A visit with the Racer 11
11-23-2002, 12:58 AM
#1
A visit with the Racer 11
** Otherwise known as the Naked Racer 11**
Last month I received The latest Racer 11 from Bill Vargas, This one in the most advanced state of completion possible I mean everything was done. didn,t even have to turn a clevis on the pushrods. Unfortunately I had a bad run of flight packs I installed rsulting in radio failure at five feet, the damage was light and repaired without much trouble. So two receivers and a bunch of servos were shipped of to Hitec and new stuff installed. This time it happened agine but on the ground same problem, eratic ailerons. Off goes the Eclipse and out comes one of the Prism's and finally success.
In the last six days have about 18 flights now and I can honestly say this ship is the best woodie I have ever flown. Takeoffs are clean with no need to jump into the air. That type of takeoff has always been my preference, staying low and smooth at the flag while everybody else jumps up steeply trying to avoid each other. At any rate the 11' handles this fine with no special triming. The tracking is excellent with very little dip out on the pull in the vertical. This ship has I beleive a slightly shorter wide cord aileron than my earlier ones and does seem to impart a better roll control than the early ones and not sure why. You can use faster roll rate but still stop it where you want it and smoother.
This is an area the Preditor is weak on, with far to narrow ailerons which always seemed to be over or under applied when trying to hit that perfect roll out.
OK now on to landings and I am sure more races have been won or lost during this phase after the checkered has dropped . By far this is the best landing of any I have flown. With no need to go to higher elevator rate this thing just slows down and floats in 'No Worries' (for some of you who like me that may not be such talented thumbs will know what I mean by that). By the way, roll response remains excellent even slowed way down.
Here are some of the differances I can see from my prior Racer 11's: The Fuselage wide point is at the trailing edge rather than the leading edge which is in keeping with a lot of the current thinking. the airfoil thickest point is considerably aft maybe around 60%. Now I am not about to say this is faster, I,ll leave that to the more talented thumbs and engineers but I will say I think this contributes to in a large degree to the ships pitch stability while maintaining good response. Possibly even contributes to the good landing chacteristics. The tail volume is slightly less than the old ones i.e. tail area is a tad less as well as a bit shorter fuse. I have always been a fan of longer fuse's but perhaps the airfoil is working in concert with the lower tail volume to improve response with out the twitchy reaction.
Now to the down side
There is the slightest hint of a Yaw wiggle on the hard pull from the vertical. It is slight and to be honest the only two ships I have raced that did not do this were the Nemi-Q and Bird of pray (yes that was before it was politically incorrect to race composites in 424/APRA) however it is less than all the other woodies I,ve raced which includes most of the current ones. Now Bill how in heavens name did you ever expect a clutz like me to to stuff servos down that tiny little ol hole behind the wing? 
Well just to show you I suffered through it without cheatin' and making the hole bigger.
The particulars: With three two twenty fives and one HS-81, 555 receiver and a 260 nicad pack weight came in at 3 lb 10 oz. Bill suggested starting CG at 2.5 inches and I like 25/8 just fine.
Throws on elevator 1/8 both ways and aileron 3/16 this on low and set the highs twenty percent higher but have not felt the burning desire to leave the low's even during landing.
Well thats pretty well it. Just want to say for 424 there is no better aircraft out there and this later permutation can make even 'slow sticks' like me look good. That coupled with the low prices of the basic kit (pre sheeted wing of course) makes this ship the most competive one out there in more ways than one!
By the way I,am sure Bill will supply you with one to any degree of completion you want even to the rediculous level of this one.
Whats next? As some who may know me I have had four wonderful years on the various pylons but am now in a wheelchair but never stopped flying and last month was invited to try three pole agine with the Speedworld folks and by golly it worked so in december the club race agine with the 11's this time and in January just maybe the winterfest.
The good old PHX 'Toonerville Trolly' just may make this possible for me.
