SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Some of you have asked about Slow Combat Rules so here is a list that we adhere to......very informal....its designed to have fun.
Bottom line is don't take this slow combat stuff seriously.......

Also check out our club photo album site....there are a lot of pics here: [link]http://www.starontech.com/slowcombat[/link]


SLOW COMBAT RULES - sorta!

1.There aren’t any formal rules and stop anyone who wants to introduce them. This is not a competition!
2.Longest streamer, most cuts wins or greatest number of ooh’s and ahh’s.
3.Decide if you want to fly plastic combat planes against wood or plastic vs. plastic or wood vs. wood…your call here!
4.There are no prizes for first place….only bragging rights for that day only.
5.Bragging rights for best NON intentional mid air!!! Intentional mid airs are frowned upon. There will always be some clown that thinks its fun doing a mid-air. Best way around someone like that is not to fly with them.
6.Congratulatory hands shake to all after each round.
7.Loser at the end of the day buys coffee or favorite beverage for the combatants (only if they want too!)
8.Complaining and whining not allowed when you trash yours or someone else’s plane.
9.Select a “handle” that you can call yourself. Something idiotic really helps!
10.Take some pics of the gang and their planes and give it to the club newsletter editor so that the truth can be stretched!!!
11.Have fun.

Oh yes - some other rules

1.Your club’s safety rules MUST be adhered to which must include MAAC and AMA insurances.
2.Combat must be within your defined combat flying window….field edges, fences, trees, post….etc, etc. Its up to you if you want to use hard hats or some sort of protective head gear. I would recommend it.
3.Start with 2 combatants up at a time…well at least until everyone has figured out this stuff…..3-4 is great fun. More than 4 would is wild and a real blast!
4.All combatants should use the same plane, size and geometry defined in this design or a design that is common to your club or group. Please no variations otherwise it becomes a competition and destroys the original intent of this design.
5.No souped up .15” with tuned pipes, high nitro, ball bearings (unless you can negotiate ahead of time and bribe everyone at the field)
6. 30’ cotton string followed by a measured 30’ 2” paper crepe streamer. Please don’t use fishing line or any other type of poly rope. Try to avoid colours as Yellow or White….you just can’t see them…its really not fair.
7..Plane must not weight less than 32 oz. (well do the best you can!) I have seen planes as low as 25 oz, but then you start getting into the competitive thing which is not really what this is all about.
8.All planes must have mufflers with the baffles in place.

REMEMBER: If someone got a kill on me....they were lucky....if I got a kill on them, I'm a good pilot

See ya on the field.

Richard....aka....DA SILVER FOX

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

thats some good guidelines and sounds like a good sport...

maybe the ol' brits over here could do with a sport like that... make sure to take some videos and post them on RCuniverse aswell, woo!

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

You should check around in the UK, there are guys over there flying combat with various rules already.

Personally, I think the above rules will work only in a "club combat" setting where everyone is basically agreeing to not try too hard to win. There are a lot of loopholes and ways that someone who really wants to win can exploit the rules and quickly make it "no fun" for the more casual guys.

That's not a huge deal, just pointing out that while I'm sure those rules work for their club, they may not work well beyond their club.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Yes I totally agree that some people won't follow the rules, but what we found out and what works is that we don't fly with them at all.
After a while, everyone gets to know the "one's" that are drooling and frothing at the mouth looking for a kill.... :)

I also agree that this is more of a "club combat" type of affair, but we are fortunate that there are about 4-5 clubs with the Toronto area and have members from each club join us from time to time, again with no pressure but lots of fun. We never have a "scheduled" event...ie take up a particular time or date.....except for our annual "BATTLE ROYALE" were we do take the gloves off and major repairs are in order after that. This event occurs at the end of the season, the BBQ is fired up and a lot of laughs are in order. Most people think we are nuts doing this slow combat with balsa planes...we see it differently....WE KNOW WE ARE NUTS!!!

Maybe its a Canadian thing....heck we invented hockey :D Who else would skate around on ice with metal blades tied to their shoes and try to hit a flat rubber thing with a wooden stick with no protection (back in the old days....LOL ).

If people want competitive combat, then there are venues for that as well and we encourage people to go down that path if they so desire. We just like to go out and some fun.

See ya on the field

Richard....aka....DA SILVER FOX

www.starontech.com/slowcombat

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

The itch is coming back......gotta start building and getting ready for a bit of slow combat this coming spring and summer.
For .15 size slow combat there are no rules.....just fun.

