Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

I was at the flying field the other day and completed my second and third solo flights. On my second solo I earned my blue dot which at our club means I can fly without an instructor now. Some of the membership say it really means that I have progressed from student to entertainment!

However, on my first flight I was really not doing great as I had four engine killing landings. I did more walking than flying. I was over controlling and putting the plane in less than ideal attitudes.

I had done so well the previous trip out that I started questioning what was different. I then thought about the fact that I had spent the last week playing with the flight sims. In my opinion, the flight sims hurt me. They were the cause of the problems. The next flight I just
went back to what I learned at the field and it worked wonderfully.

My point is this...

Many people here say that spending money on a flight sim could save you the cost of a plane. I'm beginning to think this is a fallacy. In fact, buying and using a flight sim may just actually cost you a plane. Not only are they not very realistic to what I see at the field, they can build overconfidence which is dangerous. They may be great for learning maneuvers, but I am not sure they are good for learning to fly. They may also develop bad habits which do not work well at the field.

Nothing beats a good instructor.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

I'm intrigued.

You've been flying with an instructor who cleared you to fly solo. And you then did some bad landings. And now figure it's the flight sims fault?

It's your fault. Not the flight sim nor the instructor's fault.

You've had two different opportunities to learn the proper FUNDAMENTALS. One of them, the instructor you've been flying with and who thought you were ready to go on your own, is more responsible for your performance than the other. But bottom line, you're the one flying the airplane. Maybe you weren't actually ready and needed more time with the instructor, but then, he said you were ready. Blame him? nope....

But I'm still intrigued. What is it about having an opportunity to practice some things on the pc that make them responsible for your landing hard a number of times?

You do know that you can turn up the turbulence and wind and variablilty of both on one of the better simulations, don't you? But the fault isn't that simulating without the difficulty factor turned up can cause problems at the field. The fault is believing that if you've done a few hours on a pc simulator, that any bad landings you then do at the field are then attributable to the pc.

If you're going to look for a scapegoat for those landings, why not include your instructor.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Yes, many say that it could. And it often does. But nobody says it WILL keep you from landing hard. Or that it's guaranteed that you won't crash. The positives of SPENDING MONEY for a sim have been more than sound bite simple. Don't make the mistake of oversimplifying what others have said. And realize that they might have used their sims effectively to help them, so there may be things you missed.

If they have not seemed realistic to you, but did to others, there is still a good probability that they are what the others have said about them. Personally, I fly a Sukhoi, Ultimate, UltraStick, Tiger2, and P40 that are all available in my favorite sim. I've found that the sim versions fly in the sim very much like the real models fly at the field. And I'm flying the Skybolt on the sim in anticipation to finishing the ARF that's coming together in the shop. I expect to have a leg up on what to expect when I maiden the little sucker. I figure that the $30 I spend to get the add-on that has the Skybolt in it will be $30 well spent. And it'll certainly be $30 worth of enjoyment.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

That's an excellent thought.

Noone should believe that they are the way to learn to fly exclusive of using a GOOD instructor. And you're right, they're great for learning maneuvers. Matter of fact, I've setup my sim with the airplanes I'm flying at the field, and I practice even the simple things. I turn up the turbulence, set the wind like it is predicted to be "tomorrow" (usually a crosswind), and practice at home the night before. I've learned to do short field landing, where you cross up the rudder/ailerons to the point that I have more confidence when I try it at the field. No way have I learned to do that perfectly, but with more real time on the sticks at the field I expect to be better sooner thanks to the sim.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

No, I had some bad landings BEFORE soloing.

Of course it is my fault. What I am saying is that it is my opinion that the simulator hurt me at the field. (not helped)

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Good that you warned everyone.

Some things work for some people and not others. Simulators are not a guaranteed method of learning to fly, are they.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

(Wow what horrible grammar I had. Guess it was too late last night. :)

Indeed interesting. Since there is no mention of how this conclusion came about I felt compelled to register and respond to just this thread because it hits home for me. I never thought about RC planes until yesterday was out with a friend and was in a hobby shop and saw several cool things. On impulse decided to pick up a Hangar 9 P51 trainer because it had simulation software and presumed I could fly the plane in a day or two. 2.5 hours on the sim that night, next day I sucessfully took off and landed my plane. Not bragging because I had a trainer linked in to help when I got in a bind but it the end after taking it up and circling for about 8 to 10 times, I was able to take off by myself 2 times and bring it in and land 1 times with no helpd. (Actually landed 2 times but the guy linked to me got nervous on the send landing because I bounced a little and he took over on the bounce and took off.)

