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Why 4WD is important.

Old 01-17-2007, 06:45 PM
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Default Why 4WD is important.

Acid test - 2WD drifting

Okay; I want to settle something.

2WD drifting in 1:10 scale is impossible, as many people assumed it would be, but I have put two different cars to the test.

I tried it first with an F103GT chassis, and all I got was spin-outs. The tail would start to come round then all of a sudden it would go backwards straight off the course I was taking.
I tried this with rubber tires and different branded drift tires, I didn't bother with ABS because it was obvious I required more grip than less. I worked up from a Tamiya drift tire through to a Pit Shimizu Tire (high grip).
Nothing worked, so I decidded the chassis was the wrong balance to drift, since it had no front end weight.

So, at the other end of the scale, I tried a TA03F; except without the front diff installed, making it essentially a RWD car. This handeled better than the F103GT and was surprisingly easy to drive, but that was with rubbers. Trying to get the rear out was harder, but if it did, there was no going back. It was instant donut time, every time.
I took the same steps with tire setups as before, but with no luck, just easier to break traction, harder to drive quickly and easier to loose control.

So would you all agree that's all the tests we can apply? If anyone else has any ideas then shout now, but back up your ideas with technical info, and a possible test.

So that's why all 1/10 drift cars are 4wd. The front wheels need to be able to straighten the car up again, pulling it out of a drift.

I've seen people post 'why 4wd?' and I've even seen replies that '2WD drifting is easy, but 4WD drifting is easier'. This has been disproved.

So if you're looking to get into the hobby, make it 4wd, because 2wd is impossible.

Comments welcomed.

Chris.
Old 01-17-2007, 07:45 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

I will agree...I have never been able to see 2wd drift...so all I hear is rumors. You did a good test and a second one to provid some proof. very nice. thank you.
Old 01-18-2007, 02:31 AM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

4wd pulls you out of the poop when bad things happen. so yeah

bump to that
Old 01-18-2007, 05:03 AM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

AWD makes things consistent and easy. Having driven my friends' 1/10 TC's, it's wonderfully more relaxing than trying to drift my little RC cars.

RWD RC drifting involves zero front grip, and modest rear grip, and lots of throttle control. Try the experiment again with PVC fronts and HPI rears, C.A.R. I've gotten results out of a Mini-Z MR02 in a similar fashion, and I'm currently designing and producing another 1/28 RWD for drifting purposes.
Old 01-18-2007, 06:18 AM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

i always wondered how those mini's are when drifting seeing as they are rwd.

how are those 1/18 and 1/36 cars? anyone?
Old 01-18-2007, 05:14 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

Well no, the majority of 1/28 drift cars are Xmods, and Mini-Z AWD's. A few racers and nuts (I qualify as a nut) try to drift their RWD Mini-Z's, usually involving very hard rubber tires and hard suspension setups. I'm one of the few to use plastic tires up front and excessively soft front suspension combined with hard rubber rears and hard rear suspension. That's given me good results, my largest challenge is high-speed turn-in, and dealing with tile gaps.
Old 01-18-2007, 05:44 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

Why is AWD Needed for RC Drift??

The Reason why AWD Is Needed for RC Drift is Simple.
Weight Transfer..

There is no Easy way to Set up a 2WD Car in 1/10th Scale to Drift.

As the RC Car enters the Corner, momentum pushes the rear of the Car forward making them want to shoot past the Front wheels, thus, a Spin is Induced..

We need a force to help pull the front of the car in the direction required..


AWD is needed as an Opposing force to counter act momentum.
When an AWD Car enters a Corner, Momentum pulls the Rear wheels forward but now there is a force pulling the front of the car in the direction the car needs to go, counter acting momentum making the car more easy to control.. spins do happen but are more easily controlled..


Larger Scale 2WD Cars can Drift, as Weight Tranfer can be acheived.. but not in the 1/10th or Smaller

People get Tailing out and Drifting Confused..
a 2WD can Tail out, where the Tail Steps out for a little, then spins the car around..

Drifting is getting the whole Car to move Sideways and hold this motion in a Controlable fashion
Old 01-18-2007, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

ORIGINAL: magnat
Drifting is getting the whole Car to move Sideways and hold this motion in a Controlable fashion
And I maintain that a properly setup RWD can do this. Throttle control can be optimized to such a degree that the wheels slip the perfect amount to match the car's full countersteer; if you can attain enough countersteer angle (45+ degrees) then keeping the car sideways is easy. Otherwise, high-speed high-angle drifts are difficult because you need to kick the rear out, but not too far out because your countersteering capabilities are not enough.

Also, magnat: weight transfer is the only way to get a RWD to drift. You just have to work around it. Set the car up such that weight transfer is very pronounced; when you brake, weight and cornering power shifts to the front, and you turn. Immediately you let go of the brakes, countersteer and add throttle, shifting weight back to the rear end and preventing a spin. Then traditional drift theory applies again and you control the throttle and steering to match a cornering line.

The front end must use plastic tires, as hard as possible, to prevent the spin condition you describe. Without front grip, the rear wheels do the majority of the work; you can't give them too much grip or you'll 1) pull out of drifts early or 2) be unable to maintain high-angle wide-radius drifts, but they must have more grip than the fronts.



