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Why so down on young guns?

Old 04-22-2010, 08:52 PM
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Wyoming Cowboy
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Default Why so down on young guns?

It's been my experience that it is getting harder and harder for the aspiring young pilots to get into R/C flying. I've seen it discussed in other threads and have experienced it myself. In general, the guys in my club were helpful in getting me started. However there are some that seem to have some kind of prejudice towards younger guys coming into the hobby. They act as if we don't know what we're doing. I myself have been in the hobby for three years now and soloed when I was 17. My dad works for Continental so I knew much about flight dynamics and I have several hours on both R/C and Microsoft simulators. I've even been at the controls of my Uncle's full-size 182. I had a trainer when I was 14 and it was like pulling teeth to get an instructor. I switched clubs and now found a more helpful group. But I just don't see why the kids are looked down on, is that what we want for the future of the hobby?
Old 04-22-2010, 09:08 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

I wonder if some people feel 'threatened' by the faster learning curves of the newer generations....
Old 04-22-2010, 09:11 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

I would hope not, Im only 24 and I got my wings when I was 11. There are guys at my club that are older but have few years experiance and they treat me like Im a rookie when I've got 15 years at the controls. As far as new guys go, My club encourages them to ask for help but most of them won't. Unforuntately, with the price of arfs and how easy they are to find,buy and build, I find alot of rookies get in other there heads with planes they are not ready to fly, As a result end up walking out to the pile of balsa with a garbage bag. I ve got no problems with new pilots as long as they don't become dangerious or can't handle constructive critizom. I Hope to see young kids get into this hobby because it is alot better then doing drugs or drinking. Seems youth today needs more guidance and a time consuming hobby haha
Old 04-22-2010, 10:06 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

Lane,

That depends on the specific group of individuals, how they see the young pilots, and how those young guys introduce and act themselves.

My experience has been the opposite; where I fly, children, teenagers and young adults have been very welcome, trained and supported.

Don't pay too much attention to the negative side of individuals or groups; try to have fun and enjoy flying and learning.[sm=wink_smile.gif]
Old 04-23-2010, 12:24 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

I haven't seen it. The clubs I have belonged to are very happy to see younger pilots. One thing I won't do any longer is teach or train pilots that are too young to drive and can't get there own planes and gear to the field. Mom and dad want me to teach them and then think I'm going to make room for them every time I go to the field. To do so I have to leave my own planes and gear behind to make room for them and there stuff. Other then that little problem I don't mind teaching youngsters to fly but I'm no ones weekend baby sitter. The field I fly at these days has a lot of younger pilots and they are more then welcome.
Old 04-23-2010, 07:16 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?


ORIGINAL: Lane Horneck

It's been my experience that it is getting harder and harder for the aspiring young pilots to get into R/C flying. I've seen it discussed in other threads and have experienced it myself. In general, the guys in my club were helpful in getting me started. However there are some that seem to have some kind of prejudice towards younger guys coming into the hobby. They act as if we don't know what we're doing. I myself have been in the hobby for three years now and soloed when I was 17. My dad works for Continental so I knew much about flight dynamics and I have several hours on both R/C and Microsoft simulators. I've even been at the controls of my Uncle's full-size 182. I had a trainer when I was 14 and it was like pulling teeth to get an instructor. I switched clubs and now found a more helpful group. But I just don't see why the kids are looked down on, is that what we want for the future of the hobby?
You have found two different clubs, that's all.

Many clubs recruit new folks and have training programs and equipment.

Some clubs do not. One example is the Weak Signals club, that puts on the Toledo show. As I understand, they have no dues, no beginners, and everyone is required to work the Toledo show, as a condition of membership.

And by the way, as Grey Beard pointed out, young people vary. Some have supportive parents that drive them to the field, others expect a lot from the club (and that results in the club being less willing to accommodate them.)

You will not find a club that requires members to train new people or youngsters as a condition of membership.

It is likely that willing instructors can be found. Those instructors should be treated like the valuable resource they are.

Good luck,
Dave Olson
Old 04-23-2010, 07:27 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

That's a valid point. The guy who taught me said he'd never seen someone get it so fast. I put four flights in on a buddy box before he pulled the cord and told me to fly it. My first landings were less than excellent but I got it eventually. The other club I was in just seemed to be a bunch of older guys who didn't have time, or rather wouldn't make time, for a new guy. I was constantly told, "well, I've got another project I'm busy with" or "Maybe you could come up on Saturday." [I come on Saturday and noone shows up]. One guy even told me not-so-kindly that I should take up cars first to get the general idea down before I spend money on a bird. 1. I didn't have any interest in a vehicle of any kind. 2. Why even spend money on one of those? I hope that clubs like this are few and far between, although it seems that every club has a few guys who just won't fly when a young guy goes up. There are 3 or 4 guys in my current clubwho will pack up and leave when I show up. Never say anything but just leave.
Old 04-23-2010, 07:36 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