Checkout this video made by Joshua of the Richmond Hill Gang here in Ontario. http://www.vimeo.com/1868420
Josh did a great job putting this video together....turn up the volume and enjoy.

Also check out our slow combat album web site: www.starontech.com/slowcombat

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

We've been thinking about 'trainer combat' for fun only.
> any 40 size trainer airframe
> .46 or smaller bushing engine
> possibly a prop pitch limit of 5" to keep speed down
> no tuned pipes
I think if we have more 'rules' than that we risk turning it into something too competitive for our group. Several people got the Tower trainers for $50 and others got the Cox for $35.
This might even inspire a few to get into AMA combat.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

I think you are absolutley right there with all the rules and regs. We have been doing this slow combat using .15 size engines for over 8 years now if my memory serves me well and to date we have not had any whining, complaining, etc etc about our slow combat rules. Everyone comes out and we just have fun. Only major rule is safety of course.

Interesting concept using old trainers for slow combat.....definately slow for sure...... I think that there is merit in that concept.

For those who want to get into AMA combat, well there are many venues for that as well, but for the rest of us....slow combat with minimal rules is the way to go.

I would be interested to see how you guys make out with the slowcombat using trainers.

Richard...aka....DaSilverFox

www.starontech.com/slowcombat
http://www.vimeo.com/1868420

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Hey Carrell, I hope ya'lls trainer combat goes well, it should be a blast. I'm now building for the Lone Star Nats in March and I will probably have a few older airframes that I am retiring from combat. If you or anyone in the club wants to try one out lemme know, but be careful its addictive!!

Dane

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Dane, great to hear from you. The combat extravaganza is scheduled for April 11. You should come out. It should be good for a few laughs.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

The key to the most combat for the least amount of work is restricting all up weight and limiting speed to what is just enough for great furball activity. It is possible for RC combat to go all day with no mid airs, we've done it here often enough. 12 matches is a good day's work.
13 ounce, 35 mph planes can "go in" at full speed and never reach the ground. Usually we can pluck them from the hay with the engines still running and throw them back up there. Most rounds last the full 20 minutes on 2 ounces of fuel.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

whats a good design for a 15 engine that is easy to build and cheap... for a club to get started with
john

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Good question. For a 2 cycle .15, I don't have an answer. I have ruined too much equipment with the 40 ounce SSC planes to recommend them for the lowest maintenance fun. Those who don't know any better think they are the ultimate. All I can talk about is what I know from experience, I'm not making anything up. They are an improvement over the higher kinetic energy forms of the sport. I flew [fly] 120 mph C/L combat with 2 HP engines for over 20 years, so I do know a little bit about kinetic energy. In my book, lighter and slower is better. I think plenty of action can take place at 30-35 mph, but the planes need to be engineered to "Vne" that number. It wont happen at 40 ozs, but the 40 oz planes are designed for lots of scoring, not survivability.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

John,

SSC is the class I recommend for simple, fun combat. Been flying it for 6+ years and I'll say it's pretty darn durable. The wings typically last a year or more, and usually I replace them each winter just for looks (dings to the wing, ect) and pass them on to any club member that wants to try combat - they're still plenty flyable. About 8 guys in my club are flying combat right now. If they get interested with the plane they are given, they'll build another themselves.

The reason the class is designed for 40-ounces is so you can build the planes like armored trucks, and yet they're still very manueverable. I have done little repair work last year despite flying a ton of combat. Most of the times you "mid-air" with someone, either they planes "butterfly" for a few seconds and keep flying, or if the engine is killed they float down you can go pick up the plane and fly again in 5 minutes. Can't say damage will never happen, but workshop repairs are not common. Also I'm flying the same OS .15's I've been flying for at least the last few years and they're still going strong. SSC is the most-popular class in the southeast because of its low cost and simplicity.

RCU says you're in Knoxville. There are some guys in the Knoxville area flying Battle Axe's.

My club in Jackson, TN (about 4 hrs from Knoxville) is having an SSC contest on June 20. We'd love to see you there!

Alex


(EDIT for typo and a wording-clarification)

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

combatpigg wrote "13 ounce, 35 mph planes can "go in" at full speed and never reach the ground. Usually we can pluck them from the hay with the engines still running and throw them back up there. Most rounds last the full 20 minutes on 2 ounces of fuel."

What are you flying that will do this? I have flown lots of combat in many classes including 1/2a and they never last this long.

I flew some of the first SSC combat to the 2002 NATS when it was just to test the concept. The thought then was that the weight would keep the speed down which has not turned out to be the case. SSC has really changed since those days. I seldom fly combat these days because I got tired of building and I hated having a tach that we used every round. I still have some open B stuff around but I dismantled my SSC fleet. If I need a tach,I am not flying combat.

