Glue
10-16-2002, 02:46 AM
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Glue
I am about to sheet the wing of my P-47. I have used Elmer's white glue to attach the balsa sheets together. The bond between the sheets is very good. The leading edge if the wing sheet is already attached using CA.
I was wondering if Elmer's white glue would be suitable to attach the sheeting to the ribs. The plans state to use aliphatic resin. I have lots of white glue and don't really want to purchase this glue if not required. I plan on wetting the sheeting prior to gluing. The airfoil is not very curved and I see no problems using the Elmer's white glue.
I need some input from the modeler's out there that may have experience in this area. I do plan on glassing the wing prior to completion. My main question is, will the Elmer's white glue be Strong enough to hold and I am also concerned with it popping off during the aircraft life span?
Craig.
I was wondering if Elmer's white glue would be suitable to attach the sheeting to the ribs. The plans state to use aliphatic resin. I have lots of white glue and don't really want to purchase this glue if not required. I plan on wetting the sheeting prior to gluing. The airfoil is not very curved and I see no problems using the Elmer's white glue.
I need some input from the modeler's out there that may have experience in this area. I do plan on glassing the wing prior to completion. My main question is, will the Elmer's white glue be Strong enough to hold and I am also concerned with it popping off during the aircraft life span?
Craig.
10-16-2002, 12:18 PM
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Glue
White glue is typically used to bond porous materials such as paper, cloth, wood..etc. The only place I use this type of glue when building is to bond paper to balsa( attaching a paper floor to a canopy base or instrument panel). For sheeting wings I usually join balsa skins with aliphatic resin and sheet using epoxy or elmers probond polyurethane. For sheeting over wood surfaces I like thick CA or aliphatic resin. I think the yellow glue is stronger than the white glue, but there is no reason the white glue won't work. It all comes down to your personal preference.
10-17-2002, 02:47 PM
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Glue
I have seen this type of question a few times on here..
So perhaps if may be nice if people were to identify what
aliphatic, poly, Ambroid, white, CA, epoxy, types of glues are,
and in what area or for what use, do you use each... And to further go into what some as ZAP, canopy, etc are used for and when...
Robby
So perhaps if may be nice if people were to identify what
aliphatic, poly, Ambroid, white, CA, epoxy, types of glues are,
and in what area or for what use, do you use each... And to further go into what some as ZAP, canopy, etc are used for and when...
Robby
10-18-2002, 06:52 PM
#6
Glue
Good question,
I'm not an authority on glues, but I just can't keep my mouth shut (as many of you know). So here goes...
Alphatic Resin glues are what we commonly know as Elmer's White Glue, or the similar (but apparently stronger) tan colored Carpenters Glue. These work best when applied in thin layers to both pieces, then clamped.
Ambroid used to have the wood-glue market cornered back in the 60's but is rarely seen anymore since CA hit the scene. It is a dark amber glue that dried as hard as a rock (and pretty quickly too). There's a pic of Ambroid at the bottom.
Ca is what the people outside of the hobby refer to as "Crazy Glue". It come in several forms (Thin, med., Thick, Medium-Thick, Thicker Than thin but Thinner than Medium, etc.) But basically the Thin CA is the most different from the others in that it needs a porous surface to react to. What this means is that if you glue twp pieces together with Thin CA, and they don't take the first time, you probably won't be able to use it again because the surface is now filled with dried CA and no longer porous. Time to get out the medium stuff. The medium and thick work very well between two pieces of wood, but when left out in the open (like when you apply some to a corner) they can stay liquid for some time. That's where accelerator comes in. Personally, I never use the spray bottle. Accelerator has a staying power. That means that the accelerator that you used two days ago when you were installing your ribs, is now hardening the CA that you're putting on the spar and leading edge to hold down the sheeting two days later, and you find that before you can finish getting the glue on the leading edge, the glue on the spar has cured! So I try not to use accelerator unless I HAVE to, and then, I will just dip a wire into the bottle and apply a drop just to the glued joint instead of spraying it all over the place.