John
Last month I received The latest Racer 11 from Bill Vargas, This one in the most advanced state of completion possible I mean everything was done. didn,t even have to turn a clevis on the pushrods. Unfortunately I had a bad run of flight packs I installed rsulting in radio failure at five feet, the damage was light and repaired without much trouble. So two receivers and a bunch of servos were shipped of to Hitec and new stuff installed. This time it happened agine but on the ground same problem, eratic ailerons. Off goes the Eclipse and out comes one of the Prism's and finally success.
In the last six days have about 18 flights now and I can honestly say this ship is the best woodie I have ever flown. Takeoffs are clean with no need to jump into the air. That type of takeoff has always been my preference, staying low and smooth at the flag while everybody else jumps up steeply trying to avoid each other. At any rate the 11' handles this fine with no special triming. The tracking is excellent with very little dip out on the pull in the vertical. This ship has I beleive a slightly shorter wide cord aileron than my earlier ones and does seem to impart a better roll control than the early ones and not sure why. You can use faster roll rate but still stop it where you want it and smoother.
This is an area the Preditor is weak on, with far to narrow ailerons which always seemed to be over or under applied when trying to hit that perfect roll out.
OK now on to landings and I am sure more races have been won or lost during this phase after the checkered has dropped . By far this is the best landing of any I have flown. With no need to go to higher elevator rate this thing just slows down and floats in 'No Worries' (for some of you who like me that may not be such talented thumbs will know what I mean by that). By the way, roll response remains excellent even slowed way down.
Here are some of the differances I can see from my prior Racer 11's: The Fuselage wide point is at the trailing edge rather than the leading edge which is in keeping with a lot of the current thinking. the airfoil thickest point is considerably aft maybe around 60%. Now I am not about to say this is faster, I,ll leave that to the more talented thumbs and engineers but I will say I think this contributes to in a large degree to the ships pitch stability while maintaining good response. Possibly even contributes to the good landing chacteristics. The tail volume is slightly less than the old ones i.e. tail area is a tad less as well as a bit shorter fuse. I have always been a fan of longer fuse's but perhaps the airfoil is working in concert with the lower tail volume to improve response with out the twitchy reaction.
Now to the down side
There is the slightest hint of a Yaw wiggle on the hard pull from the vertical. It is slight and to be honest the only two ships I have raced that did not do this were the Nemi-Q and Bird of pray (yes that was before it was politically incorrect to race composites in 424/APRA) however it is less than all the other woodies I,ve raced which includes most of the current ones. Now Bill how in heavens name did you ever expect a clutz like me to to stuff servos down that tiny little ol hole behind the wing? Well just to show you I suffered through it without cheatin' and making the hole bigger. The particulars: With three two twenty fives and one HS-81, 555 receiver and a 260 nicad pack weight came in at 3 lb 10 oz. Bill suggested starting CG at 2.5 inches and I like 25/8 just fine.
Throws on elevator 1/8 both ways and aileron 3/16 this on low and set the highs twenty percent higher but have not felt the burning desire to leave the low's even during landing.
Well thats pretty well it. Just want to say for 424 there is no better aircraft out there and this later permutation can make even 'slow sticks' like me look good. That coupled with the low prices of the basic kit (pre sheeted wing of course) makes this ship the most competive one out there in more ways than one!
By the way I,am sure Bill will supply you with one to any degree of completion you want even to the rediculous level of this one.
Whats next? As some who may know me I have had four wonderful years on the various pylons but am now in a wheelchair but never stopped flying and last month was invited to try three pole agine with the Speedworld folks and by golly it worked so in december the club race agine with the 11's this time and in January just maybe the winterfest.
