting process. My seeker wing molds will also be made with a conventional mold to help keep costs down. I hope we can keep the plug as straight and true as the V-max.

garys

Dave,
The speed difference you've seen between your Seeker and the Vortex or Neme-Q may be because the latter have molded wings. Keep working on it and you'll find the speed, even without a molded wing. To this day, my best times and fastest radared speeds were with a monokoted wood/foam Quik-V5. The really ironic thing about that airplane was the wing had a twist in it, and I cut the trailing edge of the wing, past the aileron on one side, and bent it up about a sixteenth of an inch. I still wonder what it could've done if it was straight!
GS

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Duane,


I recently acquired a CNC foam cutter for some UAV projects, so my mind has been thinking about this issue. Alas, time just isn't there right now to experiment! Maybe this summer. Tell you what though, the CNC cutter makes things too easy. Select the airfoil, a few sizes, insert foam, and cut...

Anyways, I think the described method is very much viable for constant chord wings and I have seen some do it this way. The only issue is the wingtips, but those could be molded and glued on afterwards. The issue you will face with this method is the seam at the trailing edge and leading edge. The TE might be hard to get sharp and the LE needs a good bond. There are some sign foams that are 20lb density and would be good candidates for the beds. Essentially, one would end up with their own mold. It's almost possible to coat the foam with a resin, sand, and not even need mylar. The wing could be joined in the beds. Poor man's mold.


Michael

Ed Smith

From Dave,

Dave, I have a constant source of supply for wings for both Quicky and Q40. Home Depot stores them for me along with my pushrods!. I just have to remove the scrap.

Ed S

Lewis S.

My Feedback: (229)

Hi Dave,
I really think your Seeker is top notch and if you keep working on it, speed will come. Your parts for the laser cut fuselage is great, and for someone looking for a less expensive, but competitive plane, it is a great choice. Bills wings are also a perfect choice for it.

Don,
As far as the Smasher goes, I still think you should move along with it. At this point you have so much time invested, I think you should see it through to the end


As for myself, I am going to have my two planes back out later this summer and hope to have some flying at the NATS. I have been lucky enough to be able to draw on the knowledge of someone who knows far more than I do when it comes to airframes and airfoils to check on my ideas. There are airfoils out there that are not hard to build conventionally that will work very well. My goals are to put out the kits in the $70 range that will yield a competitive plane that can be built by the average builder. We will have to wait and see. Being a father of 3 kids, married, and owning a house has forced me to look for less expensive alternatives so I can race and be competitive.



Lewis

DMyer

My Feedback: (2)

Composites.... I loath Q-500 composites. They are wonderfull technological works... but they have no business at the local level. They are killing local 428... a slow... chonic disease death. We used to have 15-25 428 entries every race prior to the introduction of the composites. In comparison we only had a handfull of 424 entries. Now that is reversed... we have 20+ 424 entries every race and only a 7-15 428 entries(usually towards the lower end). I don't know about anyone else... but it is simply un-interesting racing with such few entries in the matrix. With the current rules... 428 could be virtually dead at the local level in the not so distant future just like 422. If that is what people want... fine... go to the NATS and the JR races and race those pretty composites because that will be the only place to find a race. Without a healthy active local 428 competition does anyone want to speculate on the long term future of 428 and 422? Just MHO.

Dan

SSAN

Dave,

Don't lose confidence in yourself. There are a lot of improvement to be made and you just have to experiment to find it. There's no rules or laws of physic that said, the Vortex or Neme-Q can not be beat. The reasons you can not build yours as fast now is because you have not find the right combination yet. I know Bill's wing is good, but a lot of improvement can still be made to it to go even faster, especially with good combination of fuselage and tail. You just have to work with Bill on it. Pushing the limit is the only ways to find out!

Look at Indy Car or Formula One racing. They are always improving the design every year to go faster. The engineering people there seem to always find ways to get better. Granted, they are at the pinnacle level, but it takes the same engineering design aspect and perspective.
So to say it's unrealistic, I think you just gave up. Bad Dave, bad Dave, bad Dave... [sm=idea.gif]

When I started designing the SAM-RAI, my intention was not only to build the fastest wood quickie, but it was also to be able to compete directly with the composites as well. I knew ahead that it would be tough because composite planes are much cleaner, but that doesn't stop me from trying. All I can say so far is, its been very positive to say the least. In reference to Randy B. statement, there's more than one way to skin a cat, so there's more than one way to build a fast plane. GIVING UP IS NOT AN OPTION! [>:]
Otherwise, you fall into the category of... IF YOU'RE NOT MOVING FORWARD, YOU'RE GOING BACKWARD!

SSAN

Gary,

I will talk to you about it when I see you.

Thanks!

SSAN

Duane,

The $7500 was for a complete CNC Aluminum mold, which includes wing, tail and fuselage, but I still think is quite steep though.
What I'm after is quality and precision and that's why I want it CNC done, but I never thought it would cost that much.[sm=eek.gif]

daven

My Feedback: (1)

Good points Sam. I'll not give up so quickly. My point was primarily that the current design is about as fast as it will go without making any changes. I would like to sell a few of these at some point, and if you keep changing the design, it is difficult to sell them.

I still have not given up on the Turbolators and hope to do a bit of experimenting with them this summer.

I will also be looking at different tail designs / airfoils to see If I can gain anything there.

Dan makes very valid points in regards to the high cost of composites slowly killing 428 on a local level. We have seen some of that here locally also.

Once again, I think the distinction should be made between composites and cost. Its not that that composites are causing it, it is the HIGH cost of the current competitive planes. If a competitive, lower cost, Asian built composite was available, I think that would have a HUGE impact on local 428. Very similar to the upswing many of us have seen with local 424 due to the $110 Arfs.