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parents say no to lipo...

Old 11-10-2009, 12:39 PM
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P.ferguson
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Default parents say no to lipo...

My parents don't like the idea of lipo, even-though i told them about all of the precautions you can take. The fire-proof bags and all that...

SO, what can i get for my rc18 that will have a similar speed and power that a 2s lipo can generate?
Old 11-10-2009, 12:46 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Do they realise you are using LiPo in your Sony PSP or other portable gaming system? In your iPod, iTouch, and iPhone (or othercellphone?) A lot of the consumer devices have already switched over from Li-Ion to LiPo, there's no avoiding it these days.

And the answer is no, the power output of NIMH just isn't the same. It's a whole different scale.
Old 11-10-2009, 12:51 PM
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P.ferguson
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

ok,
i might be able to convince them...One other question that i need to know:

What are balancers for?
Old 11-10-2009, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Keeping all the cells within a pack at the same charge state. It is essential for safe, long-lasting LiPo usage.
Old 11-10-2009, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Comparing our lipos to consumer electronic lipos is stretching it a bit. 1. Our lipos are discharged much faster, thereby reducing the safety factor. 2. Our lipos are generally much larger, also reducing the safety factor. 3. Our lipos are charged much faster, really reducing the safety factor.
That said, being well informed and using the proper techniques and equipment, lipos are perfectly safe to use. Just know what you are doing first. As a suggestion, if your dead set on going lipo, try to research it, present your parents with the information, show them that you are competent enough to handle the responsibility and they should go along with it. How did they find out about the dangers of lipos in the first place?
Old 11-10-2009, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Also any high-discharge-rate battery, LiPo, NIMH, or NiCD is potentially very dangerous. Look at some of the threads where people have had a NIMH pack failure while running, like with the tenergy batts or such.

kzimmerman even if it is stretching a bit, it still makes for a good argument if worded properly.
Old 11-10-2009, 05:11 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

All batteries need to be treated with respect and handled properly. If you do handle them appropriately they're very safe.
Old 11-10-2009, 05:42 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

you shouldnt have used the word fire lol .
these guys are right any battery can catch fire.
there are life battery's but there just not the same
heaveier, less power.

good luck
Old 11-10-2009, 07:19 PM
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DaveG55
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...


ORIGINAL: kzimmerman

Comparing our lipos to consumer electronic lipos is stretching it a bit. 1. Our lipos are discharged much faster, thereby reducing the safety factor. 2. Our lipos are generally much larger, also reducing the safety factor. 3. Our lipos are charged much faster, really reducing the safety factor.
That said, being well informed and using the proper techniques and equipment, lipos are perfectly safe to use. Just know what you are doing first. As a suggestion, if your dead set on going lipo, try to research it, present your parents with the information, show them that you are competent enough to handle the responsibility and they should go along with it. How did they find out about the dangers of lipos in the first place?
Not really that big of a stretch.
Last year one computer company had to recall laptops/batteries due to several spontainously catching fire. Just this past weekk there was a news article on i-pods and i-phones overheating and hurting people because of battery malfunction. Lipo's and Liions are everywhere now-a-days and while most do not discharge as quickly as we make the rc ones they do mostly charge at 1C, which is pretty much the optimum charging rate for that battery chemestry. And, really, the latest generation of cordless drills are using batteries with extremely similar size, discharge and charge rates.
Really not that much of a stretch at all...
Old 11-10-2009, 08:27 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Yep just do a search on youtube for "laptop battery fire" and there are pleanty of vids.
Not to mention that with laptops, the additional danger is there since the computer is in close proximity to your person, ie. sitting on your lap, or or on a table/desk in front of you, etc. When your battery is in a truck, the only risk is to your truck, not yourself or the people around you.

Also, for LiPo, the raw cells that go into these devices are basically the same as our RC cells. They have a similarly capacity to explode if mistreated, and many have a similarly low internal resistance (this is just a property of LiPo, albeit a mostly desirable one). It's just the integrated battery (device) then has a 'safety' IC which is supposed to monitor and/or restrict things like charge / discharge current, disconnect the battery when temperature reaches unsafe levels, and other safety features.