The good old PHX 'Toonerville Trolly' just may make this possible for me. John
11-23-2002, 03:30 AM
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A "Newbie" Agree's
My enjoyment in the APRA District 1 racing started just 7 months ago and the Racer II has been a integral part of this experience. I purchesed a Racer II 424 kit last February and after four District 1 races, my times and comfort level continue to go in opposite directions(times down and comfort level up). Unlike Mr Buckner(18 flights) I have over 300 flights on my Racer II and it continues to "Bring Home The Wood" in District 1. Slow speed handling characteristics is critical were I fly, because of the narrow(22 ft) runway width and these cement things called curbs take offs and landings can be a challenge. These cement things are very unforgiving to props, mufflers, landing gears, firewalls and lower wing surfaces. Also when you throw in a ever changing crosswind, good low speed flight characteristics is critical. The Racer II has been the most forgiving low speed, high speed and stable airplane I have flown.
By the way Mr Bill V, when are my next 2 Racer II kits going to be ready. I can't wait to incorporate what I have learned the last 7 months into my next RII"s.
MaxQ
By the way Mr Bill V, when are my next 2 Racer II kits going to be ready. I can't wait to incorporate what I have learned the last 7 months into my next RII"s.
MaxQ
11-23-2002, 03:51 AM
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A visit with the Racer 11
Hang on now MaxQ.
Bill still owes me 3 kits and an extra wing for the Minnesota gang. I'm working on a few woodies for our 428 next year, it is becoming politically incorrect to fly a composite locally.
Jon, I hope you can make it to the Winterfest race. I will be there, and would like to meet you.
Make sure you bring one of your U-Control planes. I would love to watch.
Bill still owes me 3 kits and an extra wing for the Minnesota gang. I'm working on a few woodies for our 428 next year, it is becoming politically incorrect to fly a composite locally.
Jon, I hope you can make it to the Winterfest race. I will be there, and would like to meet you.
Make sure you bring one of your U-Control planes. I would love to watch.
11-23-2002, 05:41 AM
#7
A visit with the Racer 11
Wow Max, "cement things called curbs" where are you flying? Thats a new one on me.
Daven I will be at the Winterfest and you have certainly helped me in past particularly in the 'Thread' over at the old RCO, remember the infamous racing thread?
Man now you got me going, OK I,ll bring some Ukie stuff. Haven,t flown any since the chair but we,ll work that out. Tell you what I,ll bring a trainer with an electronic throttle for you to have a go, piece 'o' cake. I sure used to love going down there
and having a few flights in the circle behind the pits after the races.
Now Bill I was once told by an old Guru the the real scratch builder always grew his own Balsa.
John
Daven I will be at the Winterfest and you have certainly helped me in past particularly in the 'Thread' over at the old RCO, remember the infamous racing thread?
Man now you got me going, OK I,ll bring some Ukie stuff. Haven,t flown any since the chair but we,ll work that out. Tell you what I,ll bring a trainer with an electronic throttle for you to have a go, piece 'o' cake. I sure used to love going down there
and having a few flights in the circle behind the pits after the races.
Now Bill I was once told by an old Guru the the real scratch builder always grew his own Balsa.
John
11-23-2002, 04:35 PM
#10
Senior Member
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Re: A visit with the Racer 11
Originally posted by JohnBuckner
** Otherwise known as the Naked Racer 11**
Last month I received The latest Racer 11 from Bill Vargas, This one in the most advanced state of completion possible I mean everything was done. didn,t even have to turn a clevis on the pushrods. Unfortunately I had a bad run of flight packs I installed rsulting in radio failure at five feet, the damage was light and repaired without much trouble. So two receivers and a bunch of servos were shipped of to Hitec and new stuff installed. This time it happened agine but on the ground same problem, eratic ailerons. Off goes the Eclipse and out comes one of the Prism's and finally success.
In the last six days have about 18 flights now and I can honestly say this ship is the best woodie I have ever flown. Takeoffs are clean with no need to jump into the air. That type of takeoff has always been my preference, staying low and smooth at the flag while everybody else jumps up steeply trying to avoid each other. At any rate the 11' handles this fine with no special triming. The tracking is excellent with very little dip out on the pull in the vertical. This ship has I beleive a slightly shorter wide cord aileron than my earlier ones and does seem to impart a better roll control than the early ones and not sure why. You can use faster roll rate but still stop it where you want it and smoother.
