Calmo2

[&o] I was not to sure where to put this comment so I thought I would put it here. What do you guys and gals think about all the ARFs and RTF. that are coming out. I was just reading one of the major modeling magazines and noticed that out of 9 gas powered planes they reviewed, 8 of them were ARFs. And in the same magazine I looked at one of the big hobby stores advertisements and out of 55 gas powered planes they advertised, 50 of them were ARFs or RTF. Is kit building going to becoming extinct. What ever happened to the pride and joy of building a plane and taking it out for its maiden flight? I realize that there are people who don't like to build or do not have the time or place to build, but it seems like the kit is becoming a thing of the past! I know there are a lot of plans out there but there are a lot of people out there who don't have the place or tools to build from scratch. Well now that I have gotten that off my chest I feel a little bit better. What do you guys think? I would like to see some of the major kit companies come out with some new kits like the new 3D planes, and some older planes from the past. Thanks for letting me vent.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I don't think kit building will ever disappear. There are those of us who enjoy the build as much as we enjoy the flying. RTF's and ARF's just bring R/C to the masses, and make it so much easier for those who A- don't have the building skills, B- don't have the building space, C- don't have the building time, or D-just want something they can put in the air in a minimum of time with a minimum of emotional attachment (less cussing when it finally gets "rekitted")

When I started just a few years ago, I was all gung-ho, said I'd never own an ARF. Well, I have three now, and I can go out and buzz around without a lot of worry that I will destroy many hundreds of hours of work, while I have something on the workbench for those rainy, windy days that I can look forward to flying on that perfect Saturday morning, using the experience I've gained with the beat 'em ups. But I will always prefer kits, or building from plans, when I have a special plane in mind, and will always value them more, too.

And I must say, I've seen some really nice ARF's coming out. I personally think a lot of them aren't as sturdily built as they should be, but as a capable builder, I can add a spar here, reinforce a joint there, and make it as sturdy (and heavy) as I'd like. What I'd really like to see on the market are some of these ARF's as RTC (ready to cover). It would make modifications easier, and personalization easier, also. I'm not a big MonoCote (generic for all plastic covers) fan, especially on planes who's full size covering is fabric or metal skin, so a RTC would give you the option of skinning, or applying fabric (Yea, Koverall!)

You can probably guess that I prefer scale planes, but the above could apply to anything. After watching Matt Chapman perform at the "Nall", I can understand why it would be great to have an ARF that looks like his, regardless of scale, but it would also look cool in a scheme that nobody else has.

Roby

Calmo2

This subject has all ready been beaten into the ground many times.

It comes down to this .

The hobby and it's participants have changed with the times. Some
like to build , some don't . Either way many people will go to no end
to justify "building" vs "ARF". Pick the way you want to go and tolerate
the remainder.

As for me , I like to build but I'll keep an ARF around for a winter basher.
This way I can keep my nice stuff for the good weather.

See ! ARF's and a kt building can work together


Regards
Roby

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

That's an understatement!
To this I would add, and ignore those who feel compelled to disparage people who fly ARFs.
Yup, they sure can. I've got both ARFs and kit built in my fleet. If only everyone could just learn to get along and not spend so much time convincing others that their way is the only "right" way.

One final note to Calmo2. There are actually quite a few kits, and builders, still out there. The problem is if one only looks at the big online vendors, or many local hobby shops, you won't see them. The ARFs seem to sell faster, and probably have a bigger markup. If you look around RCU and other places, it's easy to find bunches of small companies who seem to be making money selling kits.

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Well said, Roby. Lots of us do both; it adds to the enjoyment.

The only real downside to the ARF revolution is the slow but sure disappearance of some good old classic kits. They can still be found, but usually at scalper's prices.

Kaos Rulz

Calmo2

You're right. The whole ARF popularity is really increasing and it is this supply and demand situation that drives the manufactors to produce the ARF's.

I'm a kit builder and have been for 30+ years. I do own one ARF and it flys very well, but I do not have the same amount of pride in it as I do for the ones I have built.

ARF's are getting much better in overall quality, yet most still require beefing up here and there, and if you're not a "builder", chances are you won't have a clue where to look for these weak areas.

What I find sad is most ARF owners can't repair their planes due to their lack of building experience. And what I really find offesive is when I hear (or read) an ARF owner state that he is building an ARF. Give me a break!! They are ASSEMBLYING!! Most of it has already been built.

Great Planes. Bring back the Ultra Sport 60 kit.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Ed,
All I can say is amen, bravo, encore, more more more. I agree with your 110% on this one. In a conversation with a GP rep last year I did find out that GP was considering a limited "nostalgia" release of the US 60, but gave no time frame.

