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Q-500 Racing Discuss AMA 428, AMA 424, and any other variants of Quickie 500 racing

How to make a Q500 wing??

Old 04-10-2007, 06:33 PM
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Xardas26
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Default How to make a Q500 wing??

I've been flying in the 424 class for a year now using my GP Viper, but now I would like to try other designs and airfoils. The problem is that I don't know enough to build a wing that will withstand the high g forces. I do know that a q500 wing has a styrofoam core that is sheeted with 1/16 balsa wood, and that the center section and TE are reinforced with layers of fiberglass. I don't however, if the wing has a spar and how to build it. I found several plans on q500.org, but they don't show how the wing is built.
Can anybody please help me????
Old 04-10-2007, 07:05 PM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

There are many ways to skin a cat, but for a 428 wing...

I use 3/32 skins for the top surface, and 1/16 with a .007 x 1/2" carbon fiber strip glued to the inside surface of the lower skin. Both skins are 7 to 8 lb. stock. The CF only needs to be 30-36" in length on the lower skin only, none on the top.

With the higher weight standard now in effect, you can use 3/32" skins top and bottom.

A spar is not needed, but glass the center section with tapered layers of 2 oz cloth, wider at the front of the wing.
Old 04-10-2007, 07:23 PM
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Druce
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Do you put the carbon fiber down the middle of the wing on the bottom? How about a strip about 1" on top of the wing along the trailing edge for a hinge line also?
Old 04-10-2007, 07:32 PM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

I put the carbon strip at the thick point of the airfoil on the lower skin, just as a tension member. I don't use skin hinges, but there have been several articles on that. Use the search function.
Old 04-10-2007, 11:31 PM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

A couple of pictures of the center section glass with the edges outlined. Front holddown is 3/4" dowel drilled and countersunk for 1/4-20 bolts. The rear holddown is inlaided 1/8" plywood plate for the 10-24 flathead bolts.
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:02 AM
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Ed Smith
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Centre section glass is not necessary and adds too much weight. I use 1 strip of 2oz glass at the centre section. It is just wider than the fuselage to provide a hard surface for the wing saddle and prevents the fuselage from "Bedding" into the wing skin.

Laying reinforcement strips flat on a wing is pointless. The strength /stiffness gained is out of proportion to the weight added. Such strips can be snapped very easily. I use a 24" spar the full depth of the core at the high point of the airfoil. The spar is 1/8 Liteply with carbon tow glued either side of it with epoxy resin. The spar weighs 20 grams and when glued into the slot is virtually unbreakable.

Ed S
Old 04-11-2007, 12:19 PM
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rmenke
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Ed: Looks like you are running two servos in the second wing, I guess for backup or flaps. If for flaps, how does it work out and at what %. Thanks
Old 04-11-2007, 01:43 PM
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daven
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

I believe that wing with two servos was Bobs, not Ed's.

Some of the guys use two servos to add reflex to the wing in a turn. Flap's are really not necessary in a Quickie.
Old 04-11-2007, 03:18 PM
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bigtrev@xtra.co.nz
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Ed, did you get my email re model, can you email me please bigtrev@xtra.co.nz[&:]............I have the rum!
Old 04-11-2007, 03:56 PM
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MadScientist
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Dave,

What's the idea behind introducing reflex into the wing when turning? I've never seen that done on a Q500 and am curious as to the reasoning behind it. Thanks

Tony
Old 04-11-2007, 03:57 PM
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HighPlains
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Two aileron servos for control redundancy. While modifying the coefficient of lift of the wing over it’s span has certain advantages for racing, you can’t achieve that with just short ailerons set midspan.

As far as having a spar, vs. stress skin design, both methods work. On the stressed skin method, the upper surface skin takes the load in compression, and a thicker balsa skin does that quite well. Since the lower surface is in tension, the addition of the .007 carbon strip does that as well too. I have the center glassed since I find it easier to build two short panels and join them after construction. As far as weight goes, I usually had to add between 1 to 2 oz. of lead to the finished models anyway when the minimumweight was 56 oz.

This wing was destroyed after it’s second mid-air. Both times were while lapping traffic.
Old 04-11-2007, 06:52 PM
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Xardas26
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Thanks for the input guys. I sort of have an idea now how the wing is built. However, I still don't know how u guys make the trailing edge because assuming that i'm using 3/32 skins for top and bottom, it would mean that I would end up with a 3/16 thick trailing edge. I think somebody wrote something about putting a 2 inch wide fiberglass cloth along the trailing edge between foam core and the lower skin. However, I don't know how to sand it to come up with a sharp straight TE. Any suggestions??
Old 04-11-2007, 09:39 PM
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bigtrev@xtra.co.nz
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

the idea is to sand a taper in the trailing edge portion of each skin, but on the inside face, say about 50mm wide, with careful drawing of the airfoil cross section you will be able to establish exactly how wide that taper should be............the other way, but not favoured by me is to glue the sheets together as you describe and end up with a thick trailing edge, THEN sand the surplus balsa off from bothsides, using the glue line between the sheets at the TE as the sanding line. Neither is difficult, but take it slow and be careful- an extrta 15 minutes of your time will give you a real good job- wish you well, trevor h[:-]nz
Old 04-13-2007, 10:37 AM
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StanDouglas
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