This is an area the Preditor is weak on, with far to narrow ailerons which always seemed to be over or under applied when trying to hit that perfect roll out.
OK now on to landings and I am sure more races have been won or lost during this phase after the checkered has dropped . By far this is the best landing of any I have flown. With no need to go to higher elevator rate this thing just slows down and floats in 'No Worries' (for some of you who like me that may not be such talented thumbs will know what I mean by that). By the way, roll response remains excellent even slowed way down.
Here are some of the differances I can see from my prior Racer 11's: The Fuselage wide point is at the trailing edge rather than the leading edge which is in keeping with a lot of the current thinking. the airfoil thickest point is considerably aft maybe around 60%. Now I am not about to say this is faster, I,ll leave that to the more talented thumbs and engineers but I will say I think this contributes to in a large degree to the ships pitch stability while maintaining good response. Possibly even contributes to the good landing chacteristics. The tail volume is slightly less than the old ones i.e. tail area is a tad less as well as a bit shorter fuse. I have always been a fan of longer fuse's but perhaps the airfoil is working in concert with the lower tail volume to improve response with out the twitchy reaction.
Now to the down side There is the slightest hint of a Yaw wiggle on the hard pull from the vertical. It is slight and to be honest the only two ships I have raced that did not do this were the Nemi-Q and Bird of pray (yes that was before it was politically incorrect to race composites in 424/APRA) however it is less than all the other woodies I,ve raced which includes most of the current ones. Now Bill how in heavens name did you ever expect a clutz like me to to stuff servos down that tiny little ol hole behind the wing? Well just to show you I suffered through it without cheatin' and making the hole bigger.
The particulars: With three two twenty fives and one HS-81, 555 receiver and a 260 nicad pack weight came in at 3 lb 10 oz. Bill suggested starting CG at 2.5 inches and I like 25/8 just fine.
Throws on elevator 1/8 both ways and aileron 3/16 this on low and set the highs twenty percent higher but have not felt the burning desire to leave the low's even during landing.
Well thats pretty well it. Just want to say for 424 there is no better aircraft out there and this later permutation can make even 'slow sticks' like me look good. That coupled with the low prices of the basic kit (pre sheeted wing of course) makes this ship the most competive one out there in more ways than one!
By the way I,am sure Bill will supply you with one to any degree of completion you want even to the rediculous level of this one.
Whats next? As some who may know me I have had four wonderful years on the various pylons but am now in a wheelchair but never stopped flying and last month was invited to try three pole agine with the Speedworld folks and by golly it worked so in december the club race agine with the 11's this time and in January just maybe the winterfest. The good old PHX 'Toonerville Trolly' just may make this possible for me.
John
** Otherwise known as the Naked Racer 11**
Last month I received The latest Racer 11 from Bill Vargas, This one in the most advanced state of completion possible I mean everything was done. didn,t even have to turn a clevis on the pushrods. Unfortunately I had a bad run of flight packs I installed rsulting in radio failure at five feet, the damage was light and repaired without much trouble. So two receivers and a bunch of servos were shipped of to Hitec and new stuff installed. This time it happened agine but on the ground same problem, eratic ailerons. Off goes the Eclipse and out comes one of the Prism's and finally success.
In the last six days have about 18 flights now and I can honestly say this ship is the best woodie I have ever flown. Takeoffs are clean with no need to jump into the air. That type of takeoff has always been my preference, staying low and smooth at the flag while everybody else jumps up steeply trying to avoid each other. At any rate the 11' handles this fine with no special triming. The tracking is excellent with very little dip out on the pull in the vertical. This ship has I beleive a slightly shorter wide cord aileron than my earlier ones and does seem to impart a better roll control than the early ones and not sure why. You can use faster roll rate but still stop it where you want it and smoother.
