Notices
Q-500 Racing Discuss AMA 428, AMA 424, and any other variants of Quickie 500 racing

Highwing or Lowwing?

Old 11-12-2002, 07:46 PM
  #1  
Per_N
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Per_N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Stockholm, SWEDEN
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Hi
I have heard that a Q500 with high wing is faster than one with a low wing, and also that Vtail is faster than the conventional one.

What is your opinion?

Old 11-12-2002, 09:22 PM
  #2  
R.Bridge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

High wing V-tail is the obvious choice of many (at least in the 428 class). I think Jim Allen is responsible for the type Q500 we all fly today. As many things though, there is more than one way to skin a cat... Racing is fun, do what makes you happy.. build one of each..

RB
Old 11-12-2002, 10:31 PM
  #3  
splatt
Senior Member
 
splatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: splattsville, MN,
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default high wing, vtail

I 've watched quickies go around pylon 1, watching from under the pylon. My observation is that the v-tailed plane will scribe a nice arc , while a conventional tail will skid around the corner. When the model is "skidding" around the corner the angle of attack the wing takes will cause drag.
At least that my thought, then theres the argument that everyone else who wins is flying them. So take it for what it's worth. Good luck
Old 11-12-2002, 10:37 PM
  #4  
R.Bridge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

We never did much testing with this, but recently Mr. Vortex built me a low wing v-tail..... it was not the answer by any means, took off bad, flew bad and landed bad...

but that could be due to the wing not being suitable for low wing version aircraft.......

RB
Old 11-12-2002, 11:42 PM
  #5  
Tom02
Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Low-wing's really aren't that popular today, why b/c the people who win are flying high-wing v-tail composites so everyone thinks that that is the winning combination (2000-2002 a Vortex wins the Nats), it may be, it may not be. But if 90% of the competition was flying a high-wing composite, probability says that it's most likely to win. At the Nats I saw low-wing standard tail woodies do quite well, be it as it may only two people were flying them, and neither one made the cut, but I saw them beat the hell out of Neme-Q's, BOP's, and Vortex's. Not to mention Marcus's only loss in the qualifying session was to a GI8U2. I believe the 99 Nats was won by a low-wing v-tail, the intimadator, I might be wrong. It's not that that high-wing V-tails are any better, I personally hate V-tails, I think they're more draggy then people make them out to be, but to explain that I'd have to go into a whole a lot of math. I don't think high-wing v-tails are any better, I just think they are what the market tolerates.
Old 11-12-2002, 11:47 PM
  #6  
R.Bridge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Tom,

What's a GI8U2 ??


Randy
Old 11-12-2002, 11:50 PM
  #7  
Tom02
Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Randy,

A GI8U2 is a low-wing standard tail balsa and foam quickie, if you look in this month AMA mag you'll see a pic of them with the two flyers.

Tom
Old 11-13-2002, 12:10 AM
  #8  
R.Bridge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Cool, thanks....

Randy
Old 11-13-2002, 12:11 AM
  #9  
Tom02
Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

No problem
Old 11-13-2002, 03:41 PM
  #10  
daven
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

The GI8U2 is the plane that the Baker's fly.

Here is their website:

http://www.geocities.com/gi8u2racing/index.html
Old 11-13-2002, 09:26 PM
  #11  
DMyer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Potomac, MD
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

The many versions of the low wing(and some high wing) conventional tailed planes Steve Baker builds for him and Jon are just as fast as anything else out there... the stop watch proves it time and time again at our local races. The only real difference is the pilot on any given day that flies best with the best luck and fewest brain farts.
Old 11-14-2002, 12:06 AM
  #12  
MikeyD
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Wait low wing Vortex??

Randy Bridge
You mentioned a low wing Vortex?? Was this with the famous Vortex wing? The big question if so. Did it have any dihederal?

Thanks
Mikey D
Old 11-14-2002, 12:23 AM
  #13  
R.Bridge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Hey Mikey!

No dihederal. It was the same wing we use on the high-wing Vortex. Dihederal is most likely what it needed. The airplane trimmed out perfectly (thanks dad). But on take off, you had to use high-rate elevator. On low rate it would just run along the ground for about 50 feet before getting airborne.

Flying it was another story. I could never get it to feel comfortable through the corners. It would pitch down then pitch up, just didn't want to remain stable. Keeping in mind that the wing and tail were the same as the normal Vortex.

Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained...

