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help needed with engine and esc options to work with a 4-5kg boat

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help needed with engine and esc options to work with a 4-5kg boat

Old 02-06-2015, 08:51 PM
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jamie66
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Default help needed with engine and esc options to work with a 4-5kg boat



Hi for a while now I have been struggling to find a motor/esc package which will run my boat at cruising speed for more than 10 or so minutes without over heating I have tried running smaller propellers at full power and tried bigger props at a lower speed but I always end up with the same result. My boat is between 4-5kgs made out of fiber glass and acrylic. I have used various 540 brushed motors but they all seam to struggle. I assume I may need to run twins which I would prefer not to as that would mean a complete rebuild of the internal structures and basically starting from scratch again. I have also tried various water cooling systems such as cooper pipe coils ect with a water pump keeping the water flowing. Wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what to do/use to keep it running at a good cruising speed for as long as possible thanks.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:36 AM
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mfr02
 
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You need a bigger motor. A 600 series, maybe a 700. I have a similar size boat that will cruise fast (a bit over walking speed) for almost 1 hour, with some planing runs thrown in using a 7 cell 4800mAH pack. I'm not sure what the motor is, I got the boat second hand and the motor lacks a label, but the can is 6.5cm long. It uses a 30mm two blade prop. Ensuring that the prop shaft is properly lubed with light oil rather than grease probably helps. Overcoming the braking effect of a heavily greased prop shaft uses a lot of energy that turns up as heat in the motor. In a cruising type boat, with everything set up right and enough motor, there is rarely any need for water cooling.
Old 02-07-2015, 08:05 PM
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jamie66
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ahh ok thankyou for that, any idea on where I would find such motors? and on the esc to run them or would a standard esc do the job? also would appreciate any further advice or tips anyone else has to offer thanks. also wondering if there is a brushless motor package that would suit my boat? and if they would handle turning a 30-40mm prop.

Last edited by jamie66; 02-07-2015 at 09:07 PM.
Old 02-08-2015, 02:54 AM
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Being in the UK, any searches that I do tend to have a strong UK bias. This might not be useful to you, a whereabouts in your profile can be useful. I have found http://www.componentshop.co.uk/ and http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/ to have a good range and prices, but they just involve "local" postage to me.
Old 02-09-2015, 12:09 AM
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jamie66
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Thanks again for the helpful reply am getting in contact with component shop to see if they can help me further. Any further information is welcome thanks
Old 02-17-2015, 02:10 AM
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Hi Jamie

Go brushless, I am using a 3639-1100kv motor, 60A car ESC with reverse,5800mah 3S (11.1volt) battery with low volts alarm and a 38mm x 1.4 pitch prop.
All from Hobbyking.
This with give you the power you require and a long run time.
Note connecting the ESC to the motor straight connect the centre wire to the centre wire of the ESC and cross over the other two, this will run the motor the correct way.
Good Luck.
Old 02-18-2015, 12:27 AM
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jamie66
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Hi thanks for the reply just wondering what length/weight/style of boat yours is and what kind of speed and run time you get out of it, just so I can make comparisons cheers
Old 02-18-2015, 02:53 AM
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Hi Jamie
My boat is a off shore racer hull deep vee, length 850mm, width 230mm, weight was about 2.5 KG, run time over half hour.
Just upgraded to a 3648-1450KV motor all the rest to same, running in 75mm waves the boat drives from one wave to the next, like a real off shore racer.
But the run time has dropped to about 20 minutes, but, speed comes a price!!
Had a 40mm x 1.4 pitch alloy prop to test,but, the drive dog was to wide so I ordered a new one from Hobbyking(my favourite hobby store) .
Balancing your boat, deep vee like a balance point about third of the length from the stern is a good starting point.
If the weight is to far to the stern the bow will bounce up and down.
If the prop requires about 4-6 degrees negative to the hull to straight drive the boat in the water.
If the lifts the bow in the turns negative the rudder to the hull(the bottom of the rudder to the bow of the boat).
Old 02-18-2015, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by canabus
Hi Jamie
My boat is a off shore racer hull deep vee, length 850mm, width 230mm, weight was about 2.5 KG, run time over half hour.
Just upgraded to a 3648-1450KV motor all the rest to same, running in 75mm waves the boat drives from one wave to the next, like a real off shore racer.
But the run time has dropped to about 20 minutes, but, speed comes a price!!
Had a 40mm x 1.4 pitch alloy prop to test,but, the drive dog was to wide so I ordered a new one from Hobbyking(my favourite hobby store) .
Balancing your boat, deep vee like a balance point about third of the length from the stern is a good starting point.
If the weight is to far to the stern the bow will bounce up and down.
If the prop requires about 4-6 degrees negative to the hull to straight drive the boat in the water.
If the lifts the bow in the turns negative the rudder to the hull(the bottom of the rudder to the bow of the boat).
Is this relevant to the 4-5Kg displacement, non planing type cruising boat in the OP?
Old 02-18-2015, 07:58 PM
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Hi Jamie

