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So I dusted off my planes the other day...

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So I dusted off my planes the other day...

Old 01-19-2021, 03:16 PM
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Post So I dusted off my planes the other day...

I spent years building and flying everything under the sun but years ago I just got too busy and put everything away. ((Fast forward 15 years....)) I have more time and I got the bug to go out and fly again. So I clean up a few of the models and head out to the airfield and OMG EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED. What used to be a a well regulated place to fly- Calls for Taking Off, Landing Right, Deadstick Left, etc.. is now a madhouse of drones buzzing the pits, people standing on the runway saying go ahead I'll be fine, planes taking off on the ramps and flying over everyone's head and technology out the wazoo and foam everywhere. I am not saying its good bad but i feel like Rip Van Winkel. People are like WOW is that a gas plane! Even had someone complain about the exhaust and noise when tuning a plane on the stand. I have a lot of planes. So a lot of choices to take to the airfield. I have even converted one (a large scale cub) to electric. So I am sure I will adapt. I am glad to see so many people out but I also want to survive the experience.
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Old 01-19-2021, 10:19 PM
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Welcome to the land of entitlement and self importance.
Sounds to me like the people in charge are just letting people run amuck and that isn't a good thing. Rules used to be there for a reason, EVERYONE'S SAFETY!!!
IF safety isn't a concern of everyone at that field, I'd be finding out who is in charge and talk to them about it. As you are probably aware, that doesn't mean I'm saying to confront anyone but, rather, ask if that's the norm and when would be a good day/time to fly where you won't have to be worried about getting hit with a drone. If the people in charge don't seem to care, I'd find a different place to fly where safety is the first thing everyone thinks about rather than one of the last.
As far as someone complaining, sounds like they don't want you/your plane there. I'd try going back again, with a couple of planes this time, and see what happens. If anyone complains about your planes running or exhaust smelling, I'd start looking for another place to fly
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Old 01-20-2021, 05:29 AM
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Not good for certain. You don't mention, is this location operated by a club? You also didn't mention if you had renewed your AMA membership prior to heading out. If it is not an AMA club site you may be out of luck and just need to go somewhere with more safety culture. If it is an AMA club site, get your hands on a set of that clubs bylaws and the AMA safety code. Using those two items contact the clubs safety officer first, voice your concerns in a non confrontational manner and inform him you plan to voice your concerns at the next club meeting. You of course would need both club membership and AMA membership for this to be effective. Most clubs right now are having virtual meetings. Express your concernes regarding safety issues and use the bylaws and AMA safety code as your tools. I wouldn't mention the complaints about your engine noise ( provided you are using the stock muffler) or the complaints about exhaust smoke. You may just need to make some adjustments there so that you are not considered a bad member. When I take a glow engine out to my field I pit at the very down wing end. If all else fails you can contact the AVP in your district and relate your safety concerns to him. Good luck and welcome back.
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Old 01-20-2021, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Not good for certain. You don't mention, is this location operated by a club? You also didn't mention if you had renewed your AMA membership prior to heading out. If it is not an AMA club site you may be out of luck and just need to go somewhere with more safety culture. If it is an AMA club site, get your hands on a set of that clubs bylaws and the AMA safety code. Using those two items contact the clubs safety officer first, voice your concerns in a non confrontational manner and inform him you plan to voice your concerns at the next club meeting. You of course would need both club membership and AMA membership for this to be effective. Most clubs right now are having virtual meetings. Express your concernes regarding safety issues and use the bylaws and AMA safety code as your tools. I wouldn't mention the complaints about your engine noise ( provided you are using the stock muffler) or the complaints about exhaust smoke. You may just need to make some adjustments there so that you are not considered a bad member. When I take a glow engine out to my field I pit at the very down wing end. If all else fails you can contact the AVP in your district and relate your safety concerns to him. Good luck and welcome back.
This is not an AMA Field. I don't have any local fields that are associated with the AMA. All of ours are ran by the local municipalities. I am glad I have nice facilities to utilize but the lack of following the basic 'posted' rules was disconcerting. I have options, I am about 20 minutes from 2 fine airfields. I may try the other one and see if it has better decorum. Everyone seemed so comfortable with things just buzzing about. I kid you not I had a small fpv drone circling me at 3-5 feet while I was flying from the pilot box. Many people sit in the pits with their headsets/goggles on and fly about. I don't want to call them entitled or rude I think it is just plain unaware of consequences.
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Old 01-20-2021, 03:08 PM
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Being the father of 5 ( all in their 20's now ) I can say that there was a time where it appeared that the schools were teaching them that they were deserving as opposed teaching them that they need to earn what they get. That coupled with them growing up around technology gives them a sense of security with it.


