BillS

Countdown to crash?

What is the probably of disaster?

Today at the field it was discovered that two club members sometimes fly at an industrial park that is not well developed (helicopters and expensive gassers). Last week a third person was flying there and they became concerned about frequency conflict. Occasionally I fly from my home and invite others over to fly. The edge of the industrial park is 4300 feet from my property. Often one of the fifteen transmitters at my home is turned on sometime during the day to test equipment or to run an engine.

Unfortunately the trees and lay of the ground prevent visual contact.

How long will it be before we have radio technology that protects against turn on’s (spread spectrum or whatever)?

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I'd look at AMA's guidelines for field separation. It seems to me that you're well within the minimum separation recommended (can't remember the specifics, but seems like 2-3 miles), so I'd say you have the potential for disaster. Can you post a sign at the field asking whoever is there to call you to see if you've got a Tx on, and what channel? It would be a shame to shoot somebody down, and since you know this potential exists, it would appear to me that should it happen, it would be your fault if you haven't taken measures to at least warn people who might fly there. Whether you're flying or not, an operating transmitter makes you a "field".

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

It sounds to me as though Bill was there before the people started flying at the "under" developed industrial park, so I wouldn't put him at fault.

Good that you're concened though Bill. Have you talked with the guys about what channels their equipment is on? It's possible that you could give them a list of your most used channels and head off the potential, or at least make them aware.
Dennis-

cwrr5

My Feedback: (32)

Polks hobbies, Tracker II.

Are you using your radio(s) indoors for testing, etc? Antenna up/down? You might be o.k, but I would still contact those guys(or have them contact you) just to be on the safe side.

BillS

One would hope that when flying here everyone remembers to put the antenna UP. Engine testing is outdoors mostly with antenna down. Radio programming and servo set up is logically done indoors with antenna down.

And yes the two known members have been contacted but the unknown flyer is well … unknown.

While it is encouraging that Polks is working on advanced technology it is unlikely that four or five advanced computer radios (some with PCM receivers) will be scrapped for a less capable relatively unknown manufacturer without PCM capability. It is assumed that you are aware that scanning can only be helpful at the beginning of a flight and that a turn on during flight will still destroy the airplane.

One could always turn the radio on for 30 minutes before flying to clear the air of offenders. Just kidding. I am doing what seems prudent to avoid frequency conflict.

Bill

cwrr5

My Feedback: (32)

True! LOL!

I like Khodges idea of posting a sign, seems like a very logical thing to do in this case. Kudos for recognizing and trying to avoid a potential "situation".

BillS

Frequency control is an impossible situation.

Forgot to mention that a thirteen year old living even closer to the ‘under’ developed industrial park also has radio gear.

Placing blame really has no meaning. Any crashes will appear random and no one will ever know why a crash occurred.

There really doesn’t appear to be workable solutions short of technology that doesn’t require frequency control. I can’t keep track of my own frequencies as evidenced by finding another transmitter this morning. Coordination will be attempted with the two club members but no one knows the third person flying. The asphalt can be painted with known frequencies in use locally. Name won’t be used to avoid potential trouble with the authorities.

The speed that airplanes are bought and sold and new radios purchased will make any effort obsolete within thirty days. When friends are invited to fly the frequency they bring will not be known in advance and the frequency will change from time to time based on the last repair.

Clearing the air before flying does have a malicious but humorous ring.

When are we going to have equipment that avoids frequency conflict?

Bill

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

I would recommend you get a DW Systems Scanner.
While this will not keep them from shooting you down, it will let you know if someone is on your frequency.

jaka

Hi!
Why not start an AMA charted club and decide where to fly!
Flying is certainly risky.... but what you have told us seems to be ridiculous. Flying just about 1,2km from each other will sooner or later spell disaster.

Regards!

Jan K
Sweden

BillS

I have belonged to a club for a long time and fly there most of the time. Occasionally we fly at my residence and might eventually fly off the pond. By the way those in the most danger are those flying in the ‘under’ developed industrial park.

Also flying fields are subject to the same kinds of interference from others less knowledgeable or reckless about frequency conflicts.

Bill

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

True, and I apologize. I had forgotten the part in his post where he flew at his house. But I still think a sign at the industrial site to call him , or some form of communication, would help forestall a problem. I guess the others have as much right to fly there as he does at his house, but without some kind of frequency control or communication between the two sites, it's only a matter of time until somebody gets shot down, at one site or the other.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

One other thought-- whose fault and flyers' rights could start a whole new thread and could be argued ad infinitum and ad nauseum; but what I was thinking in my original post about "fault" was this: if BillS is inside, or in his yard, just working on a plane, not flying, and turned his radio on , how would that be different from someone doing it at a freq. controlled field and shooting down a flyer? The converse is also true, if he's flying at his house, and someone at the other field shot him down. Blame and fault are failures from not taking responsibility, and they serve no good purpose. Prevention of the problem is the key, and it is the responsibility of ALL flyers to ensure they cause no harm to other flyers' property. The only problem with this is that responsibility can only be taken voluntarily; sort of like right of way at an intersection, you can yield it, but not take it, safely.

Without some type of frequency control that everyone in that area would adhere to, flying there is a crap shoot. Then you could post a sign that says You're On Your Own.

Live Wire

This kind of thing take place all over the country. Trying to find a way to control this problem is just about impossible. Then it ends up where some one has a crash and every one suffers pays the piper. AMA clubs can not and do not solve the problem because people do what ever they want where ever they want then every one looses.
"I fought the Law and the Law one"

[8D]

BillS

The frequency conflict may have been solved but for all the wrong reasons. While exchanging frequency information with the two club members the unknown flyer has been identified.

Here is a snippet of the email.
“Interestingly enough I just received an e-mail from S G, the fellow Mark & I met out at that park near your house and he got cited for trespassing Monday at lunch, he works at RF Micro, and he stated that he won’t be going there again. Mark & I had mentioned our club to him so he now has a new incentive to come visit.�

Frequency control is a problem everywhere including the flight field. It will only get worse.

What are the technical problems of discriminating against bogus data? How does the ‘Privacy Code’ work on a walkie-talkie? What about RX filters that reject data without social security number?

Bill