What I will post for others contemplating sim software.

The software I used came with the plane was not very elaborate and the things it helped me with. Basically familiarity with holding the controller, steering, taking off and landing.

What it didn't help with, beings it's not the greatest sim software, it didn't account for taking off on rough, grassy surface, wind etc. However, I'm online right now actually looking at something I can plug my the JR XF 421 that came with my plane that will simulate the environment alot better. Also something that allows me to practice adjusting my trim and using more options on controllers.

Flying a plane is just like anything else. You have to train your coordination and muscles to react as you can't think when your trying to do something. If you have to think then it took too long. This is what the sim software will do for you.

Nothing is ever going to be 100% accurate, for every day, every altitude etc. Everything changes and that's up to you to adjust. However, sim software does give a good foundation to build off of.

Having said that, don't presume that you can do all types of crazy stuff on a sim and then just go out and do it with an RC. That's the same as if you have get good with a trainer and then go out doing acrobats with a biplane. You still have to get used to it and ease into it and learn the nuances and adjust to the plane. What I mean is yesterday, a guy showed up with a stunt plane that he flies all the time and took off doing all kinds of stuff without warming up. But when he tried my P51, he took it up nice and easy and felt the plane out by steering, elevating etc and then when he got a little comfortable he worked his way into some more advance things.

That's what I was trying to explain about my perception of the sim software. It gets you used to steering with the plane going away from you and coming back. What the rudder does etc. It gave me enough feel to take off and land and manuever around in the air. But I'm sure if find the "good stuff" it will help me with the other stuff as well.

I just don't see how anyone though can say it hurts. The only way is if you get false confidence and think after a week you take off and you can act crazy with the plane. But that's not the softwares fault, that's the flyers. To me that's like flying one model of plane and switching to another and expecting trying to fly it with out adjusting to it and then blaming the first plane for screwing you up. (It's not the planes fault. :)

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Yeah, looking at the account is intriguing. It's also somewhat puzzling.

The account starts off at Nightone's 2nd and 3rd solo flights. And seems to describe what excellent results he got with them. And then the account seems to shift to the first one of them, or maybe to the first solo flight ever. Truth is, the flight he calls his "first flight" could also be his first ever flight since it wasn't described as his first solo flight. And that first flight sounds like it was on a previous day, but that's not clear either. whatever...........

After sorting out the order of the flights, it still appears that Nightone is learning to fly really fast. And that during the process, the worst thing he can blame on the sim are some hard landings. I'd assume if there were other bad habits of any consequence, he'd have described them in order to make his case stronger. And he'd have mentioned them to warn beginners who expect sims to teach them to fly without risk. To warn beginners and instructors what to look out for.

But whether or not his "first flight" is actually a description of his 2nd solo flight or of his first solo flight or of his first ever flight, it looks like he's making a very good showing learning to fly with a "real model airplane". Good on 'im.

And it also appears that about all that's been done badly are those hard landing on his first flight.

You know, having taught a number of people to fly, I'd say that his sim training did him a world of good. There's no mention of how long he's been flying with an instructor, but there's also no mention that it's been a long process. And no accounts of almost crashing often because of bad habits picked up elsewhere.

I've suggested to a bunch of beginners that they supplement their learning with a sim. That the $200 is an excellent value. And now have another reason to keep doing that.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Just for those thinking about trying a simulator first : Good for you!

The simulator will NOT hurt you. If you use it properly, you can go from no experience to being able to handle the plane flying toward you, before you ever try a flying plane. You can get used to making approaches, you can get used to the landing process, you can even try aerobatic maneuvers.

The simulator is not a complete training course, so I still recommend getting a good instructor. My contention is, that instructor will have an easier time, and you will have a shorter training period, if you use a simulator first and practice with it through the training period.

After the training period, you can practice intricate maneuvers on the sim before trying them with your plane, and that is another benefit.

Just my 2¢ worth.
Dave Olson

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Well I think that a flight sim is just like any other tool, used properly it works great and achieves the desired result, used improperly and it does not achieve it... :eek:

I personally found that spending a number of hours on the sim really helped when I got to the actually flying the trainer stage with my instructor/buddy. I did find that using the sim after those first few trainer flights created a problem in that it was too easy to push the reset button on crashing. So I quit using it for a period of time. Now that I've flown quite a bit more and want to try the IMAC thing, the sim is providing real good practice for new maneuvers using an imported copy of the model I fly with the physics/parameters modified for a more realistic performance. I also try to fly the sim just like a real model now in that a successful flight includes all phases, takeoff, maneuvers, and a successful landing. Adding in wind and other variables will also help improve your skill, or lessen the time required to attain that skill on a real model. All of the people/instructor types I've spoken to about using sims have said the same thing about them; that they are a real help in learning to fly and substantially reduce the cost factor of learning to fly.