Now, with that said, I know of a laser cutter that can help you out in this area if you really want one. PM me for details if you are interested.

redfox435cat

yea this is a sad subject. I've built a couple ARFs and from an experianced builders perspective I haven't found one with the exception of a couple trainers that were desighned right. Every one of them I had to redeisghn. When I started this hobby years ago flying them got me into it. After a couple models I got board . I tried building I got my interest back and has kept me in the hobby ever since. I talk to alot of guys and none even seem the least bit interested in building. I don't think the kit builder will ever die since there is still pletty of people who love to do it but there is a steady decline. Even worse alot of the guys who have recenlty joined the club in the last few years are starting to lose interest. From what I've seen the whole concept of instant gratifacation is coming full circle. One gets into the hobby ethusiastically. Is overwhelmed by the complexity of the hobby. Have dificulty learning to fly. Eventuly learns and get pretty good. Gets a couple models. get board and leaves and might return in a decade.

Broken

I recently was approached by someone who was building a trainer (first plane) and needed assistance in learning how to cover and fly.

I have to tell you I was overjoyed!! I really like to see a new hobbyist with the patience to build. I am currently training him using my trainer and when his is finished he will be ready......

It just makes me smile...

tukkus

My Feedback: (2)

Maybe if some of the manufacturers started making 3D kits you would see a little more interest in building from the younger generation, I'm only interested in flying 3D planes and any type of biplane and I haven't seen or heard of any 3D kits on the market.

For me, space is an issue, I just don't have it. Considering the cost of ARF's and their quality vs. the time it takes to build a kit along with the cost , I'll take a ARF and use the time i save from not building for my other hobbies...until 3D kits are available.

I have 3 ARF's and 3 kits

UCD .46
Harrier 3D
Dioblotin super FG
SIG Liberty Sport bipe
GP Aeromaster bipe
RV-4

I'd love to be able to build kits like the Harrier, UCD, Dioblotin, Funtana, the YAKS and others but they're just not out there.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Do you drive a car with a stick-shift, or an automatic transmission?

There was a time when many felt that the Automatic Tranny would ruin cars, but in reality it allows many more people to drive.

ARF's allow many more people to fly.

More fliers = more people buying radios, engines, and other equipment.

More consumers = lower prices.

Jim_McIntyre

Hi Mike!

No Worries, I have no intentions of staying on to "beat the dead horse" once again but, I like your analogy .... from my perspective, many of these same drivers are the main cause of the high insurance rates as a direct result of making it easier for them to get a license.

... and no one can deny that kit availability has been greatly reduced since the glut of ARFs appeared. The flightline has sure become a lot less interesting as well.

... with apologies to the horse.

Calmo2

[X(] Thanks for all the replies, looks like I opened up a can of worms. Don't get me wrong, I am not totally against ARFs, it just seems like most of the major manufacturers are bringing out new ARFs and not kits. I am in the process of building a Dynaflite Flybaby that has been discontinued for some years now but I managed to find one because I love the older style planes, and I also have a Smith Miniplane I am building. The only problem I have with ARFs is like Ed said. People are buying them and don't know where to look to see if everything is built sturdy enough and if they do happen to do a little damage to it, rather than spending a little money to fix them they go out and buy a new one which can get pretty expensive and might turn some people off of the sport. Again, thanks for all your replies. Just wanted to see what other people thought.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Hey Jim, LTNS!

Jim is absolutly right in his analogy, And not long ago I was right beside him bashing ARF's, but the truth of the matter is: Building is a Hobby, Flying is a Sport.

There are many people (Like myself) that really enjoy building. But I have seen many people that I feel safer knowing that they did NOT build the plane that they are flying.

Also, there was a time (Not long ago) when ARFs were really cheesey - Today's ARF's are easily built as well as I can build. I am not a master builder like Jim and some of the others, but I AM a very good builder. And I still enjoy building my own planes. But the majority of fliers either don't do it well, or don't have the time, so I see no point in "forcing" them to build before they can fly.

So just as now you can still get a car with a stick, you will always be able to find kits - True, there will be less of them to choose from, but they will always be there.

Jim_McIntyre

Been hanging out on more "hobby" oriented sites.

I like your hobby/sport definition, and agree whith your distinction, I certainly enjoy both.

Much has changed since those discussion days, I've seen some impressive craftsmanship showing up in ARFs.

Still, these are typically the very high cost end of the market, and even then, the hardware supplied is, imho, not up to the quality of the build. I just don't get it. Why supply inferior hardware with a superior construction effort?

