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Wind to your back Landings.

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Wind to your back Landings.

Old 04-07-2010, 08:12 AM
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Insanemoondoggie
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Default Wind to your back Landings.

I conceder myself a good pilot and have flown many types of airplanes. I have had my share of crashes and most of them have been , when landing with a strong10 to 20 mph wind at my back . Put 3 planes in ,because I was worried about them crossing into the flight line / pits. The planes were 2 Twist and a4 Star .60 .
I had a guy fly thru my flight station 2 years ago with a ,60 size 300s with a 1.08 on it, wide open. If I had not thrown myself to the ground, he would have hit me square in the chest . Broke the gimbals on my radio and broke the plane in half behind the wing saddle when I fell on top of it. Pretty much gave up flying that yearas it really had me spooked. Last year started getting back into, thats when I started having issues crabbing withthe nose at me and losing planes . I find myself landing as far from the pits as I can , if I have to point the nose at me.
I really need to get this down, as I have no issues with any other maneuvers and even fly heli's and their closer to me than the planes. Any suggestions on a good way get past freaking out when landing with the wind to your back ? I know it sounds silly , but it's driving me nuts .
Old 04-07-2010, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

It sounds far from silly. If it were that easy to change ones thinking Phsyciatrist would be out of work. Thats enough to scare the crap out of anybody. I can think of two things that might help, More time on a simulator, practice by yourself till you get comfortable.It might be the way your runway is oriented that bothers you. I do not like flying on a runway that I always have to look south. The sun bothers the heck out of me and I just cant enjoy myself. Maybe find a field that hardly anyone flies at. Practice the heck out of your landings and do some low,high speed passes. Once your confidence is back up about your ability, you should be more comfortable. As far as getting used to other flyers maybe get into a habit of standing next to a buddy while he flies and have him stand next to you while you fly. That way you feel sombody's got your back.-BW
Old 04-07-2010, 08:49 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

I'd guess the physical answer is tied to being good at using the rudder to control the "weathervane" effect of the fin so the plane is not pointing the nose at you. I am not good with the rudder at all. I do not know how to get past the feeling of being spooked. I tend to stay on the far side of the runway when we have a crosswind from behind, sometimes missing the runway completely.
Old 04-07-2010, 08:55 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

One more thing. I don't know how much you use the rudder but some people don't seem to use it much until landing. Maybe try getting a three channel plane and put the rudder on the left stick where it belongs and fly the crap out of it until your using the rudder ALL of the time. Thats why I start people on a 3 channel with the rudder on the left stick. I want them to understand the rudder is not an option it is a necessity, especially on landing.-BW
Old 04-07-2010, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Considering you had no problems in the past, it's not a matter of missing flying skills, but a matter of psycology.

In that case, why not use a workaround and just land crosswind? Keep the wing that's pointing toward you slightly lower and you'll be fine.
Old 04-07-2010, 09:04 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Robby, on calm days, take your Cub and start practicing side-slipping on landings. The way to do this is: as you're turing to final (Let's say from the left) you're giving right aileron. Before the plane finishes the final turn, feed in opposite rudderand the plane will crab it's way to the runway - in other words, the nose will still be pointing toward the pits, but it will be flying sideways straight down the runway.

Now you will have to balance all 4 controls to maintain this crab (Extra throttle to overcome the additional drag), but once you perfect it, it makes for some GREAT looking landings - especially with a cub.

Once you have the side-slip mastered, you do the exact same thing in a cross-wind landing, only now the wind makes your plane go straight down the runway (Opposite controls for opposite wind directions)
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:36 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Just practice. I would say 1 in 5 can actually do a good job at crosswind landings. Most people get blown or cheat the angle because they are not use to the cross controls.
Old 04-07-2010, 09:49 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

In the sim when I use the rudder I crash, I need practice too yet I'm afraid to do it with my actual plane. I'll get it. I just may still be over controlling as well.
Old 04-07-2010, 10:04 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Hi Insanemoondoggie
I too was crashing my planes when I was landing across the runway because of the wind direction. After much thought and study I concluded that the reason was that I did not know where the plane was relative to the runway because I was landing from a direction I was not very familiar with. I mainly did not know the altitude of the plane relative to the runway, but I also lost ALL MY REFERENCES TO INDICATE MY AIR SPEED. I stalled many times and crashed. If you are landing at an angle toward you, or directly toward you, you have lost your ability to judge air speed. Most RC pilots do not know that their depth perception is only about 17 feet. My planes always land much further away than 17 feet so depth perception is no help at all. I believe many people will not understand what I am writing about. So be it. It is a little technical, but not difficult for R/C pilots. I gave up cross runway landings to compensate for the wind for the two reasons mentioned. I only land from the left or from the right and I plan to touch down directly in front of me. I realized that only when the plane is directly in front of me do I know its altitude relative to the ground, plus I know it is flying at a safe air speed. If the wind is very strong and mostly across the runway I will crab just a little with the rudder/ailerons. I do not bother trying to compensate for drifting across the runway unless I will miss the runway, in which case I abort the landing and try it again. I welcome any comments on these ideas.
Old 04-07-2010, 10:06 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.