I know where you're coming from andunderstand your point. However the first club I was in seemed to beexclusively guys that somewhat like you,were not interested in taking the young guy on. I'm notassociating youwith them, I know you said you used to train & I have alot of respect for the guys who are willing to spend the time to do it. I understand your reasoning for getting out of it. But these other guys: they had their own stuff and wouldn't bother to take 10 minutes away from their bird to be helpful in any way. I was surprised.
Old 04-23-2010, 07:43 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

My question I guess is how does a club like Toledo expect to keep their numbers up? Do they even have applications? I don't see how you can operate that way. And I s'pose if a new guy does approach them, they are told to look elsewhere. Regardless of how much farther it is. I just don't think that's right. The AMA tells you to find a club with a certified instructor and the club tells you they won't help you.
Old 04-23-2010, 09:34 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?



Wow...yeah Iagree with you 100%. 15 years and they still give you flak? That's pathetic...clubs should encourage youth and get them off of the Wii/Playstation for awhile at least.

Old 04-23-2010, 09:42 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

Lane, hit quote then type in your post so we know who and what you are talking about. No club members are required to teach or have an instructor. A lot of clubs are formed around a bunch of retired guys that don't even fly, just come out and BS between themselves. They will tell you everything you are doing wrong but couldn't show you how to do it if there lives depended on it, that's the peanut gallery. Some clubs are set up to teach new pilots, some aren't. One of my clubs had a trainer and buddy box but no one there flew well enough to teach you except one guy, you didn't want to learn from him anyway!! Another club had a couple instructors that would teach but you needed your own plane and gear plus the buddy cord that would fit the instructors TX, they offered only the instructor. I have never met anyone who resented the fact young people learned quicker then the oldfarts, it's one of the first things I tell new students, kids today are on a computer with a joy stick before they can talk, we didn't even have TVs growing up, these are new fangled things to us. Most all of us at my field land and stay grounded when a small group of young men come out to fly. These young men aren't very good and all they like is to see how fast they can go, they love it when they have a mid air!! No BS, they really get off on all the nice colors floating down. So far they have only hit each other but none of us will risk flying a plane worth thousands of dollars so these zoomy boys can have a target with there little ARFs. It goes on and on but the fact is, no one needs to be nice to you. Perhaps you are thought of as a butthead?? If you tick people off you will be shunned just so you don't come back. It may not be the people at the field as much as you think?
Old 04-23-2010, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

There are 3 or 4 guys in my current club who will pack up and leave when I show up. Never say anything but just leave.
Kinda sounds like there is more to this story than is being told.
Old 04-23-2010, 09:58 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?


ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

Lane, hit quote then type in your post so we know who and what you are talking about. No club members are required to teach or have an instructor. A lot of clubs are formed around a bunch of retired guys that don't even fly, just come out and BS between themselves. They will tell you everything you are doing wrong but couldn't show you how to do it if there lives depended on it, that's the peanut gallery. Some clubs are set up to teach new pilots, some aren't. One of my clubs had a trainer and buddy box but no one there flew well enough to teach you except one guy, you didn't want to learn from him anyway!! Another club had a couple instructors that would teach but you needed your own plane and gear plus the buddy cord that would fit the instructors TX, they offered only the instructor. I have never met anyone who resented the fact young people learned quicker then the oldfarts, it's one of the first things I tell new students, kids today are on a computer with a joy stick before they can talk, we didn't even have TVs growing up, these are new fangled things to us. Most all of us at my field land and stay grounded when a small group of young men come out to fly. These young men aren't very good and all they like is to see how fast they can go, they love it when they have a mid air!! No BS, they really get off on all the nice colors floating down. So far they have only hit each other but none of us will risk flying a plane worth thousands of dollars so these zoomy boys can have a target with there little ARFs. It goes on and on but the fact is, no one needs to be nice to you. Perhaps you are thought of as a butthead?? If you tick people off you will be shunned just so you don't come back. It may not be the people at the field as much as you think?
I should hope not. I just buzz around in the normal traffic pattern. Maybe roll or loop a few times but that's it. Kids who are speed demons like you described above I have no respect for and don't deserve to be in the hobby. When I started I had a Hobbico Superstar RTF. I had the radio and everything I just needed a buddy box and someone to fly it with me and the guys I talked to always had an excuse to get out of it. I asked if there was an instructor and they named a few guys or would point, "yeah so-and-so could prob'ly take you up." I'd talk to them and set-up countless days when I would show up to the field and they never came. I left after one year and now am in a more helpful club but those 3 or 4 guys just won't associate with me or any of the other younger guys.
Old 04-23-2010, 10:03 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?


