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How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

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How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

Old 04-03-2006, 01:33 PM
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jzinckgra
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Default How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

About three years ago I learned how important it is to coordinate rudder with aileron. For a long time the left stick, other than throttle never got touched after takeoff. What I started noticing was my approaches for landing were faster and would lose altitude faster when I only used aileron to turn towards final. This is when I started using more rudder to swing the tail around, maintain altitude and bring the plane down in a more controlled manner. I now use rudder all the time in the air to mostly coordinate my turns. My pattern/sport planes seem to benefit most from this, however, my funfly plane that I was flying the other day really doesn't seem to need it. I noticed yesterday that I put too much rudder in towards final and it basically swung the tail around to the point where the plane almost stalled. My friend noticed it and commented that I shouldn't use so much rudder in my turns. The problem is that I am so used to coordinating turns that I overcompensate sometimes. I flew his combat plane, which has no rudder and was immediately moving the left stick left and right. Obviously, it had no effect It's hard to not want to coordinate all my turns now. I guess not every plane needs it, but it sure is hard to get away from it now.
How many of you guys actually use rudder/aileron for your turns? BTW, I don't mix my rudder/aileron.
Old 04-03-2006, 02:07 PM
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Ernie Misner
 
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I wind up using OPPOSITE rudder a lot on my funfly type planes, but as you already have, I should learn to coordinate rudder more when trying for a smooth pattern or landing style. I remember when I first started out, I programed the rudder to move in tandem with the ailerons!

Ernie
Old 04-03-2006, 02:47 PM
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FLYBOY
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I have always flown coordinated. I don't like to use the radio to mix it unless it is a glider. I do it manually on all my power and helicopters.
Old 04-03-2006, 06:47 PM
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redfox435cat
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

it's proper technique. If your not coordinating your turns your not flying the model. IMHO it's cheating to mix in rudder. When you do it's very difficult to cross couple controls which is imperitive in high wind/cross winds which is common here. On a trainer it's not that big a deal. Though it a heck of allot easier to learn if you do it from the get go. When you do learn how to coordinate turns flying in wind becomes a none issue, landing becomes a none issue and keeping the model in the center of the runway become childsplay. Flying scale models start looking scale, when you see a model crabbing the tail is lower than the nose and almost looks like it's stalling around a turn it's because the pilot isn't using his/her rudder. If you ever get into float models you'd better learn how to use the rudder or your going to snap it into the lake.
Old 04-03-2006, 08:14 PM
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vicman
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I have been using the GWS Corsair to teach this lesson to my 7yr old on the buddy box. It is incredible how much better it has made his flying with the trainer! Rudder co-ordination makes the plane look alot better on landing and regular flight with a plane that tip stalls like an under powered Corsair.
Old 04-03-2006, 10:23 PM
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I totally agree with the guys. I have been flying for about 5 years now and when I was tough to fly my instructor did not teach me to use the rudder, As I believe he still doesn't use his rudder. Anyway when I started playing with helis on the sim I quickly found that I couldn't fly it well because you have to fly the rudder with helis. So it got me to thinking about flying my fixed wings with rudder cordination. And even though I can't say that I am a great pilot, but I did notice that my planes do look a little better in the air as I fly. it simply improves the way you fly almost instantly.
Old 04-04-2006, 06:19 AM
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I agree with the other posts. If you are not using rudder/aileron on your turns your just not flying the plane. This definately is the way to lear to fly. Small, large or in between aircraft, this is just as important as learnig to land or fly slow. In my opinion.

Flying season is almost here!!!!

JEB
Old 04-04-2006, 08:01 AM
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I have a simple question, and the last time I asked it, I was accused to tyring to "stir things up".

When you say coordinated turn, do you use opposite rudder?

That also means during the landing approach, you have to reverse that and turn the rudder the way you want the plane to go.

Am I right or wrong?
Old 04-04-2006, 11:20 AM
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vicman
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

When I do it I deflect the rudder in the direction I want the plane to turn and use aileron to keep the wing reasonably level so the turn is flat.
Old 04-04-2006, 12:36 PM
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MajorTomski
 
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

A coordinated turn is one in which the rudder and ailerons are moving the airplane in the same direction, i.e. roll left with aileron, yaw left with rudder. In 1:1 scale the amount of this coordination is indicated by the turn and bank indicator, the 'ball!' is centered in the 'u' shaped glass tube indicating that the G forces are going vertically through the airplane. If the ball's not centered then it's an un coordinated turn.

Many good points made here 'cept one. Some airplanes don't need rudder to perform a scale- like turn. In many full scale airplanes there is a small amount of adverse yaw. That is when you add aileron to go left the nose of the plane actually yaws to the right for the first couple of seconds of the turn. So in that type of aircraft you step on the rudder when you apply aileron to get everything going the same direction at once.