ORIGINAL: ShaneLittle

In the sim when I use the rudder I crash, I need practice too yet I'm afraid to do it with my actual plane. I'll get it. I just may still be over controlling as well.
Do you have a three channel plane on your sim? If not use a trainer and disable the ailerons...Just make sure the rudder is on the RUDDER stick.-BW
Old 04-07-2010, 10:21 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie
............Pretty much gave up flying that year as it really had me spooked. Last year started getting back into , thats when I started having issues crabbing with the nose at me and losing planes . I find myself landing as far from the pits as I can , if I have to point the nose at me.
I really need to get this down, as I have no issues with any other maneuvers and even fly heli's and their closer to me than the planes. Any suggestions on a good way get past freaking out when landing with the wind to your back ? I know it sounds silly , but it's driving me nuts .
It is not silly!
To overcome a scary experience is beyond, mastering any technique or controlling rational thinking.
After many years riding motorcycles, somebody involved me into a very bad accident.
It took me a long time to overcome the irrational fear that the same situation could happen again each time I took my bike out for a ride; although it had not happened in all my previous years of riding.
Regardless of how skilful you are, fear can paralyze any proper reaction that you well know how to execute.

I believe there are mental things happening at subconscious level that make the “survival autopilot” kicking in.
I did not see a doctor, but I had to take a ride everyday to go to work; hence, I overcame the fear day after day.
I also believe that the key for recovering is just repeating the uncomfortable action so many times that the “survival autopilot” understands that the “alarm” does not have a reason to be anymore.
I believe doctors call that “shock therapy”.

My concrete advice: Practice crabbing in calm conditions, but always pointing the propeller toward you safely.
Just repeat the exercise as many times as you can, keeping your left thumb ready to liberate the rudder and to kill the engine, if things get ugly.
As you know, for real crosswind from your back conditions, the proper technique is the opposite, just as Mike has explained above.
Note that you will be located at the top of his schematic, fighting the weathercock tendency of the tail to point the propeller toward the flight line.

Also, consider that the crosswind that you mention creates much more turbulence over your model when it is close to the ground, due to the many obstacles that it hits before reaching the landing strip, like canopies, pilot stations, etc.

I hope you regain control, and the full joy of flying very soon.
Old 04-07-2010, 10:28 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.


ORIGINAL: Villa

Hi Insanemoondoggie
I too was crashing my planes when I was landing across the runway because of the wind direction. After much thought and study I concluded that the reason was that I did not know where the plane was relative to the runway because I was landing from a direction I was not very familiar with. I mainly did not know the altitude of the plane relative to the runway, but I also lost ALL MY REFERENCES TO INDICATE MY AIR SPEED. I stalled many times and crashed. If you are landing at an angle toward you, or directly toward you, you have lost your ability to judge air speed. Most RC pilots do not know that their depth perception is only about 17 feet. My planes always land much further away than 17 feet so depth perception is no help at all. I believe many people will not understand what I am writing about. So be it. It is a little technical, but not difficult for R/C pilots. I gave up cross runway landings to compensate for the wind for the two reasons mentioned. I only land from the left or from the right and I plan to touch down directly in front of me. I realized that only when the plane is directly in front of me do I know its altitude relative to the ground, plus I know it is flying at a safe air speed. If the wind is very strong and mostly across the runway I will crab just a little with the rudder/ailerons. I do not bother trying to compensate for drifting across the runway unless I will miss the runway, in which case I abort the landing and try it again. I welcome any comments on these ideas.
I am blind in one eye so I have no depth perception. I like to fly past me to get a reference of airspeed and use shadows as a refence for postion.Here is the begining and end result of a crawl with the wind at my back. With the first picture it looks like the plane is going to my left but it is going straight down the runway. From the moment I bring the throttle to idle for landing I steer with the rudder and only use the ailerons to keep the plane level. I do not bank no matter what the wind is.-BW
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:24 PM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Learning to fly a plane using the rudder to turn does not teach you how to properly fly a four channel plane. Don't get me wrong three channel planes are great for learning as they are more stable and easyer to control, and this gets you past the unique difficulties of flying from the perspecive of the ground. The rudder, however is used for coordinating turns, correcting for turning tendencies, steering on the ground, and forward or side slipping. Learning to turn in the air with rudder is counter productive. Yes many people do not use the rudder, Either properly or at all. This is due to no/poor training, not enough practice, or just plain lazyness. The first thing every new pilot needs to learn is what each control is for and how they need to work in unison. After that it is all about practice.
Old 04-08-2010, 04:18 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