To bring this back to topic, AWD has the following benefits:

- It gives the car a much larger 'sweet spot' with regards to setup; the driver can pick any style they choose and change the car to match.
- It gives the driver more mid-corner options, as AWD is inherently stable and the driver can adjust without having to deal with changing the balance of the car.
- It's consistent. You don't have to rely on weight transfer, and therefore you can slide any place, any time you want.
- It's easy to learn. It takes far less experimentation to learn how to deal with 4 powered wheels all sliding, than to deal with 2 powered wheels sliding, and 2 unpowered wheels that may or may not slide at any given point in time.
Old 01-18-2007, 11:47 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

i want a mini drifter!!!!!
Old 01-19-2007, 04:15 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

Im with color0. Like Ive said in other threads, "Its hard, but not impossible"
Old 01-21-2007, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

i hve an idea, get a 2wd car, but a gyro into it, stick some drift rims on, then when the car starts to spin out the gyro will save it

try it , or ask Lunchboxer to tape up some of his tyres
Old 01-30-2007, 08:25 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

sorry i know this is a bad question but im just a newbie so please be gentle...what´s a front end? and how do I get my car into a weight transfer? sorry if i wasted your time but i have a car that is like junk in my shelf and i want to use it to do do drift if posible...it´s an rwd
Old 01-31-2007, 03:33 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

Finally! Some actual experienced drivers telling us it CAN be done, lol.

My tmaxx drifts great as a 2wd, I too have hard compound tires in the front and softies in the rear. My fronts are 5" tall with a chevron pattern and the rears are 6" tall with a shallow cross hatch tread that goes halfway up the sidewall. Its all in the throttle control and weight transfer, and since the maxx has a huge amount of suspention it transfers weight very deliberatily, meaning I can see when it starts to roll forward, then kick out and I respond with less throttle and counter steering. I can do many complete, large drift circles (bout 12ft diam) with enough control. Locking the rear diff was the most important mod for this to be possable with the Tmaxx.

If someone wants to donate a video camera to me, Id have no problem posting a vid of me doing it!

Old 01-31-2007, 05:11 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

It's easy to learn. It takes far less experimentation to learn how to deal with 4 powered wheels all sliding, than to deal with 2 powered wheels sliding, and 2 unpowered wheels that may or may not slide at any given point in time
Which is the WHOLE Damned point to Getting an AWD RC Car.. AWD Will Drift when you want it to..


As For the T-Max.. I always thought they had AWD?


If You can get a RWD 1:10th Scale Car to Drift and Drift as good as a AWD then I am Happily awaiting that Vid..

Old 02-01-2007, 01:52 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

As spartan said, I'm with color0. I have a 1:22 nissan 350z. Magnat said it was impossible to drift with a toy-grade rwd. But:
-al he knew was that the standard model comes with no engine but a chip. I agree with him that it ******! But I have a friend who works in a hobby center and tuned it whit 3 more chip's. Now it's similar to a hobby grade rc.
-I weighted the front out as u said and putted grip tires behind and drift on front. Now it drifts better than ever!!! THAN YOU color0!!!!


Old 02-01-2007, 02:06 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.


ORIGINAL: sensei5

As spartan said, I'm with color0. I have a 1:22 nissan 350z. Magnat said it was impossible to drift with a toy-grade rwd. But:
-al he knew was that the standard model comes with no engine but a chip. I agree with him that it ******! But I have a friend who works in a hobby center and tuned it whit 3 more chip's. Now it's similar to a hobby grade rc.
-I weighted the front out as u said and putted grip tires behind and drift on front. Now it drifts better than ever!!! THAN YOU color0!!!!


I, and many other people, will have to see a video of a nikko drifting before we believe you. Also, it must have a motor to be able to move. What is this 'chip' you're talking about? An rx/esc all in one? How does having 4 of those in there help it drift, unless they're dead weight in the front?
Old 02-01-2007, 02:11 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

wst50,
I know I have to prove many ppl a nikko can drift,but let me say you: it's not the standard model!!!
+ I don't know what chip's they are, he said they were improving the performance and acting like an engine.I also found it weird but I'm no expert in chip's or anything electric. I will ask him what it is when he's back from vacation
Old 02-01-2007, 02:13 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

wst,I don't know what chips they are. He said they where performance-enhancing. If anyone will donate me a camera I will make the clip
Old 02-01-2007, 05:08 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

Performance enhancing. Like stickers.
Old 02-01-2007, 05:43 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

ok i wil prove that sensei5´s 350z nikko can drift http://youtube.com/watch?v=2K4i8hlKSSA watch it....i know its not a good drift...but does any other stock rwd, especially nikko, can do it?
Old 02-02-2007, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

how do I determine the weight needed up front?
Old 02-02-2007, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.


ORIGINAL: altimex

ok i wil prove that sensei5´s 350z nikko can drift http://youtube.com/watch?v=2K4i8hlKSSA watch it....i know its not a good drift...but does any other stock rwd, especially nikko, can do it?
That isn't drifting... it's slowing to a crawl, turning tightly, then tailing out when the driver puts the throttle on... it's turning more than drifting.
Old 02-02-2007, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.


ORIGINAL: sensei5

how do I determine the weight needed up front?

Trial and error.
Old 02-02-2007, 06:16 PM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

oh sorry then...i just thaught it was drift...btw sensei5 how do you drift with your nikko?
Old 02-03-2007, 05:41 AM
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Default RE: Why 4WD is important.

does drifting a baja in wet mud count??....lol...


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