This is an area the Preditor is weak on, with far to narrow ailerons which always seemed to be over or under applied when trying to hit that perfect roll out.
OK now on to landings and I am sure more races have been won or lost during this phase after the checkered has dropped . By far this is the best landing of any I have flown. With no need to go to higher elevator rate this thing just slows down and floats in 'No Worries' (for some of you who like me that may not be such talented thumbs will know what I mean by that). By the way, roll response remains excellent even slowed way down.
Here are some of the differances I can see from my prior Racer 11's: The Fuselage wide point is at the trailing edge rather than the leading edge which is in keeping with a lot of the current thinking. the airfoil thickest point is considerably aft maybe around 60%. Now I am not about to say this is faster, I,ll leave that to the more talented thumbs and engineers but I will say I think this contributes to in a large degree to the ships pitch stability while maintaining good response. Possibly even contributes to the good landing chacteristics. The tail volume is slightly less than the old ones i.e. tail area is a tad less as well as a bit shorter fuse. I have always been a fan of longer fuse's but perhaps the airfoil is working in concert with the lower tail volume to improve response with out the twitchy reaction.
Now to the down side
There is the slightest hint of a Yaw wiggle on the hard pull from the vertical. It is slight and to be honest the only two ships I have raced that did not do this were the Nemi-Q and Bird of pray (yes that was before it was politically incorrect to race composites in 424/APRA) however it is less than all the other woodies I,ve raced which includes most of the current ones. Now Bill how in heavens name did you ever expect a clutz like me to to stuff servos down that tiny little ol hole behind the wing? Well just to show you I suffered through it without cheatin' and making the hole bigger. The particulars: With three two twenty fives and one HS-81, 555 receiver and a 260 nicad pack weight came in at 3 lb 10 oz. Bill suggested starting CG at 2.5 inches and I like 25/8 just fine.
Throws on elevator 1/8 both ways and aileron 3/16 this on low and set the highs twenty percent higher but have not felt the burning desire to leave the low's even during landing.
Well thats pretty well it. Just want to say for 424 there is no better aircraft out there and this later permutation can make even 'slow sticks' like me look good. That coupled with the low prices of the basic kit (pre sheeted wing of course) makes this ship the most competive one out there in more ways than one!
By the way I,am sure Bill will supply you with one to any degree of completion you want even to the rediculous level of this one.
Whats next? As some who may know me I have had four wonderful years on the various pylons but am now in a wheelchair but never stopped flying and last month was invited to try three pole agine with the Speedworld folks and by golly it worked so in december the club race agine with the 11's this time and in January just maybe the winterfest.
The good old PHX 'Toonerville Trolly' just may make this possible for me. John
As for getting them servos to fit thru that little tiny hole,,, Being that I know you use to work on PW4360's, I figured you installing them little servos thru that little hole would be a Breeze
There was one other thing about that Racer II John, did you happen to notice that the inside fuselage sides are glassed from nose to tail? What I did there was to glass the fuselage sides before they were cut out. I layed out the balsa, then layed down the epoxy, then layed down the doubler, a little more epoxy on top of that and finally the glass cloth over the fuselage sides. After that it was to the Vacuum bag with about 25" of mercury for the curing process. After that cooked off, I cut the sides out and built the fuselage
BV
11-23-2002, 07:17 PM
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AMAC
John B. I'm a member of the Ames Model Airplane Club(AMAC). I work(and fly) at NASA Ames Research Center in Mountain View California. A group of 5 to 6 regulars fly off a paved road out in the vast Ames boonies. Great place to practice with out disturbing the sport flyers. A short walk down the road(runway) and I have a private practice field. The curbs and narrow landing area either 1) make you a better pilot or 2) make you a master at fixing dinged up Quickies. I'm tired of # 2 and continue to work on #1.
