Notices
Q-500 Racing Discuss AMA 428, AMA 424, and any other variants of Quickie 500 racing

O.S. .46 AX Shims

Old 01-06-2005, 10:57 PM
  #1  
daven
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default O.S. .46 AX Shims

If anyone is interested, I will have some extra O.S. .46 AX head and Sleeve Shims at the NCPL meeting on Saturday for a nominal fee. I have them in both .002 and .004 thicknesses for both the head and sleeve. Due to the locator pin for the sleeve, you will need to slightly notch the sleeve shim to fit (trust me, this is not a big deal). The head shims are a perfect fit.

I have not tried messing with the sleeve height on this engine, but when I look at the exhaust port, it seems to sit very low in the exhaust opening. Not sure if it would help to raise it, but wouldn't hurt to experiment.

The shims aren't free, but I'm not going to profit by this either. They are laser cut, and turned out very good.

Thanks A.J.
Old 01-06-2005, 11:05 PM
  #2  
Bill Vargas
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Apple Valley, CA
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Hmmmmmmmm, very interesting Dave!

I need some .001's for nelsons,,, can that be done also as well?



BV
Old 01-06-2005, 11:21 PM
  #3  
daven
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I'm sure they can be Bill.

This is not my source, A.J. had them cut for me.

They turned out very nice.
Old 01-07-2005, 07:42 AM
  #4  
crashinmike
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Avon, CT
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Hi Dave,
I read your post here about the shims and the sleeve pin. I sent my engine the Lewis at LCS to get the sleeve hard chromed and he removed the pin for me. Not sure how he did it, but I am sure he would tell you if you ask. You had the shims made? Would you sell any? I found sims that fit, but I could only get them in .003" both liner and head. What are you setting the deck hieght at? Are you running the stock muffler or something else. I have mine in an old Black Jack with a jett q-500 muffler. Goes good!


By the way I love all of these posts and the bench racing was fun to read

Crashin Mike
Old 01-07-2005, 09:13 AM
  #5  
daven
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Bench racing is what we do best in Minnesota when its too cold to fly.

I only had 10 shims of each type and thickness (40 total) cut. We use this engine to race locally, and have found that the stock head spacing is a little high. It comes with a .008 shim under the head, and dropping it to .004 or .005 has shown some improvement with the stock muffler. Not sure with the Jett pipe.

I thought I would get extra to help out the locals, not really interested in shipping any. Maybe A.J. can pipe in with his source, and you can order them from there.

I'm not sure I would remove the locator pin, it is helpfull in keeping the sleeve in place when installing the head. It would be simple to dremel it off if you were carefull. However, that mod would probably take away the "stock" classification of the engine for our racing class.
Old 01-07-2005, 09:23 AM
  #6  
diggs_74
Senior Member
 
diggs_74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Emerald, WI
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I would guess that if you wanted to get technical changing the stock shim already negates the "stock" portion of the rules.....

I'd be interested in a couple if you have any left. I haven't even run my new AX yet, might as well tighten it up a bit first.
Old 01-07-2005, 10:39 AM
  #7  
splatt
Senior Member
 
splatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: splattsville, MN,
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

ORIGINAL: diggs_74

I would guess that if you wanted to get technical changing the stock shim already negates the "stock" portion of the rules.....

I'd have to agree on that part , I wished we could leave the motors alone, but what to do ? One problem I see with Daven pushing the envelope is the perception that I need to "blue print" my "stock" motor. I need to have gap-less hindges, I need to have secert propellors,create exotic airfoils, and run on the same channel as all the good guys to get anywhere in our club racing.

But it is perception, Phil Z showed us he can do it with a Predator. Then again Phil's cut or win style of flying carried him this year.

I try not to be against change, but "if " we want to have club racing that's low key, the type that attracts newbie's than we can't set the bar so high. Or simply come out and say that our club racing is what it is and run with it. I'll try my best
Old 01-07-2005, 02:37 PM
  #8  
aseaholm
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
aseaholm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rapid City, SD
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

No problem Dave, anything to help out the MN crew. Although, it's beginning to sound like it may not have helped that much.