As you have learned, wind over the back is the worst form of crosswind. It tends to weathervane aircraft, in take-off or landing, into the pilot stands. Hazardous. When I fly in crosswind I first practise the cross-control process. If I have to THINK about that process on landing approach, I will never get it done right. I have already told myself which directions I will put the rudder and ailerons. For over the back cross-wind and an approach from the right, the rudder is pushed to the right, the aileron opposite. I remember this orientaion by remembering that the rudder stick is pushed 'into the wind'. Visuallize it. The aileron is always opposite and enough to see a bit of upwind wingtip droop. Be careful not to do all this with the plane too slow as the stall speed is going to go up and in asymetric flight (while in slip) one wing will stall before the other. Not a good thing near the ground. I try to start my cross control at or near the flair. Remember too, that in a slip the plane is going to want to slowdown more rapidly.

Practise and have fun doing it.

Bedford
Old 04-08-2010, 05:44 AM
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Insanemoondoggie
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Thanks for all the replies . My problem is in my head , not with using rudder . . Once the plane crosses the pit area with the nose crabbing in , the butterfly's start kicking in . Just finished a CG clipped wing Cub, my second one and well maiden it this week. I'm hoping ,that the Cubs slower speeds well help me over come my jittery nerves .
I also have lots of hours in full size planes and use to own a TriPacer that I flew off my farm but that was 20 years ago. I'm also retired aircraft mechanic . What I,m trying to say is, it,s in my head , not my lack of flying knowledge . I,m going to try as Minnflyer suggested and use the Cub .Also someone mentioned lowering a wing into the wind, I'll try that with a low wing as that should help push the plane away from the pits when landing.
All my planes are set a tad tail heavy , I,m wondering if I shouldn't set one up a little nose heavy and try that , till I get past my spookiness ? Looks like it's going to be pretty windy the rest of the week and I.m going to go out and try to get these crosswind landings down. Wish me luck ! I need it.
Old 04-08-2010, 05:56 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Try concentrating on the direction the plane is moving and not pointing. Think of the plane as a whole object in the air and not an arrow pointing at you. Banking the plane on takeoff under full power is OK. On landing it doesn't sound like a good idea.-BW
Old 04-08-2010, 06:20 AM
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Insanemoondoggie
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Thanks BW , I,m going to try fly circuits a few mistakes high , till I get it down. Your right , I need to quit focusing on the nose and start looking at the whole plane. When the nose is pointed at me, all I see is a 300S coming at me at over 120 mph, then myfeet want togetme out of there . I really enjoy this hobby and hope to get past this .
Old 04-08-2010, 06:53 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie

Thanks for all the replies . My problem is in my head , not with using rudder . . Once the plane crosses the pit area with the nose crabbing in , the butterfly's start kicking in . Just finished a CG clipped wing Cub, my second one and well maiden it this week. I'm hoping ,that the Cubs slower speeds well help me over come my jittery nerves .
I also have lots of hours in full size planes and use to own a TriPacer that I flew off my farm but that was 20 years ago. I'm also retired aircraft mechanic . What I,m trying to say is, it,s in my head , not my lack of flying knowledge . I,m going to try as Minnflyer suggested and use the Cub .Also someone mentioned lowering a wing into the wind, I'll try that with a low wing as that should help push the plane away from the pits when landing.
All my planes are set a tad tail heavy , I,m wondering if I shouldn't set one up a little nose heavy and try that , till I get past my spookiness ? Looks like it's going to be pretty windy the rest of the week and I.m going to go out and try to get these crosswind landings down. Wish me luck ! I need it.[img][/img]
Some good advise being given here. Minnflyer, love the graphic. Here is my 2 cents. Relax. Seems you know how to fly. Don't force a bad approach into what often results, a bad landing. If the line is bad, go around. This means that on a windy day, shorten your flight time so you have plenty of fuel reserve, and aren't forced into worrying about running out. Stress you don't need. This will give you time for two, three, or more approaches, to get a good line, power setting, sink rate, and crab (not bank) going, in a crosswind. You will need a little more power on final on a windy day, but the line should be no different than any other day, just with a little crab (not bank) in that crosswind. It is all about holding the line. A little more power, a little more rudder. Your the boss, so put that plane where YOU want it to be, in the air, and on the ground. You can Doooo it.

Remember this also, crab will require a little opposite aileron to keep the wings level. Practice this at altitude. Try doing flat circles on a calm day, in both directions. I do. When proficient, crabs on those crosswind landings will be no big deal. I promise.
Old 04-08-2010, 07:37 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

What is missing here is RC flying. We don't fly behind the flight line so crosswind landings with a wind from behind the flight line require the turn from outside( Downwind well in front of pilot and runway) to base to final to switch to windward wing down rudder away from the flight line. At our field no flying is allowed behind the flight line ever. So you have to switch after your turn to final to get your windward wing down. The wind in your face is always the easier RC landing because your turn from base always has the correct windward wing down.