Oh yea, I still have a real Combat Pig from Harold Parker. I never fly it though.

Billy

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

WIGGY, we fly 36 inch span models made almost entirely out of balsa, 1/4"x1/4" spars and L.E. About 9 inches of chord with tip fins and central fin. 2 oz Hayes tank, 300 ma nimh pack, Berg RX, HS 81 or 65 servos [elevons only] and either Norvel or AP .061 engines. 15% nitro fuel and always top off a fresh jug of hobby store fuel with castor.
Oh ya, 6x3 props. I cover mine with cheap craft store cellophane and use clear packing tape on the seams. The tip fins are stuck on after covering with doubleback tape.
built to fly, not crash....the lighter you can make them, the less damage they will do to themselves and the other planes.
It's always a good idea to keep the planes as identical in performance as possible to cut down on mid-airs.
We use crepe paper streamers, the 1.5" wide rolls are bandsawed into half. The leaders are made out of light cotton yarn and it helps to use a small fishing swivel to keep the string leaders from twisting up. We pull off about 4 arm lengths of crepe paper to tie to the string leaders, launch the planes, then go have a seat in a lawn chair to enjoy the next 20 minutes of action packed drama. [8D]
No engines ever get damaged, I've only failed a couple of HS81s after hundreds of matches, most any type of battle damage is glued and patched on the spot. Balsa planes of this size and weight are easier to field repair than foamies.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Combatpig, sounds like you fly pretty well fly the same but we cover our foam wings with coloured packing tape. One thing that we found that really helps is to use 2" fiberglass tape on the leading edge of the wing. This really helps when you have a mid air and does tend to protect the wing a bit more. We have also found that the red drywall tape will just about stick to anything....looks like crap but does a great job especially doing field repairs.

We increased the length of the streamer to 30 feet and the string to 30 feet as well and found a dramatic decrease in midairs.

We are also have been using the small Chinese servo's that are about $5-6 when you order them from overseas. They are smaller and lighter than the HS-81's and seem to perform quite well. At those prices..who cares!!! One of the guys in our club orders 30 or so at a time and then distributes them amongst our members.

I guess when it comes to slow combat, we all make do with what we have in order to have some fun.

Richard

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Richard.....Someone else on the same continent who flys 1/2A slow combat?
The truth is, this style of combat isn't fast enough for some guy's taste buds after they've tried it.
Neither is .15 dieselbat on 48 inch foamies, it might even be slower than 1/2A glowbat.....they just chug around. Instead of combat it looks more like ballet.....but they are almost stall proof. After a full day's worth of Dbat, you might as well toss your clothes in a burn barrel. :D

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

What, no plans? You gotta have some plans so others can build similar planes.

There are a couple guys here that would go for something like this for combat. Most of the guys I used to fly with who have stopped flying combat did so because they got tired of building.

Give me the plans!

Wiggy

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Wiggy,

Please check out this link where my original CAUTION was first published: http://www.rcfctoronto.ca/Cautionv3.pdf I had modified the original CAUTION to a new version of CAUTION II but they pretty well fly the same. The new CAUTION II has a new and improved wing profile amd tail section, but if you want to get going and build a couple of these....this is where one can start. Originally we used standard servos but then migrated over to the HS-81 style. The basic design is that of an "ugly stick" but is designed to break apart just after former 2 or former 3. I have seen guys just use some CA or sticky tape and the field and they were back in business. There have been over 150 CAUTION II built in the southern Ontario region and still growning.

I would love to see pics of the planes that your gang has built so that I can put them up on my slow combat web site. Also check out the slow combat album site where you can get a see the plane, some of the construction techniques, the mid airs as well as some of the new designs that I am in the process of building. Some of the designs are pretty radical, but do fly like there is no tomorrow. I especially like the forward swept wings......very stable and will turn on a dime. The VIPER which is a variation on the Gremlin is extremely fast, very fast roll and turn rate and looks pretty cool too!!!

There is no rocket science to these planes, just a whole lot of fun.

Let me know what you think.

Richard www.starontech.com/slowcombat

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Wiggy, oh just one more thing, since I now cut all the wings using a cnc foam cutting machine, all the wings have spars in them instead of the dowel pushed down the center. Its one heck of a lot stronger, but when we first made the wings it was done by hand. So if you can, I would highly recommend 1/4" hard balsa spars on top and bottom of the wing at the thickest section.