All relevant but go for the 3639-1100kv (800Watts)12210rpm on 3s, the 3648-1450kv(1600watts)16095rpm on 3s(11.1volt) battery.
Old 04-07-2015, 01:28 AM
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Hi mfr02 I am still trying to decide on what options are better i think the brushed motors 700-800 series will be good for what i need i am hoping but before i order these engines i am unsure of what esc to run or how to choose an esc ect so wondering if maybe you had some advice on this cheers
Jamie
Old 04-07-2015, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mfr02
You need a bigger motor. A 600 series, maybe a 700. I have a similar size boat that will cruise fast (a bit over walking speed) for almost 1 hour, with some planing runs thrown in using a 7 cell 4800mAH pack. I'm not sure what the motor is, I got the boat second hand and the motor lacks a label, but the can is 6.5cm long. It uses a 30mm two blade prop. Ensuring that the prop shaft is properly lubed with light oil rather than grease probably helps. Overcoming the braking effect of a heavily greased prop shaft uses a lot of energy that turns up as heat in the motor. In a cruising type boat, with everything set up right and enough motor, there is rarely any need for water cooling.

Hi mfr02 I am still trying to decide on what options are better i think the brushed motors 700-800 series will be good for what i need i am hoping but before i order these engines i am unsure of what esc to run or how to choose an esc ect so wondering if maybe you had some advice on this cheers
Jamie
Old 04-07-2015, 03:19 AM
  #13  
canabus
 
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Thumbs up Go Brushless

Originally Posted by jamie66
Hi mfr02 I am still trying to decide on what options are better i think the brushed motors 700-800 series will be good for what i need i am hoping but before i order these engines i am unsure of what esc to run or how to choose an esc ect so wondering if maybe you had some advice on this cheers
Jamie
Hi Jamie66
Brush motors will not get you a good run time with a good cruise speed.
My boat started with a 540 brush motor and 40mm x 1.4 pitch prop via a gearbox.
Run time was about 10 minutes and the speed was walking pace.
As in my other replies, I changed to brushless motor.
As for ESC's I like the Hobbyking 60A car ones with reverse, nice and small, also stay cool at all speeds.
I tested the aluminium 40mm x 1.4 pitch prop(code 377000009) better drive than the plastic prop.
So I am very happy as it matches up to the 3639-1100KV and 3648-1450KV motors.
If you require a water cooled motor mount(code 9215000019-0).
I ordered a D3548/4 1100kv 910watt motor for another boat as this one will handle 3 to 5s batteries with the same ESC.
I also ordered the a new receiver for my radio which I can run voltage/temperature and RPM's sensors on the boat and it shows up on the transmitter LED panel in real time.
So changing props to say a larger one I can see the difference in loading on the motor and ESC(BEFORE I FRY THEM UP).
P.S. The idea of going two motors in you boat will add pain and cost.
I am going to do testing with two small XK2845B-2000Kv 280watt motors on two 45A car ESCs link to a Turnigy V-Tail Mixer.
I will have one motor running opposite direction to the other with a left and right hand prop.
Will post a reply later.
Old 04-08-2015, 01:40 AM
  #14  
jamie66
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ok thanks for that could you please post a code for the esc you would recommend preferably water cooled just for safety really. The next problem i would have is connecting the new motor/propeller i am very unfamiliar with brushless technology and how its all connected up ect. Do brushless motors require a special drive shaft system or do the connections to the drive shaft have a better system than a universal joint? also i worry that these propellers your recommending wont fit up to my current shaft so if you knew of or could help with a complete package right through from motor to propeller that would be very useful. Also do brushless motors have a over heating cut off or anything like that? do brushless motor even get very hot at all like the brushed ones seem to.
Thanks for your help if i am going to go brushless i am going to need guidance as i have very little idea of what to look out for or be cautious of. I am hoping this time i can get this thing up and going reliably as i have spent way to much time mucking around with stuff whilst yes it has been a good learning curve it has also been very frustrating as you can imagine Thanks again.
Jamie
Old 04-08-2015, 04:20 PM
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canabus
 
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Default ESC code

Originally Posted by jamie66
ok thanks for that could you please post a code for the esc you would recommend preferably water cooled just for safety really. The next problem i would have is connecting the new motor/propeller i am very unfamiliar with brushless technology and how its all connected up ect. Do brushless motors require a special drive shaft system or do the connections to the drive shaft have a better system than a universal joint? also i worry that these propellers your recommending wont fit up to my current shaft so if you knew of or could help with a complete package right through from motor to propeller that would be very useful. Also do brushless motors have a over heating cut off or anything like that? do brushless motor even get very hot at all like the brushed ones seem to.
Thanks for your help if i am going to go brushless i am going to need guidance as i have very little idea of what to look out for or be cautious of. I am hoping this time i can get this thing up and going reliably as i have spent way to much time mucking around with stuff whilst yes it has been a good learning curve it has also been very frustrating as you can imagine Thanks again.
Jamie
Hi Jamie

ESC codes(HK-60A or HK-100A) the reason I use the car ones is that at slow speed the water cooled ones do not get the water flow to cool the ESC.
The car ESC have a Fan constantly cooling the ESC.
If the original drive shaft is solid shaft just use a 5mm motor coupler to the existing shaft.

I recommend a drive shaft kit (code BP22S-PROP and BP-22 Sleeve) the motor to shaft requires enlarging for the motor and the red motor piece removed, as its for the 28mm motors.
Old 04-12-2015, 08:06 PM
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jamie66
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Originally Posted by canabus
Hi Jamie66
Brush motors will not get you a good run time with a good cruise speed.
My boat started with a 540 brush motor and 40mm x 1.4 pitch prop via a gearbox.
Run time was about 10 minutes and the speed was walking pace.
As in my other replies, I changed to brushless motor.
As for ESC's I like the Hobbyking 60A car ones with reverse, nice and small, also stay cool at all speeds.
I tested the aluminium 40mm x 1.4 pitch prop(code 377000009) better drive than the plastic prop.
So I am very happy as it matches up to the 3639-1100KV and 3648-1450KV motors.
If you require a water cooled motor mount(code 9215000019-0).
I ordered a D3548/4 1100kv 910watt motor for another boat as this one will handle 3 to 5s batteries with the same ESC.
I also ordered the a new receiver for my radio which I can run voltage/temperature and RPM's sensors on the boat and it shows up on the transmitter LED panel in real time.
So changing props to say a larger one I can see the difference in loading on the motor and ESC(BEFORE I FRY THEM UP).
P.S. The idea of going two motors in you boat will add pain and cost.
I am going to do testing with two small XK2845B-2000Kv 280watt motors on two 45A car ESCs link to a Turnigy V-Tail Mixer.
I will have one motor running opposite direction to the other with a left and right hand prop.
Will post a reply later.
Thanks for the reply once again canabus
the propeller your suggesting does it come pre threaded to fit a certain shaft or does it need threading after purchasing? Also i run a inboard water pump to ensure that i get good water flow so hopefully i can run a water cooled one hopefully that should stay cooler than a air cooled one also i notice that the engine you specify is for an areoplane why do you choose this particular engine over a water cooled boat motor? thanks again.
Jamie
Old 04-18-2015, 02:59 PM
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jamie66
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also is this motor an in runner or an out runner?
Old 04-19-2015, 01:47 AM
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Hi Jamie
I use both in runner and out runner motor, its more about the motor specs.
Old 04-22-2015, 12:42 AM
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Thanks again canabus i have just ordered most of the bits and peaces you have suggested so now the wait begins hopefully wont be to long to till they arrive and hopefully all works out will keep you posted. Thanks for your help and advice! might make a video of it all running once shes all up and going again. Cheers
Thanks Jamie
Old 06-26-2015, 03:49 AM
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HI canabus i am having trouble connecting my esc up to my motor i assume i have bought the wrong ecs as it wont respond to any input from the controller in terms of the beeps the motor makes whilst in the calibrating stage. Unless its my controller that is not high enough spec perhaps as its a standard stick controller made by futaba i dont know if this would have any affect. Anyhow here is what i have bought https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...dProduct=74072 should this work? also if it wont work could you please send me the like to the esc that you run or one that would work comfortably cheers
Thanks again
Jamie
Old 06-27-2015, 04:04 AM
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Hi Jamie
I use the car ESC 60A(code HK-60A) or the 100A(HK-100A) same programming card and very easy to setup!
The 100A is the better because if you wish to upgrade the motor it gives you more motors to pick from, and at about $9 AU. extra a cheap option.
These ESC's will handle 3S and 4S Batteries which gives you more options in the motor range.
With the marine ESC did you program it first?
With the car ESC's it is required!!!
Requires are programming card and a battery for the ESC(no motor required).

Programming the Hobbyking car ESC's 30 to 100A.

1 Cut off voltage 2S 6.6, 3S 9.9 and 4S 12.8

2 Start power 10% (a nice slow control speed).

3 Advance timing 4(maximum kick from the motor at the top end revs).

4 Run mode 2 ( decreases the braking setup) boats have no brakes.

5 Brake force 1

6 Drag brake force 1

7 Neutral range 2

8 Initial brake force 1


9 Reverse force 1 (25%) you wish to go astern not go under!!!



Connect up the motor and radio.


TURN ON THE TRANSMITTER FIRST (ALWAYS) AND TURN ON THE ESC WHICH WILL TURN ON THE RECEIVER.


THE ESC WILL START THE FAN AND GIVE A FEW ENABLING BEEPS (WAIT ABOUT 30 SECONDS).

ALWAYS TURN OFF THE RECEIVER FIRST( IT STOPS THE ESC GETTING LOSTED IN ITS SETUP).


TEST YOUR CONTROLS, IF THE MOTOR IS TURNING THE WRONG WAY CHANGE CROSS OVER TO OFF THE LEADS.


OK, MOTOR TO ESC.


WE CONNECT THE MIDDLE CONNECTOR TO THE SAME ON THE MOTOR.


CONNECT THE OTHER TWO THE SAME WAY.

IF THE MOTOR GOES THE WRONG WAY CHANGE OVER THE LEFT ONE TO THE RIGHT AND THE RIGHT TO THE LEFT.

Adding a pic of by test boat 850mm length, 3.25kg 3639-1100kv ( on 4S, yes it's not rated for 4S but ran it twice and it cool) prop 37mm x 1.4 pitch (a bit more speed).
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:30 AM
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jamie66
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Hi canabus sorry for the late reply, no i haven't programmed it first (by this i assume you mean the throttle range calibration?) as the esc will not respond to input from the controller (by this i mean the beeps) The instructions give me steps to program the ecs via the transmitter however the beeps dont change what so ever throughout the process and nothing i do affects it.
Anyway would a program card be able to by pass all this transmitter programming? If so what do i need to get to be able to be set up with the program card and its programming equipment and what will i need to know to hopefully make it work? I will probably also get another esc one that you specify so hopefully then i have almost the exact same running gear as you (might make things a bit more easy going forward. Any chance that you would be able to post the active links to your next post so i can go direct to the parts necessary.
Thanks again
Jamie
Old 07-07-2015, 05:33 AM
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mfr02
 
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Anyway would a program card be able to by pass all this transmitter programming? If so what do i need to get to be able to be set up with the program card and its programming equipment and what will i need to know to hopefully make it work?
Possibly one of the top questions regarding ESCs. Many ESCs advertise as being programmable using the transmitter, but most do need their appropriate card to fully program in any way easily. If you have the right card, you just need the card, the ESC and the right battery. And possibly the instructions or someone familiar with the make and model.

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