ZAP is just a brand name for CA
And Canopy glue looks a lot like white glue, but it can be applied more heavily and it will still cure. and it dries clear, so it works very well for gluing canopies on with.
I'm not an authority on glues, but I just can't keep my mouth shut (as many of you know). So here goes...
Alphatic Resin glues are what we commonly know as Elmer's White Glue, or the similar (but apparently stronger) tan colored Carpenters Glue. These work best when applied in thin layers to both pieces, then clamped.
Ambroid used to have the wood-glue market cornered back in the 60's but is rarely seen anymore since CA hit the scene. It is a dark amber glue that dried as hard as a rock (and pretty quickly too). There's a pic of Ambroid at the bottom.
Ca is what the people outside of the hobby refer to as "Crazy Glue". It come in several forms (Thin, med., Thick, Medium-Thick, Thicker Than thin but Thinner than Medium, etc.) But basically the Thin CA is the most different from the others in that it needs a porous surface to react to. What this means is that if you glue twp pieces together with Thin CA, and they don't take the first time, you probably won't be able to use it again because the surface is now filled with dried CA and no longer porous. Time to get out the medium stuff. The medium and thick work very well between two pieces of wood, but when left out in the open (like when you apply some to a corner) they can stay liquid for some time. That's where accelerator comes in. Personally, I never use the spray bottle. Accelerator has a staying power. That means that the accelerator that you used two days ago when you were installing your ribs, is now hardening the CA that you're putting on the spar and leading edge to hold down the sheeting two days later, and you find that before you can finish getting the glue on the leading edge, the glue on the spar has cured! So I try not to use accelerator unless I HAVE to, and then, I will just dip a wire into the bottle and apply a drop just to the glued joint instead of spraying it all over the place.
ZAP is just a brand name for CA
And Canopy glue looks a lot like white glue, but it can be applied more heavily and it will still cure. and it dries clear, so it works very well for gluing canopies on with.
10-18-2002, 07:09 PM
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What do I use to glue _______
MinnFlyer
As usual you have come thru..
Now.. How about poly---- glues... Epoxy.. etc...
then, how about a lesson on your opinion of what is used where
and how... Should the wood be damp,, should the wood be
dry, should the wood be soaked,,etc...
Should CA be used on --kote,, should epoxy be used to glue clear
window material, etc..
Now, why would I ask this stuff.. Well, easy answer..
Because many people would like to ask and are affraid.. And wish
they would ask but won't...
BTW..
I still use Ambroid a lot..
Robby
As usual you have come thru..
Now.. How about poly---- glues... Epoxy.. etc...
then, how about a lesson on your opinion of what is used where
and how... Should the wood be damp,, should the wood be
dry, should the wood be soaked,,etc...
Should CA be used on --kote,, should epoxy be used to glue clear
window material, etc..
Now, why would I ask this stuff.. Well, easy answer..
Because many people would like to ask and are affraid.. And wish
they would ask but won't...
BTW..
I still use Ambroid a lot.. Robby
10-18-2002, 08:40 PM
#8
Glue
Epoxy is one of the strongest glues. But there's the time factor involved. I only use 30 minute epoxy. 5 minute epoxy doesn't work as well, and you have little time to work with it. Too many people think that it just works faster, but it only SETS faster. If you read the label, it still says something to the effect of: "Fully cures in 24 hours". So I use epoxy for things that need strength, that I can set, clamp, and leave at least overnight. Firewalls, wing joiners, and wing hold down plates are good examples of where to use epoxy. A good example of a place NOT to use epoxy is plastic. Epoxy does not stick to smooth plastic (like a canopy), which is a good reason to use plastic coffee can lids for mixing epoxy. You can mix it, use it, then later, just bend the plastic lid and the leftover epoxy just pops off. Note that covering will have a difficult time sticking to epoxy. So if you have fuel proofed your firewall with epoxy, and then have the forward fuse covering ends at the firewall, you may want to tack down the ends of the covering at the firewall with CA. Which brings us to the next chapter...