As far as the mental goes:

1 Fly only with a spotter
2 Only while pilots you know and trust are up.

Good luck!
Old 04-08-2010, 07:45 AM
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Insanemoondoggie
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

This is just what I needed to hear. I set up a nice line with a nice crab going and then , when I get close to the pits my mind quits thinking about flying and worry about hitting someone, or myself., when I should just keep flying the plane to the ground .
I wish I had posted this a year ago and asked for help . Sometimes the answer is just staring you in the face , but you just need someone else to show it to you. I'll be hooking up with Minnflyer and RCKen in July, if I don't have it worked out by then, maybe I can talk then into some Buddy-box time. Well be a first for me on that side of the box, but if thats what it takes , thats what it takes. Thanks for taking time and allthe help , I admit , it is kind of and odd situation..
ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie

t.[img][/img]
It is all about holding the line. A little more power, a little more rudder. Your the boss, so put that plane where YOU want it to be, in the air, and on the ground. You can Doooo it..
Old 04-08-2010, 07:50 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

With a direct cross wind, makes no difference weather you make a right turn to final or a left. Either way, it is all about lining up on the center line, and keeping it there.

AMA rules at almost every club dictate no flying over or behind the flight line. An exception is one club I belong to that is on a full scale grass strip airport site. When a full scale is on final approch to 27, or taking off on 9, anyone flying is required to move behind and east of the flight line to yield. Presents no problems.
Old 04-08-2010, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

HI FLEW OFF PAVED runways most of the time- so with a cross wind the touch down area is greatly reducedYOU CAN ALWAYS fly into the wind to the runway and then turn onto the runway when you reach it(into the wind gives you the most stable control over the plane -and a good thing for beginners ) A cross wind will be easier to deal with if you determine which direction the wind is going to blow youkeep the wing slightly low -that the wind is blowing on -so the wind does not get under the wingyou must also adjust your turn from base to final so that you have the wind blowing you to the center of the runway on your final for example : if landing from the left with the wind at your back you need the plane to be on the left side of the runway -now the wind will move you to the runways center on finalif landing from the left and the wind is blowing on your face you need to be on the right of the runwayso the plane is blown to you on final landing is the biggest challange we face with wind and conditions that are always changing -sometimes from minute to minute ( watch the wind sock ) do keep in mind you are going SLOW ON FINAL ( gliding )so you should not do to much damage to the plane-do look for the plane starting to rock back and fortha good sign you are about to stalltime to give a bleep of throttle to increase foward motion or the plane will stall -and drop out on you( hit hard or crash ) keep in mind your idle speed should be up enough to keep the plane flying (and needs to be adjusted based on wind velosity before take off )- hope my .02 helps some flying RC for 20 years A LOT ENJOY REGARDS TONY "the omega man " think pink ! !
Old 04-08-2010, 10:29 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Robbie, I have not been out at your field, so I may be totally off, and I know that you are a better pilot then I am, having said that, is there an area that you can land that would avoid the cross wind landing? At our field we have a big area where we can land in the grass next to us, so basicaly the flight line is at the inside corner of a big L. Our field should be dried out in a couple of weeks, Iwould love to have you come down and try there if you are interested.

Good luck.

Jon
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:05 AM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie

This is just what I needed to hear. I set up a nice line with a nice crab going and then , when I get close to the pits my mind quits thinking about flying and worry about hitting someone, or myself., when I should just keep flying the plane to the ground .
I wish I had posted this a year ago and asked for help . Sometimes the answer is just staring you in the face , but you just need someone else to show it to you. I'll be hooking up with Minnflyer and RCKen in July, if I don't have it worked out by then, maybe I can talk then into some Buddy-box time. Well be a first for me on that side of the box, but if thats what it takes , thats what it takes. Thanks for taking time and all the help , I admit , it is kind of and odd situation..
ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU

ORIGINAL: Insanemoondoggie

t.[img][/img]
It is all about holding the line. A little more power, a little more rudder. Your the boss, so put that plane where YOU want it to be, in the air, and on the ground. You can Doooo it..
Your on the right track now, and that is all that counts. Remember, power (throttle setting) is the antidote for wind velocity. If wind is pushing you, a little more crab, and a little more power is all you need, to HOLD THAT LINE. Power will NOT increase your ground speed in that situation. A soft landing will still be possible.

Who wants boring old calm days all the time. Happy landings.
Old 04-08-2010, 12:15 PM
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Default RE: Wind to your back Landings.

Minnreefer,

Amazing flying field, and look at those runways wow. They look like tarmac if I'm not wrong? It's beautiful.


Mody

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