Mad Mad Max

Today at the field, we had a discussion about what a flyer has to demonstrate in order to qualify fly without an instructor. Besides take-offs, landings et al, the subject of dead sticks became a subject of debate. Should the flyer demonstrate a dead stick landing as part of solo qualification?

One group said no because of the potential for plane damage. They suggested that the student learn to fly slowly. And land with the engine at low idle. The other group said that low idle landings are a regular part of the landing process and that a student should know what to do - and do – a dead stick landing.

What does your club require, if anything, that a student flyer has to do in order to qualify to fly solo? And your opinion please if a dead stick landing should be or not required as part of the qualification process.

rwright142

The club I belonged to did expect me to dead stick. I think it is a good thing to practice because it will happen eventually. The slow landings helped me learn how to handle the plane. I think every time you get a new plane you should practice dead sticks with it so you learn how she handles.

Like in your club I had to demonstrate control when taking off and landing plus I had to fly figure-8's without losing/gaining altitude, and also proper pattern flying - downwind, base, final, etc.

WCB

I do all the above when I have a new pilot on the buddy box and before he solos I intentionally put the plane in a bad position such as behind us or too far out and then let the student correct it. It's a real confidence builder and if thesame things happen while he is solo it will be something he has seen before and chances are he won't panic or freeze .

jetmech05

dead stick landings should be part of the training process... not part of the solo qual... I had to do 3 full stops and 3 takeoffs plus a stall recovery...I believe stall recovery is more important than dead sticking

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I think landing deadstick should be mandatory. If you are good enough at low throttle /idle landings, then a deadstick should be no problem. You'll have one, or many, in your flying life, so get to know how to handle them early on. For the purpose of evaluation, a practice deadstick could be a staright-in approach and kill the engine on final. There's something about knowing you can't "go around" that makes you concentrate a bit more on getting it right. Once you can feel confident about an 'easy' deadstick, and start flying on your own and building more experience, you'll be better prepared for those deadsticks that occur when you're in a worse position to get the plane down safely.

feihu

Did you know that all Shuttle landings are dead stick ?

feihu

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

yeah, and it has a glide ratio somewhere between a bus and an anvil

R8893

My Feedback: (20)

We also do an out of trim flight with the student. With the model at a decent altitude the instructor cobbles up the trim settings then gives the transmitter back to the student. He has to get it back in trim without looking at the transmitter. We do a simulated dead stick. At a random time the instructor pulls the throttle to idle and announces, " you lost the engine what are you going to do?" Power is added when student has properly set up for a deadstick, or is in so much trouble that the model is in jeopardy.

alan0899

G'day Max,
Check out this form, this is what we use here in Australia, to signify solo status, It's called Bronze wings, when our pilots can perform more manouvers, & fly in front of themselves, then they can go for Gold wings, this signifies that they can fly in displays, has worked here for many years, & everyone can have a rating if they go to another club, the people there know what level they have achieved.
http://www.maaa.asn.au/mop/forms/MOP...May%202005.pdf
http://www.maaa.asn.au/mop/forms/MOP...Aug%202006.pdf

masonman

I think dead sticks should be apart of learning. Do a few of them an grease the landings. Then one day after you have soloed you can grease it on in an not put other people or models in jeperdy, cause you will be well schooled in that just just as taken off an landing..... I don't know about you guys, but when I'm at 28.000 ft In an american MD-80 if one of the turbines takes a dump i want the guy driveing to be calm an do what he has been taught to do when that kinda thing happens.. Now models are not an MD-80 i now,but it sure is hard to check out your plane or shoot the breeze with the guys at the field an turn your back knowing that there is a plane in the air that might become a 6 pound meat grinder if something happens an the pilot is not well versed to handel it. I have seen some people just freeze up like a computer when there model does something that they didn't make it do. Just my 2 cents but i think they should be ready for anything that model gives them.

jetmech05

lets see single engine in an MD-80 series on takeoff...ART trips taking the de-rate out of the remaining engine.. landing lights automaticlly retract...and alot of rudder..
You know what ever you do for solo quals won't please everyone..and the student /qualed pilot must apply what he has been taught..look above for what I did to solo...now when my 4 Star 60 was new. at departure end of the runway inverted ..wham dead stick. altitude.. 25 ft or so..rolled upright and right into my downwind turn glided to a bit more than mid field ..turned base and then final and brought her to a smooth landing...on the other hand I've seen guys be on base and dead stick...panic and miss the runway.

BillyGoat

Now I’ve never been one for ratings, achievement levels or any type of certified one-up-manship BS.

However I must say I like what the M.A.A.A. has developed.

Without a universal certification you have to take a guest word on how much experience they have. Right now most clubs in the US will let any yahoo with an AMA card fly as a guest. Then you have no idea if they are going to snap roll upon take off right into the pits because they just did there first take off last Tuesday.