Often times, that IC doesn't really do it's job, some of them end up being defective, poorly designed, counterfeit, damaged during soldering, etc. Hence you get a nonzero chance of a catastrophic failure, and then a recall. Since it becomes a numbers game and even a single lawsuit can be very costly. There's been several of these high-profile recalls every year for as long as I can remember, and who knows how many that aren't high-profile.
Old 11-10-2009, 08:30 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Here's something you can try. Try to get your parents interested in your hobby. You'll be surprised that they may get interested just to spend some time with you. Once they're hooked (or at least interested) then you can show them all of the good stuff you can do to upgrade, including lipos.
Old 11-12-2009, 12:54 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

good idea cheap guy, just go up to your perents and keeping going on about what ever RC cars, trucks Etc
Old 11-24-2009, 05:51 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

any batt. should be considered dangerous-doesnt matter what type ofbatt. u have-the result will be the same if you overcharge or missuse it-just charge it within spec and u shouldnt have any problems. i myself have fallen victim to the tenergy batts-bought 4 of um-im down to 1 and it doesnt hold a good charge-and i always charge them right w/ peak chargers-other 3 melted the case's when i had a older e-maxx. i learned my lesson-dont by batts from allbattery on ebay-lol
Old 11-25-2009, 06:47 AM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Just how old are ya mate ?

l wouldnt let my 12 year old or under use LIPO or nitro.

Heres something to think about, nitro is far more dangerous for your health than LIPO ever will be.
Nitro fuel, something we have all splashed on our hands at some point during use, is known to be highly cancerous, so are some of the other things used in nitro, like oils, cleaners to clean oils off, sprays and the like. It is unavoidable to get nitro fuel on your skin, unless your dexter and wear gloves everywhere ! Fuel residue gets on the chassis, plastic parts, the tyres, the body, all things you touch directly, its almost impossible to practice nitro RC with perfect safety.

Electric is far safer.
Even LIPO is safer over the long term.
Treat LIPO batteries correct its not a problem.

You wouldnt leave your nitro fuel exposed to direct sunlight when in storage, or put it near a naked flame, or use it to wash your hands with, you treat it right, or accidents happen, its the same with any battery, you wouldnt run a LIPO to dead flat, you wouldnt short it out intentionally, if you follow safe re-charging methods you really are safe as pie.

l know your not looking at nitro, but let em know LIPO is safer than nitro long term.
Also if your exposed to the chemicals inside a ni-cad or Nimh battery, there just as toxic and harmfull as the inside of a LIPO, the difference being a LIPO is very unlikely to actually get any fluids on you as they puff up and tend to hiss as they're about to pop, giving you time to step well back after tossing it if need be, to  date l have fried 2 LIPO batteries, both on purpose, cheapos, to see the effect, never has one gone bang on me from a fault or problem of its own.

People are getting over 300 good charges out of LIPO batteries without fires or puff ups. Not many ni-cad or Nimh batteries actually do that in the real world and still work holding a peak charge.
Old 11-25-2009, 12:17 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

I wouldn't let you have a LiPo in an RC either. PSP, copmuter, iPod, sure. They are designed for it, there are technology safeguards, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, charge/discharge rates are much lower.

Not to mention, fast RC are more subject to impacts and damage, where LiPos do not fair well. Sure crash your iPod at 40mph and it may catch fire too. But there's not many PSPs out there that hit a curb after jumping the neighbors bushes.

RC LiPos move electrons in huge volumes and fast speeds, with heat as a byproduct. All it takes is one mistake to level your house and lose everything you own. Just one "Oops, I fogot to unplug it" can cost you everthing with the RC Lipos.

There is the agrument that, when handled properly, it is safe. How many kids actually wash their hands before every meal, put the bicycle back in the garage, and fold thier own laundry every single time, without fail?