I have been using a local laser cutting vendor for our combat kits. The prices aren't rock bottom but they do exceptional work. I had bought material for Lyle and the FAI Team to cut shims for their MBProfi motors. I told Dave about it, he wondered if I could cut AX shims, I had the material and the vendor said no problem.

I also met with a new vendor on Wed. that has a big high speed mill with a 5' x 9' bed. He said he could shim stock as well and at much faster pace, which would be cheaper.

Anyway, I never really intended to get into the shim business, but I'm all for helping out my fellow racers.

Just shoot me an e-mail if there is something you need.

[email protected]
Old 01-07-2005, 02:47 PM
  #9  
Randy Etken
Senior Member
My Feedback: (10)
 
Randy Etken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Shakopee, MN
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Plugs, bearings and shims have alway been changeable in AMA rules and still keeps eng. stock.
Old 01-07-2005, 02:57 PM
  #10  
splatt
Senior Member
 
splatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: splattsville, MN,
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I'm talkin' club racing. Not ama 428, not 424. Club racing, like I said no big deal. It's that to new people coming in or people who race on a budget won't if they feel they need ceramic bearings and shimmed jugs
Old 01-07-2005, 03:36 PM
  #11  
diggs_74
Senior Member
 
diggs_74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Emerald, WI
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I imagine all this will be discussed tomorrow.... Looks like it will be nice, maybe I'll just show up to get my R200 and then go out to the field and fly....
Old 01-07-2005, 03:40 PM
  #12  
splatt
Senior Member
 
splatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: splattsville, MN,
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Then I put this to our top runners: do you folks run "box stock" with "stock bearings" ?
Old 01-07-2005, 03:54 PM
  #13  
diggs_74
Senior Member
 
diggs_74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Emerald, WI
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I sure do..... Oh, top runners.... Never mind
Old 01-07-2005, 04:59 PM
  #14  
daven
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I had to change the bearings on my OS AX because the stock ones rusted out almost immediately. I didn't get anything exotic, just another set of the o.s. and made sure that I kept them oiled a little better (you could get away without oiling an FX all summer).

I tried ceramic bearings in a nelson a few years ago, and basically it was a waste of money. I don't think we run them hot enough, or at high enough RPM for them to really make a difference. At least I didn't see it to justify the expense.

Shims have always been legal to play with in club racing. We played with the FX for a couple years and found that everything you did, really didn't improve anything. The AX does seem to like the head lowered slightly. I don't know of a shim readily available for the AX, so I thought I'd share my source. I remember a race this year where a member cut the heck out of his thumb trying to trim down another shim to fit the AX.

As too blueprinting an OS, that is something I have NEVER done. I will trade parts on Nelsons, but never felt it was necessary for club racing.

See ya tommorrow, I'm normally very excited about these meetings, but not about tommorrows. I just want to go have lunch and a few "adult beverages" with my friends, but it sounds like a lot of people want to change something that is not broken with a bunch of liberal rules that really won't solve anything. The best will still win!

I keep hearing this alleged beef about "hard" wings. What the hell is this? If I look at the winners from last year, there was not a "hard" wing winner in the bunch, just a bunch with composite tails and fiberglass fuses.
Old 01-07-2005, 05:54 PM
  #15  
splatt
Senior Member
 
splatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: splattsville, MN,
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I hope to do the same without labeling ideas. I myself desire no change, just another year. But I was hoping for news about Elbow Lake or some Q40 somewhere.
Old 01-07-2005, 05:54 PM
  #16  
Ed Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

"BLUEPRINTING" I love that expression. I have never seen a set of engine manufacturers blueprints for the engines they manufacture. Do they ever supply them with the purchased engine?

'BLUEPRINTING" is a cop-out word for CHEATING that CHEATERS use when they modify an engine and it is illegal!

Ed S
Old 01-07-2005, 07:08 PM
  #17  
daven
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I think the blueprinting that was mentioned was in reference to swapping out parts from one engine to another for the best fit. I would not call this cheating, if the parts were all stock parts. Never tried it with an O.S., but have swapped heads, pistons, and cranks in a nelson. You would be suprised by the difference this makes if you find the right combination.