The lower cost stuff, the kind I see far too much at the field lately, appears to be designed to just meet the average life expectancy of these aircraft ... generally a few dozen flights.[:'(]

The ARFs that do survive, on talking to the owners, were highly modified to endure the stresses of higher airframe times. Skills, I might add, garnered from kit building.[8D]

Availability of kits ... sigh ... very few decent ones left, I've been buying off the net (when I'm not plans or scratch building) and that source is rapidly drying up. I'm beginning to feel like a drug addict begging for a fix in an ever drying market.[]

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

I know the feeling![]
I have been buying up my old favorites as I can find them, mostly on E-Bay. But as I sit here looking at my collection of kits I just realized that if I started today and built a kit every six months, I have enough to last me for 30 years!
In the past couple of weeks I picked up a new in the box Midwest Sweet Stick .40 and a new Orline Liberty Stick kit.
Had my eye on a Debolt Acrobat on E-Bay but, I couldn't stomach the $275.00 opening bid!!!!![:@]

LOTIS

the only thing i can say who cares what kind of plane it is as long as you are having fun flying it.

Broken

Well, - I have lots of planes. It just so happens that my arf to kit ratio is about 50/50. And it’s true that I enjoy my arfs, but I really enjoy the kits. I seem to have allot more pride in my 'one of a kind' models than I do my carbon copy arfs. I don't like showing up to the field and finding someone else with the exact same model (scheme and all) It's like being on the same channel in that I cannot fly with that model in the air (I might get confused and start flying the wrong model).

I am glad arfs are getting more people into the hobby- But with it comes a natural decline in kit availability and dare I say a dumbing down of the hobby.

redfox435cat

kits that make awsome 3-d planes, simply overpower them and you got 3-d

tower uproar
morris hobbies balsa nova
morris the knife
morris su-do-koy?<--spelling?
great planes dazzler
mild mods to the great planes superskybolt
mid-west cap 232
1/3 scale great planes extera 330l
dozens more

Jim_McIntyre

Sigh... then there are some simply awesome kits that may not 3d (yawn) very well, but who really cares?[8D]

For example, the Proctor nieuport...

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I agree, If you wanna fly 3-D. get a heli

BTW Jim, have you checked out Skyshark Kits? They're very impressive

As far as ARF quality, true, most of the really quality ARFs are at the upper end of the price scale, but there are a few that are outstanding in the lower dollar figures.

I am teaching a class with the local Adult Ed program where we just built a Hangar-9 Arrow. The quality of materials, construction, and hardware was outstanding, and the thing only cost $99 (AND it was ready to fly in less than three, 2-hour long sessions)

But next winter, I'll start on my new GP Skybolt Kit.

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Jim, Post #15 sounds like me talking to myself. And you make an excellent point on the longevity (or lack thereof) of the economy ARFs. I like, and have, a few high-end (Sig, Kangke) ARFs; and will doubtless have others in the future. But kits are where my heart really is...

I have gotten so aggravated with the auction prices lately that I have stopped looking for the time being. I'm eagerly awaiting the three-axis CNC router table that a buddy is working on; with that, we'll cut our own steenkin' kits...

So, CCRC1; what ya got in excess that you want to get rid of???[8D]

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

I work with N.A. kit manufacturers quite a bit. A big concern is not that of raw materials. The Asian companies are just out bidding the N.A. kit manufacturers on boatloads of raw wood, such as balsa. Only when the N.A. wood products importer bids high, does the material hit the wharf. You then must proportion these costs back into the selling price of the kit. There isn't a lack of ability, of a kit manufacturer to design anything, it just cannot be sold economically. The A.R.F. guys do not import the chaff, just the A/C for sale. You need to make the costs for raw materials (maybe by volume) to go down before the trend reverses. The few make it up from plans fellows out there, ignor costs, and build their heart's desire.

Wm.

redfox435cat

If ya wanna go there. they'er hunderdes of kits to go for.
Any top flies warbird is an awsome kit. I got a Sea fury in the work right now. I reccomend to anyone the GP cub 40 or 60 as a first kit since is so easy to fly. Might not be the easyiest kit but it's right there with them. In fact any GP kits is a great kit. I've never gone wrong with the 5 or so I've built. The easiest kit I've ever built is the tower uproar.

ballgunner

My Feedback: (1)

Realizing that all has been said before I finally got off my high horse (he'd been beaten almost to death) and decided that the advantages of ARF's were readily apparent to people who are interested in seeing the hobby/sport grow. They are there for the would be RC'er who hasn't the time, or ability, to build a kit. If I can't find a kit that I like I go back to how most of us started in the 30's. Get a set of plans, lots of those available, buy some balsa, glue and covering and go to work. You can have an airplane that you won't see every day at the field. Some of the ARF and RTC pilots may get an inspiration to build, some may not. In any case they will show up and fly and we can all have fun. There's room for everybody. Let's enjoy the companionship of all the RC pilots who show up to fly, mow the lawn or just BS between flights.