Realistic Combat?
 

I went to a Funfly event near me and saw some combat events take place. Looks like a real rush! Planes were sooming at outrageous speeds and buzzing around clipping streamers. This is not what I expected however. I was thinking more along the lines of scale combat planes going 30 mph max, in a more realistic dogfight. If one plane turned to shake the guy behind him, the predator would have to follow his lead, while the prey would have to try to escaple him. I think that would be more fun instead of going vertical and doing crazy stunts to evade other attackers. This way would be much more like a real dogfight, at a more scale speed. Also, the planes having realistic control throws would be a must. Does this type of scale combat exist at all? Thanks.

Realistic Combat?
 

You must have seen a Class b event. You will like the new SSC/Nerf combat we are moving toward a provisional class for 2003. Its .15 size motors, and 2.5 lbs minimum. Its much more exciting to watch and fly in. The planes do not have unlimited vertical, so energy management and pursuit is the name of the game, so it is much more realistic.

Several Nerf/SCC flights are scheduled, with an exclusive Nerf/SSC meet scheduled for Dec. 7th in Tyler, TX.

If you want more information on this new class, click on over to the topic forums on rccombat.com website.

If you are new to combat, or want to find out what its all about, NERF is THE way to go. Experience it in person, and you'll want more!

Realistic Combat?
 

Open B is geared more for pilots with very fast, fine tuned skill and reflexes.

Realistic Combat?
 

...like me!

:D

Actually, i would like to try nerf combat some time. I love fast planes, but the idea of having one plane live thru a season or more is the apealing part to me. Something in this sport for everybody.

scale/2610?
 

That sounds to me like you saw scale combat in "2610" class. That's pretty much it these days for scale. There used to be slower moving classes, but they were never as scale as you describe either.

Frankly, RC combat will never look like a scale contest with streamers. It's more "stand off" scale than anything. And while scale performance sounds like a good idea, the reality is a bit harder to make happen. It's amost impossible, if not impossible, to actually write contest rules that would enforce it.

Also, it's worth noting that what makes a good "real life" fighter is not at all what makes a good scale combat airplane.

Of course, if you want to do more-scale-like combat with your friends, or as something to show off at an airshow, that's a different matter entirely. You can do a lot of things for fun and show that won't work in the long haul as a competition.

Realistic Combat?
 

....Machine guns!

maybe what you were noticing was really that most pilots are just circling around in a furball hoping to get a lucky strike. That doesn't happen so much when the skill level is higher. there was a meet here a couple weeks ago that attracted several of the nations top pilots. These guys are at a level where they can just pick a target and stay on them until they have the streamer. they were so good that it was really difficult to get away, no matter how hard you try, or what your plane was capable of. Now thats combat! it was a thrill to watch, far better than scale. it is possible that Nerf combat (slower planes) might make persuit-type combat more accessable to the average pilot but it still is going to require a lot of skill and practice.

Nerf class isn't established here, maybe it'll catch on soon

Realistic Combat?
 

An update for those of you looking for a warbird combat class that is a little slower and more survivable... um, SSC, yeah!

Micster and I are working on an SSC wardbird design that will be stand-way-off scale, yet still be recognizable when in the air. We will campaign them in the regular SSC class against open-SSC planes and see what people think. If nothing else they will be a real hoot to fly and see.

As for the original post, with .15's and 500 sq/in of wing area energy management will be one of the keys to being successful with these birds, or ANY SSC design.

We are hoping that people thinking about flying SSC will pursue warbird style aircraft as their SSC birds.

Will post an update later, after we fly one and see how it performs.

Realistic Combat?
 