Unfortunately what you describe happens way too frequently at the rogue fields. This coupled to having the FAA starting to take a look at our activities is the reason why several years ago I made the decision to only fly at an AMA club field. There you get the benifit of organization that includes a board of directors and club officers including the most important, the safety officer. Not always perfect but for the most part it works and everyone has a good time while out at the field while behaving in a safe manner.


Now before anyone chimes in and starts telling me what I ment while using the term " rogue " by using their definition as opposed to mine, the term is commonly used and simply refers to any group flying at a site not associated with any organization ( CBO ) and does NOT imply any wrong doing or a lower class of R/C enthusiasts.

Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 01-20-2021 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Spelling corrections
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Old 01-20-2021, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Being the father of 5 ( all in their 20's now ) I can say that there was a time where it appeared that the schools were teaching them that they were deserving as opposed teaching them that they need to earn what they get. That coupled with them growing up around technology gives them a sense of security with it.


Unfortunately what you describe happens way too frequently at the rouge fields. This coupled to having the FAA starting to take a look at our activities is the reason why several years ago I made the decision to only fly at an AMA club field. There you get the benifit of organization that includes a board of directors and club officers including the most important, the safety officer. Not always perfect but for the most part it works and everyone has a good time while out at the field while behaving in a safe manner.


Now before anyone chimes in and starts telling me what I ment while using the term " rouge " by using their definition as opposed to mine, the term is commonly used and simply refers to any group flying at a site not associated with any organization ( CBO ) and does NOT imply any wrong doing or a lower class of R/C enthusiasts.
I disagree with the term rouge for a couple of reasons:
  1. it implies, by you, lawlessness by the membership which may or may not be the case. It could be nothing more than not having anyone around to enforce the rules so they are ignored
  2. the definition of rouge is a red powder or cream used as a cosmetic for coloring the cheeks or lips. I think you got a typo in there, it should have been rogue, which means a dishonest or unprincipled man.
Now, with that said, I stand by my previous post, find out who is in charge and ask about the rules and policies at the field. Take the answer you get and follow you instincts on whether you want to try again or not at that location
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Old 01-20-2021, 05:01 PM
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I would tread lightly on complaining about safety issues. Granted none of us want to see anyone get hurt but it's quite possible that the people in charge of determining how this land is being used may take the easy way out and just close the place down. I would suggest checking out the other places and see if they are any better. If not then make a choice and try to introduce a safety culture from within, be a positive example and acknowledge people when they fly in a safe manner. Much more can be accomplished with positive re enforcement from within as opposed to trying to hammer your values onto someone else from the outside.
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Old 01-21-2021, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Unfortunately what you describe happens way too frequently at the rogue fields.
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Now before anyone chimes in and starts telling me what I ment while using the term " rogue " by using their definition as opposed to mine, the term is commonly used and simply refers to any group flying at a site not associated with any organization ( CBO ) and does NOT imply any wrong doing or a lower class of R/C enthusiasts.
WHOSE definition? You "quoted" it as "their" definition (as opposed to yours). Nobody in this thread used the term rogue, where, pray tell did you come up with THAT one?

The term rogue to simply describe a non-AMA affiliated field is rooted in bias and clearly meant to portray a negative light, despite your disclaimer...

