NERF Demo
10-08-2002, 12:54 AM
#26
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ssc/class B = apples/oranges
having personally flown and closely observed some ssc yesterday, I can say that it should not be expected to be anything like the current evolution of class B. I can attest to the fact that the SPAD's we flew were safely controllable and I was able to perform about any maneuver I wanted to with the exception of unlimited vertical. Energy management was required but that was part of the fun of it and everyone had a ball.
I also noticed that we ended up combatting in a pretty small "box" which was really all the room we needed. The slower speeds allowed us time to plan our next move. I noticed my peripheral vision becoming "wider" , for lack of better words, in that the slower speed allowed me to have a better look at other planes around me ( i.e. IMPROVED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! ). I believe this improved situational awareness allowed me to more effectively keep my plane out of harm's way ( not that I'm against some good ol' mid airs, hey, thats part of it). How many mid air's has anyone been in where they actually knew it was going to happen? Most of my class B mid-airs involved me, or some other poor sucker getting cold-cocked from out of nowhere by a plane you never saw. But nothing against B class, it's just faster, and I still fly B class.
In short, ssc, with the right type of plane, is safe and fun, but just in a different way than class B, which is also safe and fun in its own respect. I just think we shouldnt have great expectations of B class type of combat out of the limitations mandated by ssc class.
We are comparing apples to oranges.
I also noticed that we ended up combatting in a pretty small "box" which was really all the room we needed. The slower speeds allowed us time to plan our next move. I noticed my peripheral vision becoming "wider" , for lack of better words, in that the slower speed allowed me to have a better look at other planes around me ( i.e. IMPROVED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! ). I believe this improved situational awareness allowed me to more effectively keep my plane out of harm's way ( not that I'm against some good ol' mid airs, hey, thats part of it). How many mid air's has anyone been in where they actually knew it was going to happen? Most of my class B mid-airs involved me, or some other poor sucker getting cold-cocked from out of nowhere by a plane you never saw. But nothing against B class, it's just faster, and I still fly B class.
In short, ssc, with the right type of plane, is safe and fun, but just in a different way than class B, which is also safe and fun in its own respect. I just think we shouldnt have great expectations of B class type of combat out of the limitations mandated by ssc class.
We are comparing apples to oranges.
10-08-2002, 01:05 AM
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Well put Tom. Jimbo, I noticed that you guys are building planes that come out around 2lbs as well, but the guys in Shreveport and sticking to the 2.5lb weight limit. I'd love to fly some "unofficial" demo rounds with you after the "official" event is over so that people can see how a .15 sized combat plane should fly. We should have a much more enjoyable experience.
10-08-2002, 01:45 AM
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Roger, thanks for posting the pix and some data on your ssc plane. That's way more than our friend from SW La. has done.
I invited him to bring his designed but secret plane to Alazan a week ago and participate in some Nerf demo, but ,,,,,yep,,,,you guessed it. He came, but the phantom plane did not. Personally, I feel he is just blowing swamp smoke
He does a negative post here on the Nerfs that did a demo,(and they did not fly very well with streamers), but very carefully hid his so he wouldn't be embarassed. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it at Shreveport. You can't see what doesn't exist. SWAMP SMOKE.
Your plane is similar to mine except for the wing. I am test flying three wings, 2 tapered and 1 constant chord. It is obvious that different airfoils really fly differently at these speeds. I haven't found the one I'm looking for yet. The E203 flies very well without the snappishness and seems to turn well. I have a couple more I am going to try.
My fuse is a 1.75" blue foam block wrapped with 2 mil coro. I think it will withstand the rigors of Nerf very well. The plane weighs exactly 2.5 lbs. The only flight maneuver it won't do is long vertical lines. It requires a different flying style than B, but it is slow, responsive and Fun. It may be a little daunting for a relatively new pilot. It does have to be flown with a touch.
It is definately not a lead sled, but I could go with a minimum weight of, maybe 2.25 lbs. I can see both sides of this argument. We screwed up and ruined Open C by not putting a minimum weight on it. We wound up with 5 lb Spads with .46 power and 50 MPH flying against 2 lb. Raptors with Jett 30s flying in excess of 100 MPH. It didn't work, and the class never developed and will never develop. So the minimum weight is needed to keep it a SSC class.
I think we have the opportunity to continue to develope this class and I forsee it becoming a popular event for club level or larger meet combat. A lot of guys are experimenting and I think we'll see much better designs in a short time. Look at the advancements made in Open B ships in the past year.
As for the naysayers here, I just say show me something other than talk, and I'll take you seriously.