It's really helped with trying to learn how to fly the micro helicopter I just bought as well... :D

So yes, a sim does have it's limitations, but used appropriately I think it is an invaluable tool for learning and helping to maintain eye/fingers coordination in between trips to the modelport, and a lot of fun when it's impractical to be flying the real model.

Just my opinion... [8D]

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Simulator helped me learn how to fly more than an instructor did. Learned orientation, and with repetition had the basics down. At the field, it was just execution of what I had been practicing. Instructor didn't have to spend much time teaching, just testing my skills.
If I were to train someone, I would have them get a sim first. After learning to fly helis, the sim really shines even more as an aid in learning to fly.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Here is a timeline:

8/17 Bought the Plane (Alpha 60)

8/18 Got the Cockpit Master flight sim installed but didn't play with it more than a couple of minutes. Only took off and tried to trim it up to see if it worked. Another family member played on it for a little while after I got the controls working and semi-trimmed.

8/20 Went to the field and I had 1 flight with an instructor on a buddy box. He took off and I landed. This was my first flight ever on the plane.

8/21 - 9/6 Had several more flights with the instructor on the buddy box. Take off everytime and have had about 10-12 landings. Instructor unplugs the buddy box and I have my 1st solo flight. (with him standing near me)

9/8 - Played on G3 for a couple of hours

9/9 - Played on AFPD for a couple of hours

9/10-9/13 Played on APFD more and G3 once.

9/14 Went to the flying field. 1st flight of the afternoon resulted in 4 prop killing landings and some pretty crappy flying. Second flight (or session) yield better results and after one of the landing I soloed again (2nd one ever). I proceeded to land 3 times each direction, figures 8s, etc. and got my blue dot. Soloed for the the 3rd time on my 3rd and last flight of the day and brought it down sooner than normal because it was getting so dark.

Only previous flying experience was self taught on my 3-channel (no Ailerons) Eaglet 50 over 20 years ago. Had several flights before it "flew away" one day. (no controls) I know now that it was 99% a battery issue as I didn't even charge it that much back then. (or check voltages)

Fear can be a great teacher and the fear of crashing the plane just doesn't happen in the Sim.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Also...

Why is it that anytime I mention anything bad about a flight sim there are a bunch of "Sim Defenders" all over it?

I'm beginning to the think that there are a lot of people who work for the Sim companies on this forum. :)

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

I have to point out to anyone reading this thread that "Nightone" started a thread awhile back talking about how sims were way overpriced and that they should have a lower price point, blah, blah, blah.Then he started a poll thread asking how much people wanted to pay for a sim. (which is not ending up in his favor by the way). And these threads were before him flying the sims and soloing. Guess he broke down and spent the money.....However I doubt he's very happy about it. So to be fair, if everyone who answers his posts is a "sim supporter" or some type of an employee, it should be known that he has been a sim "basher" well before he got one.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

First, in regards to the poll...

As it currently stands 25% of those who answered have stated that they do not own a sim but would probably/definitely buy one at the $99 price point. Another 7% bought something else because of the price. In fact only 37% of the people bought one of the big sims and think that it is a good deal. 20% bought but didn't necessarily think they got a great deal.

So you could say they have a 37% approval rating. Not too sporty.

You also say that in this small market segment that 25% of the people are potential buyers that you are losing through the price point. Is that insignificant? The companies can decide.


I'm not here to bash sims. I came here like a lot of other people do simply looking for information. What I've discovered so far is:

1. They are too expensive - although some say not
2. Not that great a creating a real world experience
3. Have not be proven to "save" you the cost of a plane
4. Seem to have a large group of supporters who probably do so to justify spending so much on it.
5. A lot of people see them for what they are...a learning tool that may or may not help with the real thing
6. A lot of instructors recommend them, others don't

These are just my opinions...


Read that again "cwehner"... These are just *my* opinions and that certainly doesn't make them a fact.

Also, I let me say again that I have no financial, professional, or personal relationships with any sim manufacturers or hobby companies. I am also not a customer of any of the sim producers at this time.

So when is the demo of FsOne coming out??