ORIGINAL: WCB

There are 3 or 4 guys in my current club who will pack up and leave when I show up. Never say anything but just leave.
Kinda sounds like there is more to this story than is being told.
Hardly, I don't fly erratically or in any way that would discourage them from flying or be uncomfortable sharing airspace. I actually am more interested in scale flight rather than the high-alpha aerobats. I've tried to be as nice as I can be...they just have something "against" us? I don't know...?
Old 04-23-2010, 10:14 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

"Respect for the rights of others means peace." - Benito Juarez

As you are respectful and courteous to others, on the ground and in the air, they will know you better.

I have lived half a century and known thousands of persons of different cultures, and I can tell you this:
Rejection will be present in your entire life, learn how to ignore it, or you will be controlled by others for long time.
Just concentrate in your own good behaviour, what others think about you, is none of your bussiness.

Be good, be well, be safe, learn to be an awesome pilot, enjoy good people (there are many out there), enjoy life!
Old 04-23-2010, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

ORIGINAL: Lane Horneck
It's been my experience that it is getting harder and harder for the aspiring young pilots to get into R/C flying.
We're a small club with about 30 members. We have a few excellent instructors. We have a buddy box and cords compatible with Futaba and Hitec. Some members may have cords and boxes compatible with other brands.

We do not have a club trainer for students to use. We expect new people to have their own stuff and their own transportation.

Students and instructors exchange phone numbers and coordinate schedules so they rarely have situations where one person shows up and the other does not.

Showing up at the field and saying, "I'm here, can anyone train me today?" may or may not get a 'yes' depending on who is there.

Carrell
Old 04-23-2010, 11:53 AM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?



Thru the years training at our club has gone from someone just showing up and we would get them started to, as far as I can tell, little formal instruction and generally that seems to be incomplete. I trained people for years. All they had to do was ask. We had a youth build to fly program for years, sadly that ended. I stopped instructing a couple years ago when my 24 year old son developed cancer and his needs came first. One of the problems I always had with younger pilots was their lack of family support. I cannot tell you how many times I would arrive at the field ready to instruct but the student, who was dependent on getting a ride from his parents, was a no show. My experience says that for the most part a younger pilot whose father or mother does not fly will not continue with RC flying. But any young pilot who can get back and forth will be taught to fly and given the same respect as any other pilot gets, and the same amount of ribbing when they are solo that anyone else gets. At least that is how they were treated when I was the Head Instructor.

Old 04-23-2010, 12:05 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

Just a couple of thoughts. Teaching R C to some can be difficult and quite stressful. A responsibility for the aircraft is sometimes a hard thing to assume. It's not for everyone. The second thing is that where I learnedto fly tremendous pressure to fly safely was put on everyone, and trust was hard to come by. One screw up and the field could be lost to everyone. The regulars treated all the newbies with trepidation. This was really not their fault, just a sign of our lawsuit happy times.And by the way, the guys who can't fly but tell you how- we call them the "Bench of Wisdom" and every club comes equipped with them.
Old 04-23-2010, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?


ORIGINAL: carrellh

ORIGINAL: Lane Horneck
It's been my experience that it is getting harder and harder for the aspiring young pilots to get into R/C flying.
We're a small club with about 30 members. We have a few excellent instructors. We have a buddy box and cords compatible with Futaba and Hitec. Some members may have cords and boxes compatible with other brands.

We do not have a club trainer for students to use. We expect new people to have their own stuff and their own transportation.

Students and instructors exchange phone numbers and coordinate schedules so they rarely have situations where one person shows up and the other does not.

Showing up at the field and saying, "I'm here, can anyone train me today?" may or may not get a 'yes' depending on who is there.

Carrell
Glad to hear that your club is like that. I think that should be the policy everywhere. It'sperfectly reasonableto ask that a student provide their own plane and transportation to and from the field. The first club I was with was NOTHING like that.
Old 04-23-2010, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

I have been an instructor. I spent one day a week for three seasons at the field teaching new people to fly using a club trainer. The problem with some young people is they want to learn BUT do not want to do what it takes to learn the proper and safe technique to be a successful and safe pilot. Many have a short attention span and go through a "phase." If the parent is not interested I generally do not teach the child UNLESS he has his own plane and a AMA card. I know then at least they had made some commitment. People who teach can BURN out when they see no fruit from their labor.

Now days I do not even teach people UNLESS they have AMA and their own gear. I will furnish a cord and dummy box. We have other instructors that work with non AMA members now for introductory flights.