Randy
Old 11-14-2002, 02:16 PM
  #14  
kane
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arlington Heights, IL
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Since we are on the low wing subject!!!!

I flew a low wing conventional tail airplane for many years, it was my variation of the DoddGer, (which was very competitive). Every version I built I put in ZERO dihedral. My wings were flat and the airplane grooved much better. Dihedral causes the airplane to roll flat.

The biggest difference I noticed with a high wing V-tail is the way the airplane lands, (they are not really high wing airplanes they are more shoulder wing airplanes). Take off: depending on the amount of rudder you have on your V-tail it could cause the airplane to balloon on take-off. If you are experience this condition try reducing the rudder throw. Also, on landing if the gear is in the fuse rather than the wing you tend to do less damage to the all important wing when you have a rough landing (another plus for the high wing V-Tail). As far as take off with a low wing, I never noticed any difference (other than too much rudder syndrome on my V-tail), we fly low wing QM-40's all the time and don't see any problems, a quickee shouldn't be any different. I don't have much experience with the Low wing/V-tail configuration so I don't want to comment on that.

Why do the Vortex and molded composite airplanes go so fast??
It has alot to do with airfoils and the surface quality of the wings. NOT TO MENTION THE GUYS MOVING THE STICKS!!! Because the airplanes are molded, the trim factor is also minimal. A straight airplane that flies good is always faster.

So what is better??? I honestly believe that you can have a conventional airplane set up correctly be just as competitive as a high wing V-Tail. Just because I made that statement doesn't mean I am going to crack out the drawings of my old low wing airplane and fly it. I like the way the high wing V-Tail's fly and will continue to fly them.

Dan
Old 11-15-2002, 10:35 PM
  #15  
gi8u2racing
My Feedback: (11)
 
gi8u2racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bowie, MD
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Low wings

first off, neither high wing or low wing is actually better. Both have been proven to work. I am Jonathan Baker, the one Tom02 was referring to. I beat every composite plane, and beat very good pilots (Vern Smith, Marcus Blanchard, Darrol Cady x 2, etc.).
The GI8U2 that my father and i designed is obviously unique. Here were our thoughts...
1. a conventional tail is easier to get straight in the airplane, whereas most v-tails are super hard to get straight. My friend owns a BOP, which as many of you know has a very simple method of installing the tail straight. When it was done, it had a lot of positive in the tail, so even the latest technology isn't foolproof
2. a conventional tail provides a "truer" input. By this, i mean that when you pull up on a conventional tail, 100% of the surface travel goes into pushing the tail down, and therefore making it turn. On a V-tail, (Deflection) x cos(35º) goes into making the plane go up. This means that there is a counteractive yaw input. This means that more deflection is needed to have the plane turn, which is drag.
3. low wings benefit from ground lift on takeoff and landing which means shorter takeoffs and easier landings
i will talk later some more...
Old 11-15-2002, 11:10 PM
  #16  
R.Bridge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Jonathan,

you are the proof that we need to help the rest of the country understand that one can be competitive with a wood/foam quickee.. thanks for speaking up man!

One of these days you'll have to explain what the "cos (-35 deg)" means.. that gives me a brain cramp..

And go smack that DC Sniper dude for me.......

Randy Bridge
Old 11-16-2002, 12:29 AM
  #17  
vector-RCU
Member
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melville, NY,
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default hig or low wing

Hi Guys,
You know it is really funny reading all of the High vs Low wing stuff. Basically any clean, straight design you can fly comfortably will go fast. If it fits like and old shoe, and has the horsepower, it can win in the right hands.
A few really good friends of mine are in the aerospace industry and are fellow modelers. Two are quite respected airframe drone engineers. They have said time and time again, take care of the little draggy things on the plane, linkages, antenna etc and make sure the plane is a rigid as possible.
I bet you will find planes like the Vortex and the ones like the Bakers have come up with are just that, straight and rigid. I bet the fuselage thread on here could shed a lot of light on what goes fast.


Lewis
Old 11-16-2002, 12:30 AM
  #18  
Ed Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Jonathan does not wish to give away secrets. He is talking in code.

What on earth is a "BOP"?.......Please, Plase no musical jokes!

Ed S
Old 11-16-2002, 12:36 AM
  #19  
vector-RCU
Member
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melville, NY,
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default I know , I know !!!!

I bet BOP is short for Bird of ........ Just a guess, going by his post. I know someone who also had the same problem.