Now since we don't have a way to see anything but ridiculously bad pro or ad verse yaw in a model you really can't tell if rudder is helping or not. In the case of the Kadet LT 40, which still shares its forefathers traits, that being designed from a three channel airplane, rudder usually only increases the roll rate, but doesn't aid in coordinating an aileron only turn.

But it all boils down to the flight characteristics of that particular model.
Old 04-04-2006, 12:39 PM
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Ed_Moorman
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

You need to coordinate the rudder when it is needed. Most RC planes don't need rudder coordination because we usually have strip ailerons and fairly low aspect ratio wings. Planes that will need rudder coordination are those with barn door ailerons and higher aspect ratios.

By the way, I have seen some misunderstanding about the definition of "barn door" ailerons. What is normally meant is not necessarily a wide aileron, but one that is inset in the tip area and usually is from 1/3rd to 1/2 the wing panel span.

With a low aspect ratio wing (short and stubby), we normally don't get enough adverse yaw to be noticed. Also, with strip ailerons, the force is distributed along the wing so again adverse yaw is minimized. Higher speeds require less aileron deflection which also minimizes adverse yaw. 3D and fun fly planes generally roll axially and don't need coordination. The same can be said for most trainers if the speed is kept up.

High aspect ratio wings and especially those with inset, barn door, ailerons like a Cub or many other scale planes, tend to have a good bit of adverse yaw and need coordination.

As for scale planes hanging the nose high, this is usually caused by too small a vertical area and not adverse yaw. Adverse yaw only occurs when the ailerons are deflected. The lack of vertical tail area allows the nose to stay high and not track around in the turn. The effect is like adverse yaw without the ailerons deflected. This causes some people to misinterpret it since rudder coordination in the turn will cure it.
Old 04-04-2006, 12:53 PM
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Cyberwolf
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I totally agree a person needs to use both to coordinate turns,When I train a person thats new to the hobby,they use both sticks from the start .I feel this creates less hastle later on.
There nothing any funner than trying to get a student to use the rudder when they have been taught not to.
Old 04-04-2006, 05:42 PM
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JohnW
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

RedFox, using a mix is not cheating. Using a radio to fly a plane is cheating.

I'm with Ed... the need to coordinate turns is totally plane dependent. The coordination is only required in models that don't yaw properly during a turn. Some planes are naughty and suffer from adverse yaw during turns, i.e. they will yaw left in a right hand turn, etc. In such a case, it is necessary to add rudder to correct the adverse yaw. Likewise, some planes (most sport aerobatics/pattern) due to their design basically require no turn coordination as they don't suffer from large adverse yaws.

This is not to say you should ignore rudder as it is a very important control surface. In fact, it is my favorite control surface.
Old 04-04-2006, 06:02 PM
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Gremlin Castle
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I agree with what John W said in his post. I do find that heavy iron warbirds respond much better at lower speeds such as the landing approach if rudder is used in conjunction with the ailerons to maintain directional control. I also find that many airplanes require less directional control input when the rudder and ailerons are coordinated.
Rudder is also handy for correcting torque and asymetric prop loading during loops and cuban eights.
However, it is not an absolute requirement but merely a refinement of flying techniques.
Old 04-04-2006, 06:57 PM
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redfox435cat
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

When you say coordinated turn, do you use opposite rudder
this is known as cross coupling. a cordinated turn is the ailerons and rudder working together



RedFox, using a mix is not cheating. Using a radio to fly a plane is cheating
that my option and I'm sti sti sticking to it Seriously I tried doing the mix and I couldn't fly the model since cross coupling is very difficult in the air it's brainless but to each his own.
the radio part is right. I still can't get my rudderband powered FF gillow models to fly right[:@]
Old 04-05-2006, 03:47 PM
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Ernie Misner
 
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

Sometimes when I am making a landing approach, I shy away from the rudder because I am afraid of inducing a stall and just want to get on the ground as inexpensively as possible. Am I the only one? So what's your advise..... use the darned rudder MORE and I won't be anymore apt to cause a speed loss/stall at low altitudes than without?

Thanks,

Ernie
Old 04-05-2006, 04:38 PM
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JohnW
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

Rudder is very important on landings, esp cross wind or when you are a bit hot and need to slip to gain drag. I hear the fear about inducing a stall. My suggestion is to practice landing on a "runway" that is 100 feet high or whatever. I.E., practice flying slow and use rudder, slip, etc., but do so at an altitude where you feel safe. Once you get the hang of how your airplane reacts, the fear will diminish on real landings.