This might be a good topic for the fight forum… AKA the AMA forum. Somebody else can post it, I’ll just sit back and watch the name calling.

rclement

My Feedback: (1)

I instruct at the field where I fly and wouldn't put my students through an actual dead stick landing when they are doing their qual flight. Why? Well what's the point? What happens if you have them shut off their engine to try and see if they can make it in and they don't? Now the poor guy's got a broken plane and what did he learn out of it? On the last of the 3 qual flights I have my students just drop their engine down to idle and bring it in. That way if they are not going to make it they can throttle up and go around and try it again. One of the guys that I recently qualified was doing the last of his three flights when his engine shut off just after takeoff. I talked him through it and he got his plane down with minimal impact. So I said "there, now you've done your dead stick landing"

WCB

We don't do actual dead stick landings for training either. If a student can land a TRAINER with the engine running he should be able to glide it in with the engine not running (with enough altitude of course). I've seen students make some of their best landings deadstick. So I don't feel the need to instruct it live. I cover it and tell them what to do but don't make it a live exercise. RClement is right...what if he screws it up? Nothing the instructor can do except help him collect the pieces of his busted plane.
When the student (or anybody else for that matter) runs into trouble is a deadstick on take off and the plane is 10 feet off the ground at or near the end of the runway or the plane is low and slow. That takes finesse on the sticks for a save. We don't instruct that live either. We tell 'em what to do if it happens but we don't demonstrate for obvious reasons.

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

if your not keeping the student in the air long enough to run out of gas a couple times during training your just not haveing as much fun as i am

roknHS

By all means, make a deadstick mandatory for the student..........................just make sure that its mandatory he gets to fly the instructors favorite plane when he's asked to execute it...............maroons

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

Like others, I require the student to simulate the dead stick by simply dropping the throttle on command. I choose the place and time. What I'm looking for in the student is not the ability to return the plane to the field, but the ability to calmly evaluate the situation, and not put the plane someplace where its unsafe. They may have to decide to do a downwind landing in the tall grass. In any event, I don't do this until they are ready to do their solo test, which for us is demonstrating to the instructor they can safely preflight, start, take off, climb to altutude, fly a figure 8 pattern maintaining constant altitude, then perform 3 touch and goes. Finally, the simulated deadstick.

Solo test is simply determing that they are safe enough to practice more flying without the instructor and the buddy box.

Brad

scratchonly

If perfect landings every time was a requirement very few flyers would ever solo.

BillyGoat

Whats a maroon?

perreback

It's "1) a dark brownish-red colour, 2) a large firework that shoots into the air and makes a loud noise, used to attract attention, especially at sea" (Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary).

sharpshooter223

if you ad "ac" after the m and before the a its a type of cookie. i think that the only qualification for being able to fly solo is that the person learning to fly feels comfortable enough to fly solo. from there they can pretty much learn everything else. around here there is a field with no qualification rules or anything, but if you crash because you still dont have the swing of things down then its your own fault.

rcf1958

I've seen deadstick argued many times, and rarely is it noted that a prop that is "dead" or not rotating, has less drag then that big fan you are trying to push at idle thrust. All aircraft have an engine/propeller RPM that simulates a deadstick and it is rarely idle throttle. This precludes the necessity for completely shutting down the engine.

Private Pilot training in the 70's even included instructions to slow the aircraft to stop a windmilling prop so that you could increase glide distance. (granted you had enough altitude)

Shutting down in totally unecessary once you learn the proper rpm setting to simulate a dead prop.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

There is no life onboard the model. What difference does it make if the fledgling can land a dead stick on the runway? We are simply talking about letting a person fly without an instuctor. You don't need a pilots licence to solo a real airplane. You aren't finished with your training. The solo is simply a point where a student is given some freedom to fly alone. Does it mean all instruction is finished ? Does it mean the fledgling should be as capable as a veteran pilot ? The solo is just one step of many. At some point we all must become responsible for our own flying and for our own learning . And that learning will never end. The fledgling should be encouraged to ask questions, mimic, learn, read, and feel at ease in expressing any doubt or concern about any phase of flight that is not progressing for them. It is very possible that a student may exceed the capabilities of their instructor and possibly everyone else at their club. The student must understand that no one but them can determine their limits. And no one but them can find those limits. Placed in the proper perspective, the solo is a proud and memorable day, but only the first of many hurdles the individual will eventually attempt. It does not mean all is understood, that all has been learned, the top of the mountain has been reached. Don't mislead the fledgling into believing training is nearly complete by throwing in a few extra tasks at the time of solo.

bassfisher

My Feedback: (21)

Hopefully, by the time a student has reached the solo stage, they had already experienced a couple of real dead sticks. I have never had a student flying with me that has not had one or two by the time I think they are ready to be kicked out of the nest. Usually, it's from running out of fuel (OK, I tend to sometimes fly a little too long on some flights), but sometimes it is mechanical. At my club, we do not have a dead stick requirement for solo. TO, three loops, the pattern both ways, three rolls, and sucessfully procedure landing. Just to add, normally, even after a student solos, the instructor will stand next to the student for a couple more hours of flighttime. I still like to use the buddy box for a few flights after the solo flight, usually to recover the student while they practice a little more advanced aerobatics or to learn to fly in the wind to teach really slow speed flight. Still three mistakes high.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

I'm with RClement on this one.

Actually, I think you need to sort out the guys who can fly safely from the ones who still need instruction. We were talking about the requirement for "Flying Alone", right?

I've seen guys show up who seem to think it's proper to fly an RC plane as though it were a control line plane. They stand at the middle of the pilot line, take off, turn toward the pilot line, fly over the pits or the shelter, and turn back & fly over the field, and do it all again.

Surprises like that make one think there should be a solo flight test. Deadsticks? I'm having trouble seeing the mandate.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson