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Need help wiring a motor control relay

Old 04-13-2010, 03:18 PM
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Hookpilot
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Default Need help wiring a motor control relay

I'm building an operational torpedo for my 60 inch Vosper Motor Torpedo Boat, MTB. I need a simple wiring diagram to do the following. Using a magnetic reed switch, I want the reed switch to apply 8.4v power through a relay to a Graupner Speed 480 motor. Problem is that much current destroys the little reed switch. One fried so far. So I bought a Radio Shack SPDT relay rated at 12V and 10A. The wiring diagram for the SPDT doesn't show how I get power to the coil that does not fry the reed switch in line to energize it. What am i missing here. The same 8.4V is used to power the relay coil and the motor, so shouldn't they both see the same amps? And won't that same load damage the reed switch used to energize the relay coil??? It would be simple if I could find a reed switch able to take the amps of the motor directly. Any electronics experts out there to help?

Items in this setup: 8.4vdc NiMH 800mAh battery - magnetic reed switch - SPDT relay - Graupner Speed 480 electric motor - Safety ON/OFF toggle switch to allow de-energizing system with battery plugged in. Safety switch allows me to connect battery to system and keep motor OFF until last minute. Just before closing up torpedo, I put magnet next to torpedo (reed switch just inside torpedo) to keep motor off while loading, then throw the safety toggle switch (ON). Torpedo halves are joined and system is armed to run the instant the magnet is moved away from the reed switch. Making any sense?

BTW, the motor runs at full power when the reed switch is thrown (normally on). This probably has a very simple solution, I hope...

Mike in Honolulu

Old 04-13-2010, 03:49 PM
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Tony Fitzpatrick
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Mike, there is no need for a relay.
Use a mosfet transistor,capacitors and resistors with the reed.
Old 04-13-2010, 04:07 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Basically the relay will probably draw 8.4v .25 amps if that...
The 480 motor could possibly running 8.4v and up to 5.00 amps.
The motor has a higher load to run the propeller than the reed
switch needs to run the tiny magetic coil.

Result is a burn out. You need a relay that will handle higher amperage.

Ideally, the reed switch just supplys enough voltage to a relay to activate
the magnetic coil and the relay supplies the power to the motor
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:48 PM
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Tony Fitzpatrick
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

That is normally-off.I suppose you would spot that and redraw soon,anyway.

By the way,a reed can be operated normally closed with a pair of magnets.The two opposing magnet fields have a dead spot and the reed stays open until one magnet is removed causing the reed to magnetise and close.

I am still looking for a ready made diagram of the transistor equivalent.
More elegant to an electronic buff.Relays are so 20th century.

Image added.Hall effect magnetic sensor would be even better.
The capacitor is only needed if the transistor has a low gate capacitance.The transisistors suitable for motor currents,without any heatsink, would have a gate resistance of less than 0.025 ohm resistance and should already have about 22nF capacitance so C can be omitted.R could be 22k - 330k ohm.
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:01 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony:
Need a shopping list for Radio Shack for these parts. What do I ask for?

Mosfet transistor, capacitors and resistors. Also would need a schematic to put this together.

Thanks for all the input

Mike
Old 04-13-2010, 08:10 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Umi:
As I understand a relay, the electrical side is separated, low voltage/amperage control signal to coil from the high amp switching side. How do I keep the two separated so the little reed switch doesn't fry when 8.4vdc and 5A hits it? Tony was talking about another way to do this. Your drawing is exactly what I came up with to do this using the Radio Shack relay. Challenge will be finding a relay that will physically fit inside the 32mm I.D. of the torpedo. Could I add a separate AAA cell in the coil/reed switch side of the system isolated from the NiMH 8.4v powered side? I'd have room for that.

Mike
Old 04-13-2010, 08:32 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

The only thing the reed switch should be connected to is the magnetic coil side... as in the diagram.
All it does is provide power to the coil. The coil then closes the switch inside the relay, and sends
power to the motor.



This could be done in reverse also... As long as the magnet holds the reed switch on, then
the coil in the relay stays to the Normally Open (NO) contact. When power is cut to the coil, then
the relay drops to the Normally Closed (NC) contact, and sends power to the motor.

In this version the coil stops drawing power once the torpedo is launched.
Old 04-13-2010, 08:34 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Umi: Which means a separate power supply for magnetic reed switch/coil circuit, right?

Mike
Old 04-13-2010, 08:38 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

I thought you held the reed switch open/closed with a magnet on the boat...

This only needs power form the battery in the torpedo... as shown in the diagram
Old 04-13-2010, 09:08 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay


ORIGINAL: Umi_Ryuzuki

Basically the relay will probably draw 8.4v .25 amps if that...
The 480 motor could possibly running 8.4v and up to 5.00 amps.
The motor has a higher load to run the propeller than the reed
switch needs to run the tiny magetic coil.

Result is a burn out. You need a relay that will handle higher amperage.

Ideally, the reed switch just supplys enough voltage to a relay to activate
the magnetic coil and the relay supplies the power to the motor
Umi:

In your diagram the voltage throughout the diagram is 8.4vdc, correct? Would the amp load across the magnetic reed switch be the same as the load imposed by the motor on the entire system when running? This is what I don't understand. That kind of amperes will weld the contacts on my reed switch as it has already done on one switch and that was using a Graupner Speed 300 motor powered by 6 AAA cells in series. I'm sensing that I don't understand what is going on here and it might be easier to to just build my own magnetic reed switch able to take the 10amp load.

Mike
[email protected] for direct contact
Old 04-14-2010, 12:12 AM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

ORIGINAL: Hookpilot


ORIGINAL: Umi_Ryuzuki

Basically the relay will probably draw 8.4v .25 amps if that...
The 480 motor could possibly running 8.4v and up to 5.00 amps.
The motor has a higher load to run the propeller than the reed
switch needs to run the tiny magetic coil.

Result is a burn out. You need a relay that will handle higher amperage.

Ideally, the reed switch just supplys enough voltage to a relay to activate
the magnetic coil and the relay supplies the power to the motor
Umi:

In your diagram the voltage throughout the diagram is 8.4vdc, correct? Would the amp load across the magnetic reed switch be the same as the load imposed by the motor on the entire system when running? This is what I don't understand. That kind of amperes will weld the contacts on my reed switch as it has already done on one switch and that was using a Graupner Speed 300 motor powered by 6 AAA cells in series. I'm sensing that I don't understand what is going on here and it might be easier to to just build my own magnetic reed switch able to take the 10amp load.

Mike
[email protected] for direct contact

In your diagram the voltage throughout the diagram is 8.4vdc, correct?
Yes, the entire diagram is running on 8.4v

Would the amp load across the magnetic reed switch be the same as the load imposed by the motor on the entire system when running? This is what I don't understand.
No, The amperage on the reed switch only runs the electromagnet on the relay. it does not run the motor.

Once your reed switch activates the electromagnet on the relay, that activates another higher amperage
switch in the relay to run the motor. You have to be sure that the relay rating is high enough for your motor.







Old 04-14-2010, 12:34 AM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

OK, now it's making sense. The relay I have is rated at 10A. The Graupner Speed 480 can draw more than that. So it's off to Google to find a properly rated relay that will still fit inside the torpedo body. Thanks for the help. I may be returning to Edmonds/Seattle and look forward to getting the MTB down to your neck of the woods.

Mike in Honolulu
Old 04-14-2010, 04:00 AM
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Tony Fitzpatrick
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Mike,speed controller manufacturers who use relays don't bother about current ratings so why should you.The current rating is not an absolute maximum like a voltage for a semiconductor.If you already have a relay then go with that.I have a prejudice against potentiometers and relays,which have a built in breakdown factor.

You don't need a parts list for the transistor method.Most mosfets are N channel and the power semiconductor section of electronic suppliers will have pages of 50+ amp mosfets at 20 volt or higher.You should actually now get N channel mosfet transistors in any electronic equipment you scrap.Have a look and google the ID numbers.

Wire the motor to the relay N.C. terminal as UMI is still talking in terms of arming with the magnet in proximity to the reed.
A six volt relay of about ten amps would have a coil resistance of about 70 ohms and coil current of around 100mA.Like the mosfet,it is being used as an amplifier.The mosfet transistor only uses 8volt ÷ 100k. or less than a tenth of one milliamp.
The reed be protected from the relay coil by a signal diode and also have a capacitor across it,just as the motor does in the transistor diagram below.

No reed is actually needed if the torpedo is armed by the conductivity of water on the external contact J1 to positive earth,J2.If the metallised terminals are an inch or two apart,water is sufficient to conduct the 10 microamps.
External metalwork must not be negative earthed or it potentially block the positive arming probe so connect the motor case and prop shaft to the battery positive.

The diode rating for flyback suppression is about ten times the forward rating so a simple silicon 1n4000 is enough for a 480. A 1 amp schottky diode is enough for a 30 amp motor.
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:37 AM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Looking at Umi's drawing, I think an improvement for working a torpedo would be to insert a diode so that -
The magnet operates the reed, allowing the relay coil to energise,
The relay contact completes the circuit for the motor,
the diode keeps the relay operated until the battery runs out or is disconnected.
This would allow the torp to be launched by knocking it with the magnet, it would continue to run with the magnet no longer present.

As long as the motor does not need MUCH more than the contact rating, in this application, there shouldn't be a problem. It will not have its full rated life expectancy, but as this is measured in millions of operations, if the abuse brings it down to a few thousand, who is going to notice?

Hopefully, attaching the drawing worked.....sorry about the quality, but I tend to use a pencil, and the scanner is probably past its sell-by date.
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Old 04-14-2010, 01:12 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony: You solved my problem! brilliant. Using a contact on outside of torpedo to activate motor is a great idea, especially since I'm running in salt water. I'll try and build this as you suggest. Any ideas on how to get a brushless outrunner to run in this application? I'm looking in to a servo adjuster/tester to send a dummy ON signal to the ESCs.
Old 04-14-2010, 01:17 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay


ORIGINAL: Hookpilot

OK, now it's making sense. The relay I have is rated at 10A. The Graupner Speed 480 can draw more than that.
So it's off to Google to find a properly rated relay that will still fit inside the torpedo body. Thanks for the help.

I may be returning to Edmonds/Seattle and look forward to getting the MTB down to your neck of the woods.

Mike in Honolulu
Mike,

If you have a week of free time, you could head over for Foss Cup in August.

The weekend prior to Foss Cup, we are holding the Portland Regatta Saturday,August 14th during
the Tualatin Crawfish Festival. There is a proposal for a night time fun float Friday night.
Saturday we hold a maneuvering event for all boats, and then tug boat competitions, and a Saturday night Float.
Also a proposal that we do something Sunday Morning... Saturday is a sure thing on the 14th.

Then Foss cup is held in Bellevue, WA, at Bellevue Park, Saturday August 21st,
All tug boats, all day, with an area for fun float for all comers.

And Sunday August 22nd is the Burnaby Regatta in Burnaby BC, Canada.
All styles of boats welcome.

Might make one heck of a model boat excursion for 2010.

[8D]
Old 04-14-2010, 02:43 PM
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Tony Fitzpatrick
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

ORIGINAL: Hookpilot

Tony: You solved my problem! brilliant. Using a contact on outside of torpedo to activate motor is a great idea, especially since I'm running in salt water. I'll try and build this as you suggest. Any ideas on how to get a brushless outrunner to run in this application? I'm looking in to a servo adjuster/tester to send a dummy ON signal to the ESCs.
My own preference would be to use an ordinary brushed motor.If power was an issue then use the sledgehammer approach with a lower voltage motor if the power is too low.I saw the other threads regarding a contra-prop and the link to the pt boat with the four crown gears solves that.I can't see any reason to go brushless.

You could just use the circuit,minus the motor,diode,cap and insert the esc,motor,servo tester where the motor is illustrated.You would need one or more parallel mosfets to cut the total mosfet resistance to take the current continuously.
It would actually be easier to start from scratch and hack your servo tester or speed controller so that the water detector is only switching a signal current.That can be done with a 5cent transistor and it needn't be a mosfet type.I shall do a new diagram shortly.

Water conductivity in the present diagram is not an issue.A 1 M resistor sets sensitivity high enough to detect human sweat or tap water.I set it so high because 10 microamp wont cause corrosion unless it is left permanently in water.

Help me out on the brushless speed controller.Have you got one that does not need arming?
Edit
The reason is you could just use a 555 based servo driver,[link=http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&lr=&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=servo+tester]image link[/link] ,and use a bc547c,bc548c,bc549c transistor with two resistors to pull the pot controlled input of a servo driver from 1ms to 2ms to run a speed controller.

Just do a shout out on an electronic forum for a 555 or pic based servo driver that switches from 1 to 2 ms when an input is pulled low.
[link=http://images.google.co.uk/images?um=1&hl=en&lr=&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=transistor+"water+detector]transistor water detector[/link]
Old 04-15-2010, 03:55 AM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Umi: There is nothing like this in Hawaii, just a few fast electric groups, no scale ship/boat builders or clubs. One of my first official acts upon return to the PNW will be to rejoin the NWSM club in Lynnwood. Thanks for all your input. Tony in the UK has given me a solution that is both simple and elegant. I'm eliminating the magnetic reed switch and relay and going with his plan calling for water contacts on the exterior of the torpedo with switching being done by a MOSFET transistor. I picked up the Graupner Speed 480 Race motor and an 800mAh 2C Li-Po pack to re-engine the torpedo. I also piqued the interest of an engineer at Rockford Spring Company in Rockford IL when I requested springs to launch the torpedos. They sent me 4 springs to try out for free. Otherwise custom springs would have set me back $400. I've installed the torpedo launch servo and associated push/pull rods so should have everything up and running soon. It will be a wild sight to see a pair of 1-pound 17 inch torpedoes fly out of the torpedo tubes and tear across the pond while the boat is underway at flank speed. I'm also getting a small HD video camera to mount on the boat. It will make for some great shots during torpedo runs. Have a great summer. Hope to run our boats together at some point down the road.