I say this after having a dime-sized LiPo burn it's way out of a helicopter, thru my carpet, carpet pad, and into the floorboard. The potential energy in one 1/18 scale RC or larger is ridiculous. The probability of an uncontrolled release of that energy is too high for me to risk one in my house, with my family, and my hard-earned belongings. Sure I have a PSP, cell phone, MP3, laptop, etc, but the probability of them cooking my junk is pretty low, comparatively.
Old 11-25-2009, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

ORIGINAL: Suprachrgd82
I wouldn't let you have a LiPo in an RC either. PSP, copmuter, iPod, sure. They are designed for it, there are technology safeguards, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, charge/discharge rates are much lower.

I say this after having a dime-sized LiPo burn it's way out of a helicopter, thru my carpet, carpet pad, and into the floorboard. The potential energy in one 1/18 scale RC or larger is ridiculous. The probability of an uncontrolled release of that energy is too high for me to risk one in my house, with my family, and my hard-earned belongings. Sure I have a PSP, cell phone, MP3, laptop, etc, but the probability of them cooking my junk is pretty low, comparatively.
Only on paper. Those things can still malfunction, and be quiet harmful when they do.
The PSP, laptop computer, netbook, etc. typically sits on your lap, in your hand, or physically close to your person when in use.
How often do you hear of recalls for these items b'cos the battery protection IC mass-manufactuered in china for the lowest cost possible turned out to not perform how they believed they should. Just search youtube for "exploding laptop" and you will see what can happen. If an RC LiPo fails catastrophically, it is most likely not doing so in your hand, on your lap, on a passanger aircraft, etc. As for the RC LiPo, it's failing out in the field. Of course there is charging too (which might be done inside your house) but most chargers have just as much protective circuitry on their end as the consumer batteries do built-in.

Also nitro fuel is typically close 70% to 80% methanol, which is highly toxic. 10mL methanol can be lethal to an adult and 30mL is almost always lethal. High PE is a simple necessity for modern RC, for the speeds, power, etc. that the modern user expects. Even NIMH is potentially very dangerous, if shorted out they can vent or simply explode if the venting fails to function.

Anyways this is really an independent issue as no one can tell another parent how to treat or how much to trust (or not trust) their own child. That is largely up to the parent and their choice. Arguing facts is one thing but ultimately the parent is going to make their own choice, with or without the facts.
Old 11-25-2009, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

ORIGINAL: Access

Only on paper. Those things can still malfunction, and be quiet harmful when they do.
The PSP, laptop computer, netbook, etc. typically sits on your lap, in your hand, or physically close to your person when in use.
How often do you hear of recalls for these items b'cos the battery protection IC mass-manufactuered in china for the lowest cost possible turned out to not perform how they believed they should. Just search youtube for ''exploding laptop'' and you will see what can happen. If an RC LiPo fails catastrophically, it is most likely not doing so in your hand, on your lap, on a passanger aircraft, etc. As for the RC LiPo, it's failing out in the field. Of course there is charging too (which might be done inside your house) but most chargers have just as much protective circuitry on their end as the consumer batteries do built-in.

Failure rates for LiPo are much higher than that of other media batteries. The elevated failure rate in conjunction with the greater potential for physical damage indicates a greater potential for failire. Not a destiny of failure, but a potential therefore.

The general RC industry does not have the financial backiing that the electronics industry has, and will rarely inititate (or publicize) recalls, as the expense could easily bankrupt a manufacturer. A reflection of this phenomena is indicated on disclaimers and warning labels.
In addition, there are decades of product development behind NiCd (also toxic) and NiMH batteries. The emerging technology of LiPo batteries leaves gaps product evaluation.

Toxicity, though a significant hazard is not the greatest when these items are placed in the home. The primary hazard is flammability/reactivity. This is not to say that lithium, dioxins produced through combustion of manufactured battery packs, methanol or other chemicals is negligable. It is a matter of assesing risk. Turning on a fan is easier than putting out your curtains.
Any chemical, when not handled properly is a risk. The inherent and induced risks of LiPo use are greater than that of other battery types, and is a significant factor in product selection. Coupled with the necessity of continual dedication required to safely handle LiPo batteries, and the complacent and negligent nature of young individuals, the risk is greater. As we age and gain experience and understanding of action/consequence, we tend to err on the side of safety.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but the probability remains the same. This entirely up to the buyer, however, my argument shall be that potentially complacent individuals should not be handed a high risk item without the expectation that there will be a significant cliability from mis-use.