Here's how the dictionary defines rogue:

noun
  1. 1.
    a dishonest or unprincipled man.
    "you are a rogue and an embezzler"


Words have meaning, you as an individual do not get to use terms that have a meaning, then use them and tell folks it doesn't mean what it means. LOL

Regards,

Astro
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Old 01-21-2021, 11:12 AM
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[QUOTE=astrohog;12658510]WHOSE definition? You "quoted" it as "their" definition (as opposed to yours). Nobody in this thread used the term rogue, where, pray tell did you come up with THAT one?

The term rogue to simply describe a non-AMA affiliated field is rooted in bias and clearly meant to portray a negative light, despite your disclaimer...

Here's how the dictionary defines rogue:

noun
  1. 1.
    a dishonest or unprincipled man.
    "you are a rogue and an embezzler"


Words have meaning, you as an individual do not get to use terms that have a meaning, then use them and tell folks it doesn't mean what it means. LOL

Regards,

Astro[/QUOTE

Except he does because the 1st Amendment doesn't mean you have the right to not be offended, it means people have the right to say what they please. And yes, you can scream fire in a crowded theater. But you can be held liable because it is a breach of the contract you make when buying that ticket. I know the Constitution is like a cross to a vampire to far too many people these days, but it's time for everyone to pick one up and read it. I promise you won't burst into flames. Oh and the "cliff notes" to help understand what it really means, which most people don't do, are found in the Federalist Papers.
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Old 01-21-2021, 11:30 AM
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[QUOTE=Desertlakesflying;12658540]
Originally Posted by astrohog
WHOSE definition? You "quoted" it as "their" definition (as opposed to yours). Nobody in this thread used the term rogue, where, pray tell did you come up with THAT one?

The term rogue to simply describe a non-AMA affiliated field is rooted in bias and clearly meant to portray a negative light, despite your disclaimer...

Here's how the dictionary defines rogue:

noun
  1. 1.
    a dishonest or unprincipled man.
    "you are a rogue and an embezzler"


Words have meaning, you as an individual do not get to use terms that have a meaning, then use them and tell folks it doesn't mean what it means. LOL

Regards,

Astro[/QUOTE

Except he does because the 1st Amendment doesn't mean you have the right to not be offended, it means people have the right to say what they please. And yes, you can scream fire in a crowded theater. But you can be held liable because it is a breach of the contract you make when buying that ticket. I know the Constitution is like a cross to a vampire to far too many people these days, but it's time for everyone to pick one up and read it. I promise you won't burst into flames. Oh and the "cliff notes" to help understand what it really means, which most people don't do, are found in the Federalist Papers.
I agree 100%!
Folks can fantasize and play make believe all they want, it simply doesn’t change reality, OR contribute to these threads in any beneficial way.
Nowhere did I say I was offended, but I did hold him “liable” for the incorrect use of his words.

Astro
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:12 PM
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Just a reminder guys, this thread was started by someone that returned to the hobby only to find the flying field was an uncontrolled almost "mob' scene. Let's not take this one down the rabbit hole of arguing that many other threads end up in. I'm going to clarify a few points and then WE WILL RETURN THIS THREAD TO IT'S ORIGINAL TOPIC:
  1. An airfield is not rogue because it doesn't have the AMA calling the shots, it's simply unaffiliated with any sanctioning organization, something Broken already told us
  2. The airfield in question is operated by the local municipality, not a club. It doesn't have an officer or board to go to, other than said municipality so, if that municipality needs to clean up, or not, how the field is run, the choice is theirs.
NOW, LET'S GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND

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Old 01-21-2021, 04:04 PM
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If you fellas will go back and re-read, Speedracerntrixie was careful in how he wrote specifically to avoid an argument over the meaning of the word. He defined it the way he meant it as simply a non-AMA field and specifically said he doesn't mean to imply a negative connotation. "Rogue club" or "Renegade club" are terms frequently used for that kind of operation. Hopefully this clears things up and quibbling over the meaning of a word won't be necessary anymore.