Ok, this past weekend we had our first NPS combat meet. During the lunch break we flew an SSC demo with a couple of Open SSC designs, a P-40 Warhawk and a WWI German Halberstadt biplane. What a cool sight to see. The planes flew low and slow enough that everyone could follow the action, and with the aircraft that looked like real aircraft (the bipe and P-40), the crowd really got into it. :D

http://www.inter-tecc.com/rcmodeling/mic-p40.jpg
Here is Micsters P-40, waiting to fly a mission. By the way, it was involved in a mid-air with one of the Open designs during the demo. The Open plane broke a prop, but the P-40 just kept on flying. It took the hit on top of the left wing, bending the Aileron control rod but no real damage. Way cool!

http://www.inter-tecc.com/rcmodeling...alby-climb.jpg
Here is Marks Halberstadt climbing out after launch. It was actually faster than the P-40 because it is much lighter and somewhat smaller.

It appears to me that SSC warbirds give a pretty realistic view of dogfighting, whereas 2610 scale is a little on the fast side to be "realistic". Before ya bag on me about 2610, understand that I fly it and love it, I just think that SSC looks more "realistic". :)

Realistic Combat?
 

Great pictures Will. Thanks for the report. I cant wait to mix up my SSC bird. With the open SSC it was great to fly at slower speed and be closer to the action. It really puts you in the action.
Ron

Realistic Combat?
 

The guys at my club really enjoy watching the SCC action. You can see the tactics and strategy being used and watch the action develope. 2610 and Open B have a lot more "twitch factor"! You have to twitch at the right instant to get the cut.

As another benifit we have 4 more combat pilots coming up because they think they can handle the planes at SCC speeds and performance and did not think they could handle B or 2610 speeds and performance.

Let's Think About Slowing Down 2610
 

Rather than start new classes let's regulate existing equipment to get slower speeds. We will see in the next year with SSC if a mandated prop and rpm restrictions are workable. Any lessons learned from the provisional year can be applied to 2610 to get good flying scale planes that are slower and more survivable. I don't want to see the Combat Community get split up into ever smaller interest groups.

Realistic Combat?
 

Mark,

Don't get me wrong. I/we don't want to start a new class, ie. Warbird SSC, all we want to do is build interest from the spectators. :)

In our experience spectators and "traditional" RC pilots prefer to see aircraft that they can recognize fly in combat. People cheered when Micsters P-40 took the streamer from my Open style SSC plane, 'cause it was a warbird. We got a LOT of positive comments about the bipe and P-40, and when the folks saw the open designs they said things like "interesting" or "I am surpised that thing flew as well as it did", not really negative, but not as positive as "WOW!" or "way cool!". :cool:

We don't mind flying SSC against "open" style planes, we just thought it would be cool to campaign wardbird style aircraft, just for the spectator interest. Maybe even get more pilots to participate. Show what kind of diversity can be flown in the class. :D

By the way, the prop really does slow them down... hehehe, it was almost funny to watch after flying a round of Open-B. Really really cool.

Realistic Combat?
 

Mark, you can't divide zero and that's the level of new interest in 2610 Scale in this area. SSC is a matter of providing a choice and with all the great SSC warbirds being build down here we now have an alternative to not flying 2610 :D Lee Liddle has proven it with 7 beautiful SSC warbirds built in 8 weeks. 2610 may very well be old news a year from now.

Realistic Combat?
 

After flying my 109 SCC bird I'm really pumped about it! It flys as well as the open designs and looks way cool! Time will tell if a scale SCC class developes. In the meantime it's fun to put them up with the open planes and know it will probably survive! Hopefully some kits for scale SCC will become available. Might even put one out myself!

Realistic Combat?
 

Ya'll know from other threads I am for slowing down all combat. AJ and Jimbo would shoot me for holding to that, but there ya go. I am most for keeping RC Combat as cohesive and simple as possible. We can slow down 2610 and keep the scale purists happy and have more new fliers getting involved because it isn't as intimidating, and doesn't destroy as many planes.

If SSC can make prop and rpm restrictions work, so can 2610. If the scale purists and those who want slower speeds can fly in the same rounds that's more rounds and less building for everybody. If we want to stay unified, we can. With only a small amount of will power we can all fly together.

These are numbers I got from a thrust HP calculator Lou sent me.