Cajun
I invited him to bring his designed but secret plane to Alazan a week ago and participate in some Nerf demo, but ,,,,,yep,,,,you guessed it. He came, but the phantom plane did not. Personally, I feel he is just blowing swamp smoke
He does a negative post here on the Nerfs that did a demo,(and they did not fly very well with streamers), but very carefully hid his so he wouldn't be embarassed. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it at Shreveport. You can't see what doesn't exist. SWAMP SMOKE.
Your plane is similar to mine except for the wing. I am test flying three wings, 2 tapered and 1 constant chord. It is obvious that different airfoils really fly differently at these speeds. I haven't found the one I'm looking for yet. The E203 flies very well without the snappishness and seems to turn well. I have a couple more I am going to try.
My fuse is a 1.75" blue foam block wrapped with 2 mil coro. I think it will withstand the rigors of Nerf very well. The plane weighs exactly 2.5 lbs. The only flight maneuver it won't do is long vertical lines. It requires a different flying style than B, but it is slow, responsive and Fun. It may be a little daunting for a relatively new pilot. It does have to be flown with a touch.
It is definately not a lead sled, but I could go with a minimum weight of, maybe 2.25 lbs. I can see both sides of this argument. We screwed up and ruined Open C by not putting a minimum weight on it. We wound up with 5 lb Spads with .46 power and 50 MPH flying against 2 lb. Raptors with Jett 30s flying in excess of 100 MPH. It didn't work, and the class never developed and will never develop. So the minimum weight is needed to keep it a SSC class.
I think we have the opportunity to continue to develope this class and I forsee it becoming a popular event for club level or larger meet combat. A lot of guys are experimenting and I think we'll see much better designs in a short time. Look at the advancements made in Open B ships in the past year.
As for the naysayers here, I just say show me something other than talk, and I'll take you seriously.
Cajun
Its not worth getting upset over.
10-08-2002, 03:16 AM
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You are right about one thing, you will not see our NERF planes in Shreveport. They are not SSC legal. We are building these planes to fill a need in this area. We have had seven pilots drop out of the RR contest because of Cajun(that I know of for sure). It's time for us to do something different before we have no one leftl. We have 5 pilots in my club some from Beaumont and some from Nederland that want to do this ".25 slow combat"
10-08-2002, 10:39 AM
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coro over wing
No, thats a heavy form of ripstop nylon. It's airoil is an NHCA something or other. Tbyrd what is that airfoil again? It uses an 11 inch cord (exluding ailerons) and 36 inch length.
10-08-2002, 12:32 PM
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We have had seven pilots drop out of the RR contest because of Cajun(that I know of for sure). by Jimbo
But, Old Cajun has kept a monthly combat series going for two years, and only one other group in Texas can match that. I'm happy to see the guy from Sulphur is going to try it next season. He might want to grow a little thicker skin first though.
Cajun
10-08-2002, 03:54 PM
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Roger,
I believe the airfoil I used on our defender wings is a NACA-64 or at least something very similar
Hey Cajun,
what is the chord (including ailerons)of the wing of that plane in the photo?
Tom
I believe the airfoil I used on our defender wings is a NACA-64 or at least something very similar
Hey Cajun,
what is the chord (including ailerons)of the wing of that plane in the photo?
Tom
10-08-2002, 04:04 PM
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It's 9" root and 7.5" tip with 54"span. I think that one is a S8035 root and E203 Tip. I'm also trying a 56" E203 of 9"x7.5", and a constant chord Clark Y of 48".
I have a couple more plotted that I want to try.
So many things to try,,,,So little time.
Cajun
I have a couple more plotted that I want to try.
So many things to try,,,,So little time.
Cajun
10-08-2002, 04:46 PM
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I've always been a fan of the clark-Y. Have you flown it on your ssc plane yet? It seems like it would do well at the low speeds. I know what you mean by the time issue. Every time I look through my Profili program, I always find a new template to make and get sidetracked from what I was originally working on.
One thing I notice with the Defender wing with it's huge chord is that it behaves similar to a flying wing or pizza box in that it is difficult to stall and never tip stalls, and can be drug around at high AoA. it does turn and maintain it's energy better than a pizza box type though(although not as good as a high aspect ratio wing). These characteristics would make it good for beginners who might freak out if their plane suddenly stalls in the heat of combat.