To the OP: I think you've been given good advice to see if there is any kind of organization to this group and speak to the safety officer or club president before writing them off. Sadly, there are plenty of stories of groups that get like this, chaotic and inconsiderate, specifically because they are comprised of people who don't like following rules. But before deciding that this is the club culture and moving on, I'd definitely try to talk with the club leadership.
However, I disagree about not reporting this kind of activity to the landowner. That could get some real change happening soon. My club is on Corps land, and we have clear requirements in our lease. Our club leadership is very aware that we could lose our lease if complaints start coming in from the public or if there is drama within the club that starts causing trouble for the CoE. I think most landowners would want to know if flying activity is being reckless so they don't have to be concerned about lawsuits or complaints coming to them. So I'd definitely report it if a conversation with club leadership doesn't get the job done.
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Old 01-21-2021, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
If you fellas will go back and re-read, Speedracerntrixie was careful in how he wrote specifically to avoid an argument over the meaning of the word. He defined it the way he meant it as simply a non-AMA field and specifically said he doesn't mean to imply a negative connotation. "Rogue club" or "Renegade club" are terms frequently used for that kind of operation. Hopefully this clears things up and quibbling over the meaning of a word won't be necessary anymore.
With all due respect, jester, read what you just wrote. LOL
If speed had been careful in what he wrote, he wouldn't need to re-define an already defined word. "Non-AMA affiliated club" would have been shorter, clearer and not portrayed clubs that choose to operate outside the auspices of the AMA as some kind of miscreants. Rogue and Renegade are only used by those that are AMA disciples, it's really not a very nice way to refer to fellow modelers who choose no to join the AMA. This forum is here for all modelers, right? Not just the AMA loyalists?

Using yours and speedy's logic above, I could call another member here an idiot and then say I didn't mean to disparage him or her because idiot is a term I use to refer to people who belong to the AMA, despite how the dictionary (and everybody else) defines the word.

Nobody is quibbling here, just setting the record straight.

Astro

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Old 01-21-2021, 06:57 PM
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This is interesting, Astro. Us Washingtonians must think alike
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Old 01-21-2021, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
This is interesting, Astro. Us Washingtonians must think alike
Maybe. I'd like to think that grammar is grammar and the meaning of a word is the meaning of a word. Not a difficult concept, and not really one that can be changed with an opinion.

there is absolutely no way to have a conversation if there is no established meaning to the words we use!

Astro

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Old 01-22-2021, 05:40 AM
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I've seen the same rouge behavior at AMA fields as well,,, It's happens because in the upside down world we now live in where no one wants to be the bad guy by calling people out for their rule violations,, I know one field where the club AMA safety officer seemingly couldn't care less, Often see in his presence, guys high speed runs buzzing the flight line, flying out of the pits, Drones hovering over the pits and pilots, and numerus people flying that don't have the skill to safely operate a plane,,, on and on,, I've chosen to just stop flying there. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt there,, Being an AMA field means nothing

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Old 01-22-2021, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by scale only 4 me
I've seen the same rouge behavior at AMA fields as well,,, It's happens because in the upside down world we now live in where no one wants to be the bad guy by calling people out for their rule violations,, I know one field where the club AMA safety officer seemingly couldn't care less, Often see in his presence, guys high speed runs buzzing the flight line, flying out of the pits, Drones hovering over the pits and pilots, and numerus people flying that don't have the skill to safely operate a plane,,, on and on,, I've chosen to just stop flying there. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt there,, Being an AMA field means nothing
I can guarantee that, if I went out to a field that was in utter chaos as described, I would be raising hell with the people in charge. If there was someone that was supposed to be a safety officer, he wouldn't be when I got done. I tend to take safety to the extreme. I've lost people I knew to plane crashes, watched someone else get "eaten" by a turbine engine because of the people in charge not taking the time to do a task safely so I won't be allowing people to do things that are unsafe to the rest of the people that are at the field. You want to fly FPV, make sure you have a spotter standing next to you or you don't fly. Last thing I want is someone to lose an eye due to someone not flying an FPV(regardless in if it's a drone or plane) in a safe manner
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Old 01-23-2021, 10:48 AM
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Being reluctant to raise a fuss over an issue such as safety makes you part of the overall problem.