Mike in Honolulu
Old 04-15-2010, 06:08 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony: Got the n-channel MOSFET, but don't know which way to solder into the circuit. The MOSFET's 3 tabs are marked G-gate, on the left, D-drain in the middle, and S - source on the right. In your schematic, the leg coming off the motor down to the transistor (right by the writing "N-ch mosfet) is this the where I solder the S side of the transistor? Or do I solder in the G here? Need help.

Thanks,

Mike
Old 04-15-2010, 06:21 PM
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Tony Fitzpatrick
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Gate to probe 1
Source to negative battery
Drain to motor

What device?

for a lipo voltage guard add 5 more resistors and two small npn transistors
Old 04-15-2010, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony: You'll have to forgive my lack of electrical knowledge. I'm powering the torpedo with an 800mAh 7.4v LiPo battery. The motor is a Graupner Speed 480 Race brushed motor.

Could you resend the diagram showing how this all is soldered up, including the 5 extra 220k resistors , RI on your original diagram. Where do the 2 npn transitors go in the schematic? How are they wired?

Mike
Old 04-16-2010, 01:01 PM
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Tony Fitzpatrick
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Yes the lipo recommended by CornelP should not be discharged below 6 volts.
I've done a circuit diagram but I'll bail out on a stripboard layout in case you change your mind again.I have used this circuit before but in a slightly different arrangement to switch current off when wet.There was a picture of the circuit in Model Boats many years ago.

The resistor values in this diagram are not critical but the ratio R1/R3 must be 11 for Q3 to turn off below 6.0 volt.That turns Q2 on then Q1 off to stop the motor at low voltage.

I still don't know which mosfet transistor device you got and whether its Rds rating allows use without heatsink.Rds x the square of the motor current should not exceed 1 watt if you got a To220 3 pin package.
With the components you have got, the circuit before will definitely drive a low current lamp with the probes in drinking water.Try it!

If laying out and soldering the components below onto stripboard does not appeal to you then fear not. My friend stocks three types of "smart high side power switches" .
These almost indestructible mosfets will shut down at ≈ 6v which means two components with a lipo battery.I'll drop you a pm later today on the test results.
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Old 04-16-2010, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony,

We have been hacking together water activated bilge pumps for several years.

I am interested in the increased sensitivity that you are discussing, and which
mosfet would be recommended for voltage and amp capacities.

We have typically used a TIP120 transistor... I imagine that mosfets would be a step up.
Any stats you could provide for mosfets would be very much appreciated.

[8D]
Old 04-16-2010, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony: I found an NTE electronics NTE2395 MOSFET N-Ch Enhancement Mode High Speed Switch. I'll try to attach photos of package and MOSFET. Are the arrows/triangles at the bottom of the diagram going to a ground wire? I don't plan on soldering components to a circuit board. The Graupner Speed 480 Race specs are:

Voltage range 6-8.4V
Current drain at max efficiency 10.8A

the motor came with a Schottky diode which I don't think I need to wire in. It says it's required for systems that draw more than 20 amps of continuous current or when used at partial throttle for extended periods. The torpedo will not be running for more than a minute or two.

thanks for your patience and help.

Mike
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:26 PM
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Default RE: Need help wiring a motor control relay

Tony: You have tons of patience for us non-electronics types. Here is your diagram with my understanding of all the wires I need to include shown in red ink. I'm still confused on the MOSFET soldering. I noticed at the top of the MOSFET on the metal plate with the hole, the package shows a letter "D" next to the hole. Is this a contact point or just a mounting hole for a screw??? If it is a contact point where I need to solder a wire, would it be Q1 on your drawing? In which case I just flip the MOSFET to the left and the metal top part of the MOSFET with the hole is soldered to R2, R4, via wire, etc., and the MOSFET silver pins remain as I've shown in red ink? S to the motor, D and G to the ground wire below that I show in red.

Many thanks, Tony

Mike
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