One thing I notice with the Defender wing with it's huge chord is that it behaves similar to a flying wing or pizza box in that it is difficult to stall and never tip stalls, and can be drug around at high AoA. it does turn and maintain it's energy better than a pizza box type though(although not as good as a high aspect ratio wing). These characteristics would make it good for beginners who might freak out if their plane suddenly stalls in the heat of combat.
10-08-2002, 05:40 PM
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I haven't test flown the Clark Y yet. Need to get some covering on it. I suspect it will fly Ok, but may have to play with the span.
Your right about Profili. What we need is a new program where we can feed in what we want the wing to do, and Profili would spit out the airfoil we need
I'll let you know how the Clark Y performs, either Wed. or the weekend.
Cajun
Your right about Profili. What we need is a new program where we can feed in what we want the wing to do, and Profili would spit out the airfoil we need
I'll let you know how the Clark Y performs, either Wed. or the weekend.
Cajun
10-09-2002, 02:23 PM
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down in florida we have been flying nerf as the 5 commandments lou has set forth.
it is our open b rudder plane with a magnum .15. we are having an absolute blast. we get 10 minute heats, and are doing about 5 heats in a day of flying. that's alot of combat!!!!!!!!
we have switched to survey tape because we would run out of streamers too fast with the democrate. we call a drape a cut, it's easy enough to see at these speeds.
these planes do not have unlimited verticle. a beginner can fly them but to fly them well and get cuts you have to really fly them. alot of stradegy and power conservation. in my opinion it is more like flying scale combat than scale combat is.
our planes are right at 2lb 12oz. alittle heavy but they fly great and are very durable. they are durable b planes, that makes them very tough nerfs. billy had 4 mid-airs in one heat yesterday and finally landed because he was dead-stick. tape up the prop-cuts and flying again. i have destroyed two wings in nerf but have flown about 5 hours of combat so that doesn't seem too bad.
i would love to fly .25's but to get them to these speeds or slower seems unobtainable. let us know what you find out but don't discount the .15 cause you didn't see a very good demonstration of what they are capable of.
steve "slam" lamson
it is our open b rudder plane with a magnum .15. we are having an absolute blast. we get 10 minute heats, and are doing about 5 heats in a day of flying. that's alot of combat!!!!!!!!
we have switched to survey tape because we would run out of streamers too fast with the democrate. we call a drape a cut, it's easy enough to see at these speeds.
these planes do not have unlimited verticle. a beginner can fly them but to fly them well and get cuts you have to really fly them. alot of stradegy and power conservation. in my opinion it is more like flying scale combat than scale combat is.
our planes are right at 2lb 12oz. alittle heavy but they fly great and are very durable. they are durable b planes, that makes them very tough nerfs. billy had 4 mid-airs in one heat yesterday and finally landed because he was dead-stick. tape up the prop-cuts and flying again. i have destroyed two wings in nerf but have flown about 5 hours of combat so that doesn't seem too bad.
i would love to fly .25's but to get them to these speeds or slower seems unobtainable. let us know what you find out but don't discount the .15 cause you didn't see a very good demonstration of what they are capable of.
steve "slam" lamson
10-09-2002, 02:51 PM
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Glad to see you guys are having fun with it. That's what really counts.
I'm not just going by the demo I saw. I have a 2lbs Stinger with a .15 on it. The vertical performance is not very good, and it is a half pound lighter than the NERF's. It is the opinion of our pilots that it is easier and more fun for a newbie and an experienced pilot to fly a plane that DOES NOT have stall tendencies, especially when you have a couple streamers on the wing. With the right engine(stockTT.25GP) and wing combo there is no reason we can't make them fly slow enough and still have good vertical. They may even be a good bit stronger because of the thickness of the wing. Time will tell, NO ONE has even given it a chance, much less a try. We think WE will enjoy this a little more than what some others are doing now. Once we get it going I'll come back and give ya'll an honest and truthful report. It may not work, but if it does it may be the only combat I fly from now on.
I'm not just going by the demo I saw. I have a 2lbs Stinger with a .15 on it. The vertical performance is not very good, and it is a half pound lighter than the NERF's. It is the opinion of our pilots that it is easier and more fun for a newbie and an experienced pilot to fly a plane that DOES NOT have stall tendencies, especially when you have a couple streamers on the wing. With the right engine(stockTT.25GP) and wing combo there is no reason we can't make them fly slow enough and still have good vertical. They may even be a good bit stronger because of the thickness of the wing. Time will tell, NO ONE has even given it a chance, much less a try. We think WE will enjoy this a little more than what some others are doing now. Once we get it going I'll come back and give ya'll an honest and truthful report. It may not work, but if it does it may be the only combat I fly from now on.