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

So you don't "own" one you just "played" on one or two a couple of times? I don't think thats fair to say that they caused you to get worse then. Maybe you're just not very good at flying planes. I can tell anyone for sure that a couple of times on a sim "playing" will NOT make you better or worse of a pilot. What I was saying is that you claiming that the sim made you worse is kinda hard to take for fact with your known stance on sims. Thats all, pretty simple. I have really never heard of someone saying that a sim hurt them. I can't recall ever seeing that, in fact quite the opposite. Lots of sim success stories. Your post just kinda seemed outa place for what you normally hear. And now to hear that you dont own one, only played on a couple.....well, I think that says enough.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

A sim is worthless without the discipline to learn the right way. A good instructor will help, but if you practice on the sim correctly, then you'll be in excellent shape. I've personally spent thousands of hours of dedicated learning time on G3. My practice paid off bigtime yesterday when I tailtouched my Funtana .40 for the first time. I don't care about the worthless sim price poll. I'm glad that my sim helped me and I would pay a lot more than $200 for it now that I know what I do. It's almost assinine to say "I played on a few sims for a few hours and my flying sucked at the field" Well duh!!! Do it right! Owning a sim won't make you any good. Using it extensively will.


50%

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Good post!

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

I sat in front of the display, transmitter in hand, flying planes on the simulator. I call that playing. It certainly is not working.

I spent at 2-3 hours with G3 and 5-6 with APFD in the comfort of my home.

Maybe I'm a natural at flying planes and I don't need a sim.

I'm telling you that the sims had an negative effect on my flying at the field. I don't need your validation to make it so. The first thing I said after my first session was that I got to quit playing on the sims because it felt like I took a step backwards.

You sound more interested in veiled personal attacks than considering the possibility that a sim can hurt.

Oh, and people celebrate successes and not failures. How many of the people can you name who failed to make the first Trans-Atlantic flight? Also, just because you haven't heard of something doesn't make it a fact.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

You need serious help here. You're right. Sims can hurt your flying ability. I know little about you, so I have no idea if you are a natural to RC or not. What I do know is that until I buckled up and worked hard at learning on my sim, I regressed. I used to crash for fun on the sim. Now, I fly the sim plane like my real plane. I concentrate on how the sim plane is flying and I do way more than twittle the sticks. Since this paradigm shift in my sim use, I have come a long way. ya need to do it right or you will hurt your skills.(as you seem to claim)

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

I think you hit the nail on the head (except for the serious help part).

It would appear as if the only way to get better at flying is to practice. The more practice, the better you get just like a lot of other things in life. Unfortunately, I don't feel that I have gotten good practice out of the sims. In fact, I would say my experience was that it was bad practice.

I'm debating not even using them at all anymore.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Most of the stuff on the internet is worthless.

Just because something doesn't have worth to you doesn't make it worthless. I don't care about Futaba radios, but maybe you do.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

The problem is NightOne, you have a negative opinion of the sims before you started using them. (Plus, am I the only one to find it wierd that he goes from complaining about price to buying 2 sims to use in the "comfort of his own home"?)

Then you have a bad flight, and blame it on the sim. It certainly isnt the inexperience of the pilot, so it must be the evil, overpriced sim.

You landed hard. It was you. It was not the sim. My first landing was is about a 10 mph 90 degree crosswind in a stock nexstar. Thats not an easy landing. I sat it down perfectly having never landed in anything other than a sim. Landing my first taildragger was much the same, i praticed in the sim for a week, then did it flawlessly. I learned to fly Helis, which is much more complicated than learning to fly a plane, in the sim, then bought a blade cp and was hovering on the 2nd charge, FF on the 3rd.

If you don't like the sims, then dont use them. But placing blame on a sim, when it was nothing more than pilot error, is almost slanderous, and you have no real data or information to back it up. If you're breaking 4 props in a day, or a weekend, or even a month, you dont need to be flying solo. I think in the 2 years I've been flying i've broken 3, and they all came from high-speed low passes (limbo)...Ive nicked them a few times froma mild landing or flipping the plane on the ground with the help of the wind (nexstar pilots know what im talking about)

Im not trying to lay into you, but accept the responsibility of your mistake, dont try to push it off on something unrelated.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

Who says I bought them? That is the problem with making assumptions. Also, I didn't break 4 props. I just killed the engine.

So a sim worked for you which means that it is infallible? You have no real data either or information either.

If I have the the money to buy radios, planes, and engines then who are you to tell me that I shouldn't be flying solo.


I'm glad that all of you are tickled pink with your flight sims. I'll go elsewhere.


I'm done here. Nuff said.

RE: Flight Sim Fallacy?
 

goodbye