Out of the hundred plus I have worked with since 1989 only a handful are still flying. My instructor and I still fly together regularly. I encourage the young people to learn. I understand what is being said. I have seen that too. I have been treated that way too. I am now almost 50.

I taught my instructors kids on numerous occassions because they did not want to listen to dad. I am more than happy to teach as long as they are going to commit to it. Nothing makes me feel better than to see one of my students come out and fly in a safe manner. It gives me great satisfaction.

I will commit to teach if they commit to learn and continue flying.
Old 04-23-2010, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

An afterthought to my previous post. I hear this one all the time. "That hobby is to expensive." I just smile and say. "This hobby is not expensive if you get with someone who has been around and show you how to do it." I have bought RTF airplanes for less than $50.00 and bought people out completely for under $300.00. The mind set of the "general" public is this hobby is very expensive. The reason for this is they see all the Jets and high dollar planes at shows and guys are bragging how much money they have in it. Scares people away.

Money is always a factor. One should keep that in mind when dealing with new people. I do.
Old 04-23-2010, 01:31 PM
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ORIGINAL: Limey

Just a couple of thoughts. Teaching R C to some can be difficult and quite stressful. A responsibility for the aircraft is sometimes a hard thing to assume. It's not for everyone. The second thing is that where I learnedto fly tremendous pressure to fly safely was put on everyone, and trust was hard to come by. One screw up and the field could be lost to everyone. The regulars treated all the newbies with trepidation. This was really not their fault, just a sign of our lawsuit happy times.And by the way, the guys who can't fly but tell you how- we call them the "Bench of Wisdom" and every club comes equipped with them.
I can see that. Certainly safety should be the number 1 priority about getting your wings. Just going through other threads I've seen it come up from an issue of whether to restrict the age at which you can fly to 18, to whether instructors are a necessary part of a club. As for the 1st point I think that's utterly ridiculous. Maybe setting it at 16 would be ok. That way the student can get to and from the field. If the parents are supportive though I see no problem with say a 14 year old learning.When it comes toinstructors, I think every club should ATLEAST offer the service to teach. A club without an instructor is just unfair & pointless. A student may end up having to drive twice as far to another club because the closest club won't take time to show them how. That's just not right. Our club now has approximately 120 members and 3 are considered instructors. They are all great, more than helpful guys. I do think that a mere 3 out of 120 is a rather poor number though. Imyself will beteaching a pastor how to fly this summer.
Old 04-23-2010, 01:36 PM
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ORIGINAL: oldvet70



Thru the years training at our club has gone from someone just showing up and we would get them started to, as far as I can tell, little formal instruction and generally that seems to be incomplete. I trained people for years. All they had to do was ask. We had a youth build to fly program for years, sadly that ended. I stopped instructing acouple years ago when my 24 year old son developed cancer and his needs came first. One of the problems I always had with younger pilots was their lack of family support. I cannot tell you how many times I would arrive at the field ready to instruct but the student, who was dependent on getting a ride from his parents, was a no show. My experience says that for the most part a younger pilotwhose father or mother does not fly will not continue withRC flying.But any young pilot who can get back and forth will be taught to fly and given the same respect as any other pilot gets, and the same amount of ribbing when they are solo that anyone else gets. At least that is how they were treated when I was the Head Instructor.

Sorry to hear about your son. I agree with you there that transportation should be available.In my early experience, I was the one showing up with no instructor to fly with which I found to be totally unacceptable. Maybe once or twice but not on a regular basis.
Old 04-23-2010, 01:42 PM
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ORIGINAL: RCER88

An afterthought to my previous post. I hear this one all the time. "That hobby is to expensive." I just smile and say. "This hobby is not expensive if you get with someone who has been around and show you how to do it." I have bought RTF airplanes for less than $50.00 and bought people out completely for under $300.00. The mind set of the "general" public is this hobby is very expensive. The reason for this is they see all the Jets and high dollar planes at shows and guys are bragging how much money they have in it. Scares people away.

Money is always a factor. One should keep that in mind when dealing with new people. I do.
I hope there are more guys like this out there. At the club I'm at now you can't fly without an AMA card and I agree with that policy. Commitment is key. Unless some extraordinary circumstances come along, I plan to be in the hobby for years to come. I also know that it must be a thrill to see a kid get up on his own and fly.
Old 04-23-2010, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: Why so down on young guns?

Interesting thread.

I might wonder, Lane, if it's not your age, but rather your experience (or lack thereof). I've been associated with LOTS of different organizations. A common theme in many of them appears to be that there will always be a clique of individuals who possess a degree of knowledge that a newcomer does not have - and they will look down on that individual until they've been around long enough to "pay their dues". Of course, you would NEVER see that in highschool / college, right? lol.

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