Takes some time and practice, but not cheating by any means.
Old 01-07-2005, 07:29 PM
  #18  
diggs_74
Senior Member
 
diggs_74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Emerald, WI
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Ed, I think your definition of "blueprinting" is off a little as far as engines go. When someone talks about blueprinting an engine (of any kind car, boat, plane) it simply means to return to the specified measurements for the engine when it was manufactured. When someone says they built up an engine for a hot rod and states the engine was balanced and "blueprinted", that's when people are blowing smoke... Since you have to add/remove material to balance an engine it is no longer at the measurements it was at when new.

If your OS or Nelson or whatever is "blueprinted" then it's as stock as it will ever be, and after 2 races it's not "blueprinted" anymore just because of wear and tear.

Just the .02 worth of a guy who wasn't always a computer geek.
Old 01-07-2005, 08:24 PM
  #19  
garys
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Stansbury Park, UT
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I know it's your local class, so the powers that be with that class can do what you want with the rules, but personally I'd draw the line at adding anything not otherwise available from the manufacturer. I've never seen any sleeve shims from OS.
GS
Old 01-07-2005, 08:45 PM
  #20  
Conrod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Palmerston North, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 290
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Hi
Do you guy's remove the muffler baffle in the AX?
Geoff
Old 01-07-2005, 09:00 PM
  #21  
Lewis S.
My Feedback: (229)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Melville, NY
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

Hi Dave,
Heard about this thread and wanted to take a peak. Since it is a local event and if you guys all agree with what is going on , so be it. Personally for a 424 event I really don't know that shims are good or bad as long as everyone has access to them. The intent of 424 is and always has been that it could be used as a stepping stone to 428. Well since you have to know how shims work when you run a Nelson or Jett, maybe it is not a bad idea to let guys play with shims in the 424. They have to learn somewhere. I would just want to make sure the everyone has equal access to them as I said earlier.
Now as far as blue printing goes, as long as they are UNMODIFIED FACTORY ORIGINAL parts , have at it. I can tell you when I built the K&B 4011 eninges, just by swaping parts you could go from a 15,300 K&B to a 16,200 K&B on a 9-6. What do you think Clarence Lee does? Just my 2 cents.

Lewis
Old 01-07-2005, 09:52 PM
  #22  
daven
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

To call our local class 424 is not really true. We run .46 engines with any prop, on the short course.

If anything, I would call it 426.

Our rules allow the change out of bearings and shims. Also, the baffle can be removed. Shims can be made by hand, or trimmed from a stock nelson shim.

I try to help out the locals by giving them access, and all I get is flack. It would be different if our rules didn't allow this, but they do.
Old 01-07-2005, 10:11 PM
  #23  
diggs_74
Senior Member
 
diggs_74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Emerald, WI
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I wasn't saying that it was illegal, I was just being a smart ***** with the whole "stock" thing... If I thought it was illegal I wouldn't have asked if you had any left, well at least not here for all to see
Old 01-07-2005, 11:33 PM
  #24  
splatt
Senior Member
 
splatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: splattsville, MN,
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

It's spelled flak [X(] and I glad to get input from all of you, especially from the outside world. An open dialog is a wonderful thing. I can't learn without it.

We do have a very good thing going here in our class of racing. It's just our silly season. When pushing the envelope your bound to raise questions and issues. I just like to have it all in the open. My goal is to create conversation, not animosity I apologize...

When it comes down to it your right dave, the best will win most all the time. If you put in the effort, do the time and show up on race day good things will happen. I look to people in my club for inspiration and competition, but I'll add my 2 cents worth too when I see questions that need to be asked. [&:]

Now back to bench racing !!

I wonder if the neighbors think I'm weriod flying my electric under the street light , let's find out[8D]
Old 01-07-2005, 11:57 PM
  #25  
bl10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chatsworth, CA,
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: O.S. .46 AX Shims

I will reread the AMA 424 / 428 rules again but I think it says “Gaskets” not “Shims”. In APRA we interpret that as any head gasket because the engines we run already have head gaskets / shims. They do not, however, have sleeve shims or gaskets and therefore based on the AMA rules any engine found with sleeve shims would be judged illegal. But as Dave says it’s a club race and anything you guys agree on is ok. Just for my own info do you guys who race sports 46 size engines with props other then 9x6 get a variance on your AMA sanction. There is no 3 pole course for engines larger than 40 and the 2 pole course is considerably longer for engines above 40.


Barry

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.