This may be over kill, but I use Carbon Fiber Laminate, .014"x3/8" on my trailing edges. I trim away about 1/4" of the foam at the trailing edge and butt the laminate up against the foam after I have set it in the skin. To keep it from moving I tack it to the foam with CA. Then I do the skins either by bagging or with weights on the foam shells. I clamp the trailing edge of the wing skins with aluminum angle stock (1/16" thick 1/2"x3/4"x48" at Home Depot). One on the top of the trailing edge and one on the bottom with clothespins every 3 inches or so. After the wing sets up the trailing edge is absolutely straight. (I use scrap laminate to fill out the remaining 2" on each wing tip)

Now I can sand the trailing edge down to the laminate. The balsa sands way easier than the laminate and the edge is supper strong and if you carefully sand the laminate a little you can get it very sharp.

Laminate is from AeroSpace Composites CL2-41A around $6 for 2@48" length. Carbon fiber and kevlar is getting out of sight!

Stan
Old 04-13-2007, 10:51 AM
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Ed Smith
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

I do basically the samed as Stan. When I am applying the glue to the skins I lay a strip of Carbon cloth along the inside trailing edge of both skins. Like Stan I sand to a knife edge when cured. That is the reason I never use polyurethane glue to apply wing skins. Epoxy/carbon cures to a very hard stiff edge, Polyurethane glue will not, it stays "Soft"

ED S
Old 04-15-2007, 04:07 AM
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mroos
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

This is the way i built up my Wood Q500 Raptors (some short informations without scientific explanation):

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attac...3&d=1135855582

Leading edge is made of Abachi. Leading edge is very important, so balsa is wrong here. Abachi prevents most of the performance hurting dents. One of my sold Raptors cut another racers Balsa wing in two pieces during a midair as he tried to pass him closley and survived only with an easy to fix dent in the leading edge... ok unbelievable but true - that wasn'T the intention but speaks for itself : ) I get my leading edges shaped to the profile i am using so that even easier for me when building (glue on a bit sanding and ready). But normally when small enough sanding it to shape is easier everytime.

The carbon fibre in the trailing edge should be aligend +/-45° . I terms of forces it's the right (only) way. You could also add a CFK Roving along the trailing edge. But for Q500 thats overkill. +/-45° also makes it easier to sand it to a razor edge, but thats only a side effect.

The balsa spar gives great stiffness and long term stability /stiffness. IT prevents that the upepr side balsa fails (Crushs) even when the lower side (carbon) is still intact. you could add tons of carbon (ok until the wing itself if carbon only... , it would be all useless without a spar. For 424 you can build with a smaller one or maybe without one if you are using more glass on top side than. The fibres of the balsa spar are alligned vertical.

The carbon bands on the spar are gradated exactly in that manner lift forces act. Can be calculated before. With 'uneven' distribution of bands new problems can appear!

If cut cnc cut the wings (like i do) and cores and wings are exact (airfoil depth etc.) you preciseley cut away the trailign edge. I do that on a Platform saw in our neighbours carpenter's workshop. So you get a perfect straight trailign edge which then can be saned down smooth. You have to use slightly longer balsa sheeting and carbon layup of course.

On top there are 2 layers of light glass to 'protect' the wing in the wing saddle area.

I think that unsymmetrical wing build up is not a good idea.

About the snap flap thing. This depends on the airfoil if it makes sense or not. But aileron size has to be different also than on most of the q500 racers. (about 70% of wingspan).

Hope this helps.

best regards

Mario
Old 04-16-2007, 11:52 PM
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Xardas26
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Hey Mario,

es musste natuerlich ein Deutscher sein der mir die besten Tipps gibt!!! Vielen Dank!!!!! Die Erklaerung und das Bild haben mir echt weitergeholfen. Einfach Klasse!!! Mir kommt es so vor, als ob sich Deutsche Modellflieger viel mehr mit Faserverbundstoffen befassen als die Amis. Ich hab hier in den USA bis heute noch kein anstaendiges Fachbuch gefunden dass sich mit Composite Modellbau beschaeftigt. Ich glaub ich werd mir ein paar Buecher vom vth Verlag bestellen, auch wenn der Versand etwas teurer sein wird.
Wie lange beschaeftigst du dich schon mit Quickie 500?? Ist diese Klasse in Deutschland populaer??

MFG Markus
Old 04-17-2007, 04:42 AM
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mroos
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Hello Markus,

i will answer in english, so everyone can follow the thread.

I think 'Americans' are also good (composite) builders! And by comparing the times in Q500, they are much better skilled than we are currently.

Sandwhich wings aren't 'true' composite, so it's difficult to find books or similar. Maybe there are some informations on www.r-g.de or on www.swiss-composite.ch. But i guess you will also find many informations in this forum. Building wings like this isn't such unusal.

Good solution is to find someone which explains it to you by building a wing together. He can give you also some of the small tricks (there aren't so much). MAybe someone of your club (?).