CA... CA works great. If you can stand the smell and the fumes, you can use it just about anywhere. It's only drawback is that it sets so quickly. So it is not a good idea to use it for something like gluing your stab to the fuse because you need time to align them exactly! What I do here is to use 30 min epoxy, line everything up (with shims if necessary) and then, add a drop of CA with some accelerator to hold everything in place while the epoxy cures.
CA also works great on plastic and covering. If you have a corner of covering that keeps coming up, a speck of CA will hold it down for good. In fact, many of my color schemes use pinstripes and stars, and each end of a pinstripe and each point of a star gets a speck of CA (I use the term "speck" because a "drop" is too much, or at least, more than necessary) I usually just add a little CA to the end of a pin and touch it to the ends of the pinstripes/points.
As far as the condition of the wood, as long as the wood isn't too dry (as in old and dried out) you shouldn't have a problem. If the wood were so dry that CA won't cure, I would be more concerned with the fact that the wood wouldn't be strong enough that being worried about the glue. In regards to dampness, I don't think it will affect any of the glues. It may make White/Carpenters glue cure slower since they are water based to begin with, but we have all had to wet down a sheet of balsa here and there to bend it into shape.
Which brings up a good point about Alphatic Resin glues. Since they are water based, they can be thinned, or excess can be cleaned off with water, but once they dry, they are waterproof.
So, what to use where? Different strokes etc.
For 90% of the building, I use Medium CA. (Many people use White/Carpenters glue for 90%). Lately, with bigger planes I use both just to save a few bucks. For instance, I will put a cap strip on a long rib by putting a drop of CA on each end, and one in the middle of the rib, then fill in the spaces with white glue. This way I didn't have to use a lot of CA, but the CA holds it right away and the white glue will cure overnight. It's sort of like using the CA where many people use pins.
Whew!
CA... CA works great. If you can stand the smell and the fumes, you can use it just about anywhere. It's only drawback is that it sets so quickly. So it is not a good idea to use it for something like gluing your stab to the fuse because you need time to align them exactly! What I do here is to use 30 min epoxy, line everything up (with shims if necessary) and then, add a drop of CA with some accelerator to hold everything in place while the epoxy cures.
CA also works great on plastic and covering. If you have a corner of covering that keeps coming up, a speck of CA will hold it down for good. In fact, many of my color schemes use pinstripes and stars, and each end of a pinstripe and each point of a star gets a speck of CA (I use the term "speck" because a "drop" is too much, or at least, more than necessary) I usually just add a little CA to the end of a pin and touch it to the ends of the pinstripes/points.
As far as the condition of the wood, as long as the wood isn't too dry (as in old and dried out) you shouldn't have a problem. If the wood were so dry that CA won't cure, I would be more concerned with the fact that the wood wouldn't be strong enough that being worried about the glue. In regards to dampness, I don't think it will affect any of the glues. It may make White/Carpenters glue cure slower since they are water based to begin with, but we have all had to wet down a sheet of balsa here and there to bend it into shape.
Which brings up a good point about Alphatic Resin glues. Since they are water based, they can be thinned, or excess can be cleaned off with water, but once they dry, they are waterproof.
So, what to use where? Different strokes etc.
For 90% of the building, I use Medium CA. (Many people use White/Carpenters glue for 90%). Lately, with bigger planes I use both just to save a few bucks. For instance, I will put a cap strip on a long rib by putting a drop of CA on each end, and one in the middle of the rib, then fill in the spaces with white glue. This way I didn't have to use a lot of CA, but the CA holds it right away and the white glue will cure overnight. It's sort of like using the CA where many people use pins.
Whew!