Red, I think the mix, and how annoying or productive it is, is dependent upon the plane as much as pilot. Most of what I fly is very well behaved ships, i.e. 2M pattern. With these planes, very small mixes are used to fix very minor issues, like maybe a 2% aileron to rudder mix, etc. I did have a high wing plane I kit bashed to turn it into a unlimited 3D type. It required HUGE mixes to fix KE, aileron only axial roll, etc. By huge, I mean like 40% aileron to rudder mixes an the like. I'll admit on that plane, the mixes sometimes were slightly annoying, but over all I liked the plane better with the mixes in as opposed to out. Besides, things like dual rates are technically mixes, and most don't take issue with that, so I don't get the issue with other mixes. A couple of years ago I flew a borrowed 40% and noticed the plane wasn't even trimmed for level flight, much less trimmed for KE or anything else. When I complained, the owner/pilot told me to "Just fly it you P&^$Y." Funny thing was, he was an awesome pilot, and did so with what I'd consider a horribly setup plane. I can only imagine how well he'd fly if his plane was actually trimmed... ha, probably worse as he is used to untrimmed planes.

Cheers.
Old 04-05-2006, 04:58 PM
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Gremlin Castle
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

Using the rudder properly will reduce the chances of a stall. Using the ailerons only as the primary directional control device when landing or manuevering at slow speed will increase the chance of stall because of the down aileron being more likely to aid in stalling that wing plus the increased drag from the fuselage yawing thru the air as a result of the adverse yaw introduced by the down aileron.
There is no hard fast statement that applies to all airframes. The closest might be "if it flys ok with ailerons it will fly better with aileron and rudder".
ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Sometimes when I am making a landing approach, I shy away from the rudder because I am afraid of inducing a stall and just want to get on the ground as inexpensively as possible. Am I the only one? So what's your advise..... use the darned rudder MORE and I won't be anymore apt to cause a speed loss/stall at low altitudes than without?

Thanks,

Ernie
Old 04-05-2006, 07:22 PM
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Augie11
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I have to agree with a lot of what's posted here. It depends on the plane and the comment about the float Cub is dead on. The rudder is MUCH more effective than the ailerons at low speed and will not only help you avoid a snap on takeoff but also helps keep the plane in a straight line during takeoff. Did you ever see the movie clips of prop planes taking off from a carrier with an on board, rear-facing camera? A LOT of rudder input.

When I was learning to fly years ago, I couldn't land worth a darn trying to keep everything straight with the ailerons. When someone showed me how to use rudder inputs landing became (almost) automatic.
Old 04-05-2006, 08:41 PM
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JPMacG
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I try to make coordinated turns, but for me it is really a guessing game. In full scale you have a ball indicator and seat-of-the-pants feedback. Flying a model there is only visual indication of coordination, and for me that's not very helpful.
Old 04-06-2006, 07:53 AM
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

I agree that rudder control during landing approach is a must. I had to force myself to learn because I was never taught, but now I can make left and right hand approaches using rudder only to make steering corrections. Landings are alot better now.

But when I load up G2 and try to turn a corsair or p-38 with left aileron and left rudder, it just seems to cause a left roll and dive. Thats why I thought opposite rudder seemed to work better.

Any comments?
Old 04-06-2006, 01:38 PM
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Augie11
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

A wise man once told me that 'whatever you do, fly the plane'. That's why I mentioned a lot depends on the plane itself. I had one bipe that needed a touch of coordinated rudder to initiate a turn properly and a tad of opposite rudder to hold that turn under certain wind conditions. This is why I never couple rudder to aileron even though I've heard others swear by that technique.
Old 04-07-2006, 12:11 PM
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Gremlin Castle
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

The" fly the airplane" is very sound advice. Unfortunately, some of us at periods of time become spectators when we should still be the pilot. It is those situations that coupled controls can give that extra margin until the pilot returns to the cockpit.[8D]
Coupled controls can always be overidden when flying the airplane demands it.
ORIGINAL: Augie11

A wise man once told me that 'whatever you do, fly the plane'. That's why I mentioned a lot depends on the plane itself. I had one bipe that needed a touch of coordinated rudder to initiate a turn properly and a tad of opposite rudder to hold that turn under certain wind conditions. This is why I never couple rudder to aileron even though I've heard others swear by that technique.
Old 04-07-2006, 06:03 PM
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Augie11
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

Well said Gremlin. I've sometimes gotten enamored with the plane and forgotten I was in the cockpit as well. Keep 'em flyin'!
Old 04-25-2006, 01:56 PM
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Default RE: How many of you coordinate rudder w/ aileron?

wow i didnt know how important coordinating rudder with ailerons is well you learn something new every day huh but how do you know if your using to much or too little rudder coordination like what alot of you guys said in a plane you have a ball to look at and with r/c there is no ball so ya not to get off topic or any thing but when i went to fly my plane it would always turn to the left would that be the rudder not being strait or what?

p.s. i wasnt windy when i flew, and how many of you guys live in chilliwack?

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