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Old 01-23-2021, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Retiredat38
Being reluctant to raise a fuss over an issue such as safety makes you part of the overall problem.

Nobody said anything about not addressing the safety issue. Going in guns blazing has a history of not working. Park Rancho San Antonio in Cupertino CA. is a great example. I used to meet up with customers there to test fly their trainers. That was back in the 1980's, when glow models were allowed. Then they got noise complaints so the Parks and recreation department made the field electric only. Things went pretty smoothly until 2012 when complaints about airplanes getting too close to hikers and parking lots. Parks and recreation then forced the group into an AMA charter to continue to fly in the park.





Model_Aircraft_Rules.pdf

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...n-Cupertino-Ca
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Old 01-23-2021, 11:38 AM
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Wow,, a perfect yin and yang,,, once again
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Nobody said anything about not addressing the safety issue. Going in guns blazing has a history of not working. Park Rancho San Antonio in Cupertino CA. is a great example. I used to meet up with customers there to test fly their trainers. That was back in the 1980's, when glow models were allowed. Then they got noise complaints so the Parks and recreation department made the field electric only. Things went pretty smoothly until 2012 when complaints about airplanes getting too close to hikers and parking lots. Parks and recreation then forced the group into an AMA charter to continue to fly in the park.





Attachment 2269215

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...n-Cupertino-Ca
Doesn't sound like Park and Rec did anything other than address safety issues that were reported, the members caused the reaction. If hikers were feeling threatened by low flying planes, then the guys operating them needed to make a change. I don't see how they were "FORCED" to join the AMA, just to rein in the dangerous flying practices of those that were a hazard to others in the park. The noise complaints are a whole different issue that was probably poorly handled by everyone
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:07 PM
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Yeah, the Club that uses a park field in So Cal for years tried to get 100% control over the field,, but the city rejected a membership requirement since it is a Public park,, The club for years promised it was just to get everyone to follow the rules,, but we all knew it was so the GOM could control who got to fly there and who they could black ball,, also who could put on races and other flying events,

Every so often some reckless flier would come along,, but peer pressure was enough to straighten most guys out,
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
Doesn't sound like Park and Rec did anything other than address safety issues that were reported, the members caused the reaction. If hikers were feeling threatened by low flying planes, then the guys operating them needed to make a change. I don't see how they were "FORCED" to join the AMA, just to rein in the dangerous flying practices of those that were a hazard to others in the park. The noise complaints are a whole different issue that was probably poorly handled by everyone


The complaints opened the eyes of the Parks and recreation staff to the possible liability issue. They gave the guys flying in the park two choices, fly elsewhere or provide your own insurance. The AMA charter provided the insurance. Even though did you hit the link to the rules and see how restrictive they are? This is why I suggested to the OP ( who appears to be gone now ) that it would be better to try to fix the safety issues from within. Going straight to the government agency in charge of the land has the potential of getting them shut down or having to provide their own form of liability insurance.
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by scale only 4 me
Yeah, the Club that uses a park field in So Cal for years tried to get 100% control over the field,, but the city rejected a membership requirement since it is a Public park,, The club for years promised it was just to get everyone to follow the rules,, but we all knew it was so the GOM could control who got to fly there and who they could black ball,, also who could put on races and other flying events,

Every so often some reckless flier would come along,, but peer pressure was enough to straighten most guys out,
If you are referring to the Apollo field the last two lines of this page may interest you.


FLYING FIELD
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Old 01-23-2021, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
So, where in all of that does it say they had to join the AMA? NO WHERE!!!!
That tells me that AMA members that flew at that site had a heavy hand in forcing the AMA sanctioning as there are other sources to get liability insurance from than just the AMA

All due respect I have been told that several times by you and a few others. What I have yet to see is any of you to show any evidence of a group buying their own liability insurance that covers the property owner.
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