To further answer P.fergusen's question in the first post:

LiPo's attain high speeds in 2 ways; 1) reduced weight 2) higher voltage

The top speed you are looking for can be attained by increasing voltage, as LiPo has been an option eliminated by the 'rents. RC electric drag racers acheived this by using either more cells, and smaller cells placed in the same space. You can look into smaller cells, that will fit where the standard pack goes, or utilize unused space in the car to add cells.

Another route is to increase efficiency of the drivetrain. Bearings, if not already equipped are a good solution. Upgrade bearing would be ceramic bearings. An easy, but costly upgrade is brushless. Do some legwork and research high kV brushless motors and ESC's, though it is often best to go with a big name manufacturer (Mamba, Tekin, Novak, Lerner, etc).
Also balanced parts will reduce drag on the drivetrain. More often than not, aluminum parts (drivesahft, hubs, axles) are better balanced than factory plastic. Allowing parts to rotate without flex or vibration will assure that more of the motors output will find its way to the pavement.

You can lighten up the car to get up to speed faster. Screws, nuts, tie rods, and pivots are individually small and insignificant, but when all replaced with titanium or aluminum, make for drastic weight reduction. This means longer runtimes, and a faster car "out of the hole".

Lastly, gearing can yeild high speeds. Bigger pinion, smaller spur will get you high top speed. It will draw more power to get up to speed, and ESC's, motors and batteries will get hotter.


Old 11-25-2009, 03:37 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

Can a [link=http://www.liposack.com/]LiPosack[/link] be a solution to this problem of not letting you have LiPo-batteries?
Old 11-25-2009, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

ORIGINAL: Lars from Norway
Can a [link=http://www.liposack.com/]LiPosack[/link] be a solution to this problem of not letting you have LiPo-batteries?
No, just like hard cases it is a false sense of security at best. Maybe if they were clear but right now they are black so they prevent early detection of problems while the battery is being charged. Honestly the only people I know who are pushing those sacks are the ones selling them, so buyer beware.

Not to mention the inherent danger of suffocation or choking for small children. A lot of small children die every year due to suffocation.

Lars the reasoning for LiPos is all about power density and power-to-weight ratio. You simply can't get it with NIMH or with any other current battery technology except for A123 batteries. If electric is going to match nitro in terms of performance, LiPo is pretty much a requirement. At one time ROAR was full of people who did not want electric to ever be able to stand up to nitro on the track and hence LiPos, brushless motors, all the essential technologies were made illegal. It was only recently as ROAR became irrelevant that they had to capitulate and allow the technology that club tracks all around already had.

In the days when electrics were running NIMH or NiCD these cells were being pushed to the absolute limits. There was more danger involved than today where LiPos can be run well under their rated operating limits. People often times assume too much from watching youtube videos of exploding LiPos firing off jets of flame and things like that. We had a LiPo failure on a bike at the ISC and it was just a lot of foul-smelling smoke. No jets of flame, no fireballs, nothing like that. They just let it burn itself out over the course of 5 minutes, it did some secondary damage to the vehicle but that was pretty much the end of it.
Old 11-25-2009, 10:10 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

l welded up a steel box 200 odd by 200mm odd size, it is a true failsafe, it has 20 x 10mm holes in lid top, anything goes wrong you just disconnect power cable and walk away and let it burn.....
HOWEVER !
lve never had a battery explode or malfunction yet. [lipo ] but l do feel safe re-charging.

Oh and LIPO batteries make there power 3 ways not 2, voltage, weight, and the holey grail, discharge/ resistance of the cell ! C rating is life !
You could have a 5400mah, 11.1 volt LIPO, but with a discharge rate of 5C  how good is it really ? !

Supercharged is correct though, the risks are increased over other battery types ,and its usually the lazy or complacent that have bad accidents.
Old 11-25-2009, 11:04 PM
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Default RE: parents say no to lipo...

To answer the actual question....

If lipos are off the table (not an option), a 7 cell nimh pack for your rc18 will provide better performance (acceleration and top speed) than a 2 cell lipo (8.4V vs 7.4V). Run time will vary based on capacity.

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