@ 17.5K 3" pitch = 49.72 mph, 4" pitch = 66.29 and 5" pitch = 82.86 mph

@ 19.5K 3" pitch = 55.4, 4" pitch = 73.87 mph and 5" pitch = 92.33 mph

Pitch has far and away the greatest impact on speeds, rpms much less so, and prop diameter almost none.

Realistic Combat?
 

I know Master airscrew was supposed to be coming out with a 10x3 which I had high hopes would be a great thing for B and 2610 if it were adopted likethe 8x3 in SCC. I'll drop them a line.

Realistic Combat?
 

Looks like the RCCA web site is down.
Mark
RPm limits for 2610 is on the table check out the AMA proposals
http://www.georgiacombat.com/RulesProposals.html

. I think the speed with 2610 and B has alot to do with people not sticking with combat more than a few mid-airs. These proposals can be modified. I hope Master Airscrew comes out with a 10x3 prop. We could set a rpm limit just like SSC.
Make it low enough that header pipes and Ky mouse can won't be needed to be competitive.
Ron

3" pitch is the key
 

Ron, I think there are some gaps in the proposed rule changes.
In Lou's 2610 proposal, they could be flying at 75 mph.
And in Your open B speed reduction idea, some guys would run 9x5's @ 17K rpms's and fly @ 80 mph. C/F, Jimbo and others with Jetts don't like running them at those slow rpms. It's out of their power band. But at 18.5 or 19K with a 3" pitch the best speed anyone can get is 54 mph. And the hot engines are still in their sweet zone for rpms. My best engines will turn an APC 10x3 at 16.2k, so guys with hot engines will out pace me by 7 to 8 mph. I can live with that. It's better than the almost 24 mph difference that can occur now.

So I think a 3" max pitch on the prop with rpms in hte 18.5K range is the best way to go.

I will have to check with my local scale purists to see how they feel about the 50" - 55"rule. I don't particularly care about that part of the rule change.

Realistic Combat?
 

Master Airscrew should have prototype 10x3's available for testing soon. It might be a great spec prop for B and 2610.

Realistic Combat?
 

Mark V
I REALLY hope that the RCCA does slow down ALL of there combat classes. I think that's a great idea.

The Question that begs to be asked is....
 

That surprises me, Jimbo. Why? :confused:

Realistic Combat?
 

I think he's joking.

Realistic Combat?
 

I don't know, WJ. I can remember a time when Jimbo wished we all flew stock Gremmies.

Realistic Combat?
 

I flew 2610 for the first time this past weekend, and it's way too cool! :D IMHO if it's too fast for you, then maybe you should build a SSC Warbird anf fly with the old fogies!

The only change I would like to see in 2610, is change the years to 1939 to 1945!

One other thing going slow does not always save a plane, I saw planes tore up in open b, SSC, and scale,
:stupid: HELLO :stupid: it's combat, planes are going to crash get destroyed, and you will rebuild,or buy another kit, etc,etc.

I enjoyed 2610 so much I will not fly open, anymore with the exception of some SSC demos.

I don't like the 50 to 55" wingspan in 2610, as all the planes will end up looking like SSC Warbirds and we already have those flying now!

Ok I'm getting down off the old soapbox, got scale planes to build! :D

RE: Realistic Combat?
 

Hey Bembo9 perhaps you are thinking along my lines with scale combat? I fly 1/4 scale WW1 and You have to be real careful even when you are simulating combat. I have seen video threads where they put a wireless transmitter and use a headset monitor and you are flying from the "cockpit". What if you used some sort of laser tag device and could get it to activate a servo on your opponents plane which would set off smoke? You would fly around until you got behind your opponent then use the monitor to line him up and fire. A company called Sky Dart has a ground counter but it seems a little pricey and there are those Fighterbirds which I think use some kind of sonic devise to shut down the opponents motor ( not good for 1/4 scale) I know those full scale warbirds you fly in have some sort of sensor that sets off smoke when you hit your opponent. This might be a stretch but I don't think it's rocket science. I know it's a hoot flying the big birds in a scale fashion and and adding the combat factor in a safe way would really get some attention at meets and fun flys. Any ideas?