Richard

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Wiggy, I built 1 batch of 6 of these planes about 7 or 8 years ago without using any plans, just built them over layout lines I scratched out on the building table. Since then I built a couple of different ones using different airfoils mainly as an experiment. I'll see what I can do to get more detailed info into your hands.
Over 20 + years of building foamies for several different classes of combat I found that they are the way to go unless you want to just buy eastern European ARFs..........until you get down into 1/2A RC combat, then all balsa is the way to go.
Here's why, balsa can be built just as fast as foam, can give a better strength to weight than foam, is undisputably easier to piece back together than foam. A foamie with a mangled break will require way more heavy glue to piece back together. Atypical break in a balsa plane can be fixed with a few drops of CA and maybe a small splint of 1/4" stick.
Remember that the target weight is 13 ozs for agile planes with low impact force. Every ounce of weight you add to that makes the planes less agile, it multiplies the impact [knock down] force, which makes them more self destructive. If they get over 14 ozs because someone has piled on yards of colored packing tape and strapping tape, excess glue, too many extra "ideas" ;) etc., they will get too heavy and become "flying bombs" that the engines can't pull around as well for tight furball combat action.
Keeping the models span compact [36"] has a lot to do with their survivability, also. Longer span planes are tempting, but the AUW has to go up past the point that is "right" for a 1cc engine in "my" style of combat. 36 inches is a perfect standard for several reasons that are obvious here.
Finally, the best time of year to fly is mid Summer when the hay is chest high. We take our cars and drive around in circles along the edge of the field to flatten the grass and create a staging area to launch planes so the streamers don't get snagged.
If or when we mid air....if it happens at all it is usually on the last match of the day when patience is growing thin, the hot sun has killed a few brain cells, or maybe because the beer has effected someone's timing a little. The Sun going low in the sky does change depth perception.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Richard, I did fly 15 size combat years ago in central Florida with Wild Thing 36" balsa planes. These were too fast and too fragile for us and I have sworn off balsa in this size. My last SSC planes had a flat bat fuselage and a foam wing with 1/4 square hardwood spars. These were cloned from the original "Combat Pig" that Harold Parker was building 10+ years ago. They were rudder and elevator with a lot of dihedral in the wing.

I like combatpigg's idea of a flying wing in 1/2a size so there is no fuselage or tail to break off.

My open A was a Lainer RC design that I got from Wayne when Lanier was a local company here is NE Georgia. These had a 48" foam wing with coro tail on a carbon tube. Although they do fly very well, there was still lots of damage from the speed and weight when we happened to mid-air and there were lots of mid-air collisions!

Wiggy

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Richard,

I will get some pictures of me stuff posted for you. I appreciate your suggestions.

Combatpigg,

I sure would like a drawing.

Billy

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Wiggy, it would take 3 or 4 hours for me to draw it up right, time I don't have right now. I took some measurements and it is 36" x 10" overall, and the CG is at 2" from the L.E. All models have tip fins, some have a central fin, too. There are 2 sets of 1/4"x1/4" hard balsa spars and a 1/4'x1/4" balsa L.E. The airfoil is thick enough to house the radio gear. The center rib is 1/4" thick balsa and there is a little bit of 1/32" plywood sheeting that acts as the underlayment to support the motor block and fiberglassing that locks the motor block to the wing. I get the plane all covered before applying the motor block and a few well placed strips of fiberglass.
I apologize for the ugly tip fins on this one, but this was the only plane not parked in the rafters.

RE: SLOW COMBAT RULES.....SORTA!!!! :)
 

Combatpigg & Richard,

Thanks for the pics. I will get something going with this as time permits. Here is a Parker/Flying Z "Combat Pig" that we used to fly with .32s. They are quite different now.
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/v...y/DSCN2227.jpg

I also took a couple pictures of my other combat stuff. First is the Wild Thing 15 with 36" span. It is fun to fly but too easily destroyed in combat.
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/v...y/DSCN2226.jpg

This is a J&C Funbat that we flew in Florida for a short time with 15s also 36" span. They were about $20, if memory serves me correctly, and my Flat Bat we called the "Frigate" because we were flying rudder as opposed to ailerons. It has a 48" wing that I cut from 2" Home Depot foam with 20 degree dihedral and 6 degrees of sweep with 1/4 square spars, top and bottom. I have a jig to cut the slot for the spar so it is straight while the wing panels are swept. It made the center much stronger. We used .25s on these for RCCA combat.
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/v...y/DSCN2225.jpg

I have been through the SPADs and scale combat routine as well. I want what every combat pilot wants, the build once fly forever, combat plane!

Billy