MaxQ
MaxQ
11-24-2002, 01:25 AM
#12
Enviable
Sounds like an enviable situation for a pylon puppy Max. Probably an abundance of advice on airfoils and such too.
Yes sure did notice inside the fuse Bill, but forgot to mention it and do remember thinking how did he get that in there so nice and neat. But now now you let the cat outta the bag. I sure would not have thought of doing it before the sides were put together, great idea. At any rate I did prove its a sturdy box with that first flight attempt incident.
Got the Eclipse back to day and they did indeed replace the main board along with the right gimble pots so it makes me wonder about some other questionable incidents involveing ailerons. Naww probably just as dumb thumbed as ever!
Three more fine flights on the course this morning. This time had the Ant. run forward and back with nothing protruding out the rear usual. During all the radio drama I was paranoid and let it go full trail.
John
Yes sure did notice inside the fuse Bill, but forgot to mention it and do remember thinking how did he get that in there so nice and neat. But now now you let the cat outta the bag. I sure would not have thought of doing it before the sides were put together, great idea. At any rate I did prove its a sturdy box with that first flight attempt incident.
Got the Eclipse back to day and they did indeed replace the main board along with the right gimble pots so it makes me wonder about some other questionable incidents involveing ailerons. Naww probably just as dumb thumbed as ever!
Three more fine flights on the course this morning. This time had the Ant. run forward and back with nothing protruding out the rear usual. During all the radio drama I was paranoid and let it go full trail.
John
11-25-2002, 01:01 AM
#13
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Balsa trees
Originally posted by daven
Bill,
You leave the neighbors tree alone, and start bagging wings. Your behind schedule, and the demand is growing!
Bill,
You leave the neighbors tree alone, and start bagging wings. Your behind schedule, and the demand is growing!
the other 2 will follow out on Weds.
BV
11-25-2002, 08:21 PM
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Racer II fuselage
Hello,
I am reading this and I thought it was interesing that Bill glasses the entire insie of the fuselage. Has anyone else other than me tried the carbon tissue? I am building a new fuselage today and I am using 1/8" sides with carbon tissue and the 1/16 cross grain balsa. It looks very promising.
Jorge
I am reading this and I thought it was interesing that Bill glasses the entire insie of the fuselage. Has anyone else other than me tried the carbon tissue? I am building a new fuselage today and I am using 1/8" sides with carbon tissue and the 1/16 cross grain balsa. It looks very promising.
Jorge
11-26-2002, 02:17 AM
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A visit with the Racer 11
I've worked extensively with 0.2, 0.3, and 0.5 CF tissue in a wide range of scenarios with a wide range of materials.
You have to be careful because the tissue takes a lot of resin to wet out.
The CF tissue stiffens up things in a single layer, but the real gain comes when you sandwich something like 1/16" balsa or structural foam with it on both sides. The other side doesn't even have to be CF tissue. If you put 0.7 oz (or heavier) glass on the outside, you should have a very rigid structure.
One great thing CF tissue can do is to provide dent resistance. You have to use glass over tissue used on the outside because it is not sandable. A layer of 0.2 oz CF tissue with 0.7 oz cloth over it is about 15-30% heavier than 2.0 oz cloth if you really work the resin out of the tissue/cloth combo, but is much more dent resistant, and is about the same stiffness.
You have to be careful because the tissue takes a lot of resin to wet out.
The CF tissue stiffens up things in a single layer, but the real gain comes when you sandwich something like 1/16" balsa or structural foam with it on both sides. The other side doesn't even have to be CF tissue. If you put 0.7 oz (or heavier) glass on the outside, you should have a very rigid structure.
One great thing CF tissue can do is to provide dent resistance. You have to use glass over tissue used on the outside because it is not sandable. A layer of 0.2 oz CF tissue with 0.7 oz cloth over it is about 15-30% heavier than 2.0 oz cloth if you really work the resin out of the tissue/cloth combo, but is much more dent resistant, and is about the same stiffness.