But don't ask to many, if you ask 10 people you will get 20 different opinions and get more and more confusesd .

About the spar again. It works without spar with RG15 or RG17 foam and the addtional glass. But, for example, with very light weight RG8 foam it won't work. Nor does it work without a spar in composite wings. I think without spar it is right on the edge with balsa sheeting. It also depends on the airfoil and engine. The airfoil i am using is build for higher g turns. so load is higher as with a naca airfoil. It also has some reserves for the Q500 LS engine. So a 424 wing doesn'T need what a 428 wing needs. There is also some "historic" difference in rules. US had about 1558 grams, we had 1800grams. So for us there wasn't the need to save weight as much, which explains some of the differences. From this year we both do have about 1700grams. Makes it a bit easier for you, and a bit harder for us.

If you (or everyone else) found something that works, it works so do it this way. There are a bit different ways.

I am also working on a composite wing, but this will take some time to finish it. CNC milling work has be done already.

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attac...3&d=1173187660
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attac...5&d=1173902809
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attac...3&d=1173902809

A bit offtopic, but i hope its ok.
I am on the Q500 waggon for a relatively short time. But so far i am happy with my contest results. But pilot should be faster this year, otherwise i will get lapped . Q500 becomes more and more popular in Europe and Germany. This year we try to fly out a first 'Test Eurocup' (3 races) in Q500. I think pilots from Belgium, Netherlands, germany, maybe France and Great Britain will join. Maybe from other countries also. We will know after the race. Two guests from quatar anounced, that they will join the race in Tongeren (Belgium). Will be very intresting and much fun. Simply Q500 is much fun!

In germany we do have a pylon forum on www.rc-network.de. I think this gives some impressions to you. I also set up a website. The one listed in my footer (www.q500.org) which gives some informations. (please use opera or internext explorer, there are problems with firefox)


best regards

Mario
Old 04-18-2007, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

I am also working on a composite wing, but this will take some time to finish it. CNC milling work has be done already.
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attac...3&d=1173902809
Mario
Hi Mario. Nice pictures! Can you elaborate on the material you chose to mill the plug from. Looks like tooling urethane, butwhat manufacturer & specs?

When I clicked on your link to CNC zone, it just went to the general website. Do you have a specific folder name or thread further describing a cnc milling machine or your wing project in more detail? Im interested in what mill you have access to (or have built), what 3D modelling package & toolpath software you use on it.

Thx, Peter
Old 04-19-2007, 04:49 AM
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mroos
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

Hello Peter,

These 3 pictures pictures are embedded in a thread on rc-network.

The link to the CNC forum was imbedded by the forum software, not by me.

I haven't done the milling myself. A professional company made the millingwork for me.
I do own 'only' a cnc hot wire cutting machine. But I will build up the molds and wings of course myself.

Material is no secret:

The material used is M960 from http://www.sika-tooling.de/
A data sheet is online here: http://www.sika-tooling.com/SikaBlock_M960_eng.pdf

We have chosen the M960 instead of (green) M950 or even lighter materials, because milling quality is better.
On the pictures it isn't polished. They need just a minimum polishing (no shaping) so that there is no airfoil 'damage'. The gloss
is verry good in my opinion now.

I don't like the idea of having heavy aluminium molds. And molds only means no backup if something goes wrong.
My thoughts why it is done this way.

I will use the same technique for the molds as Martin Weberschock does (epoxi+poraver glass 'bubbles' and carbon fibres.

Currently i don't have time to work on the molds, because i am preparing for the first Q500 race for this season in about 2 1/2 weeks.



best regards,

Mario



Old 04-19-2007, 09:30 AM
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ptxman
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??


The material used is M960...We have chosen the M960 instead of (green) M950 or even lighter materials, because milling quality is better.
...I will use the same technique for the molds as Martin Weberschock does (epoxi+poraver glass 'bubbles' and carbon fibres....Mario
Thanks for the info. Im familiar with that tooling board, or more correctly, familiar with buying some F5D models made from that material.
http://www.flybiwo.be/home.php?ID=13
I think the 2006 German F5D team used a similar poraver composite mold technique for one of their F5D models vs female molds milled directly from the Sika board, aluminum etc.

- do you also frame your plug (meaning mount it to a metal subframe) for dimensional stability? Or does it remain flat & after milling? (ie post-milling stress relieving warpage).

- was it expensive to get the cnc milling done with the 'professional company', or can you elaboarte on that?

- what software was used to do the 3D surface modeling?
Old 04-20-2007, 12:02 PM
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mroos
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Default RE: How to make a Q500 wing??

3D modeling: They used CATIA for surface modeling.

Costs : Enough...[8D]

Frame: Yes, the milled parts on the picture are clued to a 'frame'. During milling already - after milling them flat before! It is hidden by the 'Sika' splinters on the pictures.
Even when this is very stable, the molds will be build on a flat (same) surface to prevent any problems. Maybe a bit overkill. But i am paranoid in such things

After removing material during milling small problems in dimensions might appear due inner tension. Unusual, but we wanted to have that prevented that directly. This is one reason. Temperature differences is not a problem.



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