Lewis
Old 11-16-2002, 01:47 AM
  #20  
gi8u2racing
My Feedback: (11)
 
gi8u2racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bowie, MD
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Ed-
BOP stands for Bird of Prey. sorry

Randy (and anyone else who didn't know what i was talking about)-
I put an explanation of my "cos(35º)" on my webpage. i actually meant to say sin(55º), but they actually equal the same. my site is:
http://www.geocities.com/gi8u2racing/index.html

the other thing i noticed is that when you get talking to people, everyone says they want an original plane. They are tired of looking at these high-winged v-tailed things that dont even resemble airplanes. We have a few guys in this area that fly them, and these guys have been flying high winged v-tails, but prefer our GI8U2, and are going faster than ever. Many people love the way our plane is unique. I love going to the line, and hearing people say, "don't worry about lane X", the lane i'm in, just because i'm not flying a high winged v-tail. Then they get a big surprise once we're all in the air. Sorry to sound like a salesperson, but we are all on here to learn, right? And i'm just trying to show everyone that this stuff my father and i have developed works just as good as ANYTHING
Old 11-16-2002, 02:25 AM
  #21  
daven
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default GI8U2

Jonathan,

I'd be interested in purchasing one of your kits (if they are for sale).

Could you give us the details on cost, what is included in the kit, level of completion, etc???

Vector (Lewis) has a great point. He mentions straightness and rigidity. Of all the planes I have flown and seen, the Vortex is by far the most rigid of the lot. The fuze and wing are built like a brick sh*t house. They do come in about 3 oz over the minimum weight, but you would never know it.
Old 11-16-2002, 02:40 AM
  #22  
gi8u2racing
My Feedback: (11)
 
gi8u2racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bowie, MD
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default our kits

yes, they are for sale. i just finished updating my site a few minutes ago. Check it out, it should answer many of your questions. Kit price is $125, and includes all hardware, jigged-up fuselage, all the wood needed, and the cores with the landing gear and spar slots.
Old 11-16-2002, 02:42 AM
  #23  
matchlessaero
Senior Member
 
matchlessaero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Cordova, TN
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Nuther factor to figure on....

The most unavoidable part of the flight is the landing. If you can't land smoothly, then chances are you are either going to tear up airframes, motors, or props (or some combination of).
Though some takeoff problems have been mentioned with high wings, from my personal observation, high wings are a little easier to land. Less chance of dragging a tip, and they do not appear to bounce as much. You have a much better chance of doing well, if your equipment makes it to the end of the event unscathed........
Old 11-16-2002, 02:58 AM
  #24  
gi8u2racing
My Feedback: (11)
 
gi8u2racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bowie, MD
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default landings

matchlessaero-
I must say i disagree with you, but i can understand your reasoning...

The older low winged planes (Scat Cat, Doddger) have improper gear placement (they are too far forward), which causes short takeoffs, but bouncy landings.

I wish i owned the technology to record a landing of one of my planes to put on the internet. It is easy as anything. I make my planes stop right at my feet EVERY TIME. We have the gear in the right place to balance out a smooth, non-bouncy landing and a quick takeoff. The ground effect on a low wing is very effective because the wing is lower to the ground, whereas on a high wing, it is not as helpful because of the longer distance between the wing and the ground, which makes landing a low wing much easier.

In reference to our kit, we have worked out a deal with a professional building company to work with us so that customers can get their plane in any stage of completion they wish, and done in a timely manner. Check out my site for more details

I'll have pictures of more shots of GI8U2's as well as pictures of the kit contents by tomorrow night.
Old 11-16-2002, 03:50 AM
  #25  
matchlessaero
Senior Member
 
matchlessaero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Cordova, TN
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Highwing or Lowwing?

Interesting point Johnathan.

Truth be told, have primarily flown the older style planes during my time around the poles. My Pintail design has always utilized widespread fuselage mounted landing gear. With it being a low wing design, the fuselage mounted gear necessitated a 'forward' mounting position. (Axle line on the leading edge)
I personally think my design takes off better than any other I have seen. Unfortunately, It does the bunny hop on landings ....

Your suggestion that the axle line should be moved back does make sense. I have done this on sport designs to good effect. I guess everything is a tradeoff.

Maybe I will try this on the next one I build. (time to open the DXF file and think some more)

BTW, Kudos for putting a Wooden Quickie in the air.

Pic of Pintail with Fuse mounted gear.....
Attached Images  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.