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TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

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TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Old 04-09-2009, 02:59 PM
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NikolayTT
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Default TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hi Fellows,
In the Drag racers the use of the TF (Top Fuel) is a must.
Usually they say it is 90% Nitromethan + 10% Methanol
but I do not know what is there exactly.
Is this TF used by someone in RC engined and What Kind
of Engine is that; has or not Spark Ignition? I believe
in the Drag racers they have two spark plugs per
cilinder. Maybe some in RC modify their gas engines
to run on TopFuel or that is too crazy ?
Please, post some specific info; Thanks,
Nick
Old 04-09-2009, 03:19 PM
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mike early
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

My buddy went to the Toledo show last week
He brought back a gallon of 100% Nitromethane.
High Dollar. But he plans on making 10 gallons of fuel with it.
IF he can find a place to buy methanol.
Old 04-09-2009, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hello Nick, 90% nitro mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Yes and no.
In the late 80's early 90's when I raced here in the USA for a manufacture with 1/8th Scale, on-road, R/C cars. We did some very strange things to insure a good qualify effort. Prior to the EPA, there were pleny of guys in the air also that carried little jars with them that had to be kept on ice. Real Ice the chemicals, many had very low flash points. Liquids that would go from a pretty smooth looking green exposed to heat changed colors to , yes blue azure, real cool looking stuff. But nasty stuff also, DON'T SHAKE THE PRETTY BLUE JAR AT 80f. Things go boom..............

Yes we were crazy back than. To your question. Seemed like most people used 30% nitro content fuel for the cars. More competitive drivers used 40% at normal club racing. National races 50% was the norm for me. This was what we used to race with for 20 minutes if I remember correctly. But for qualifying and the mains seems like if you went for a national win you may have used 60-70% in the race. But the nasty part of qualifying to go for a pole 90% may have been the fuel in the black cauldron type of things.

Now does a engine last NO. Fuels of this type tend to be very corrosive to any metal item but to aluminum it was like acid. Do not ever look for an idle mixture or any correct high speed tuning, the motor would never last that long. 5 Minutes was not a sure thing to get from a new than $100.00 stock motor, heavily modified so you paid as much as $500.00 for the best. ROAR was and is the governing body, I just cant see that stuff being done today's world.

Look at the class of top fuel, look at the registrations for the class. Seems all of the teams have major sponsors, think why do they do a tear down on every run??? They throw away pistons from a meet at a un-believable rate. Ever at a drag race, ask for one....... On I'm sorry they now sell their new trash for fan that may pay more than the original price on a new piston.

We we did use nitro at 90% when someone else pays the bill. I should add the oil for a 90% mix, there was only about 3% alcohol and only 7% oil, no not ordinary oil, oil out of Europe that cost back then $1500.00 a 5 gallon bucket. I don't need to purchase that in today's market

Nick Be Safe n' Enjoy
Al
Old 04-09-2009, 03:37 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

For glow fuel to work in a 'normal' glow engine you need methanol and oil. The "Top Fuel" blend has a little methanol. If you add oil to the "Top Fuel" blend you will reduce the nitro and methanol percentages.
Old 04-09-2009, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

ORIGINAL: hdpartman

...We did some very strange things to insure a good qualify effort. Prior to the EPA, there were pleny of guys in the air also that carried little jars with them that had to be kept on ice. Real Ice the chemicals, many had very low flash points. Liquids that would go from a pretty smooth looking green exposed to heat changed colors to , yes blue azure, real cool looking stuff. But nasty stuff also, DON'T SHAKE THE PRETTY BLUE JAR AT 80f. Things go boom..............


Nick Be Safe n' Enjoy
Al

What is the % of Nitro in the fuel when one gets too low flash point ? - I do not want to get in trouble; please clarify.
Thanks, Nick
Old 04-09-2009, 04:09 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?


ORIGINAL: mike early

My buddy went to the Toledo show last week
He brought back a gallon of 100% Nitromethane.
High Dollar. But he plans on making 10 gallons of fuel with it.
IF he can find a place to buy methanol.
Hey Mike, try some of the circle gang out there. Midgets, Sprint Caras all use the same. If you need 55 gallon drum easier. Call a local chemical plant. Should be able to find in a local yellow pasges, oh and be sure if you order a drum, you do not need the medical grade. Normal stuff is great. Try Baker Oils if your looking for lube or Klot. Klotz always has some great people to help and advise you on what else you may want.

Luck to you.
Al
Old 04-09-2009, 04:10 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?


I did a response somewhere on RCUNIVERSE on this drag racing issue details (do a search under my name with tags drag racer etc )

For modellers the highest known ratio I know of is 60% nitro to use with F1 tunnel hull model boats using glow race tuned 10cc engines like Rossi K&B or similar.

However there is nothing in the model solutions that can compare to Drag racers using ~85% nitro due to scale issues

A 90KG V8 produces for a few seconds ~7000BHP or some 75BHP per kilo of engine or about 30BHP per pound (However after two seconds the spark plugs are melted and the engine is dieseling for the last few seconds of the run .These drag racers cant produce this power for much longer than ~10 seconds as there is no cooling other than what nearly pure liquid nitro fuel supplys to the engine and so the engine block soaks up the excess heat but engine would melt if the engine runs for tooo long )

A 500 gramm 10 CC model engine in turbines on 30% nitro would produce at best 4.5BHP or ~9 bHP per kilo or ~4BHP per pound of engine or ~1/5th the power to weight of a drag racer

A 500 gramm 10 CC model engine in OB on 60% nitro would produce at best slightly more than n 4.5BHP or ~9 bHP per kilo or ~4BHP per pound of engine .


We can project the net gain from going from 30% to 60% nitro to even 85% nitro if we could get the model engine to run on it is unlikly to increase power significantly in model engines for issues to do with scale such as the fact that the metal would probably melt in such small engines .

Also putting high nitro into slow mo engines like the typical sports 10 or 15 engine in the average model car will probably just break the con rods from to high a RPM for motors meant to use say 16% nitro .

You need to specify what motor it is for what use eg heli or car whatever

Adding a tuned pipe will often produce the extra power without making a high nitro fuel

Bear in mind if the engine on the model could run 100% nitro that would mean the tank would empty about four times faster so making the cost to run the engine about 20 times more expensive on average than using normal glow fuel and at most the BHP would only be ~60% more a normal glow fuel .

This is because the nitro methane is sorta really like a 10% fuel as in a hydro carbon and 90% liquid air as in 90% of the molicule is nitrogen and oxegen .So the engine doesnt have to drag in air from the atmoshere to burn it just burns the oxegen already stored in the fuel and the nitrogen gas heat up so expands the hot gasses and the hydro carbon gets burned up.

In Fuel the only thing that burns is hydro carbons .Gasoline (Petrol benzines) are nearly ~100% carbon
hydrogens and there fore with oxegen from the atmosphere as air supply it is the best MPG but the least power

Methanols and Ethanols Fuel are nearly ~70% carbon hydrogens ~30% oxegen and there fore with less oxegen from the atmoshere needed for the air supply the MPG is down but but the power is up mayby 30% over the gasoline but the fuel use also is up ~30%

Nitro is like methanol or Ethanol but more again as the carbon hydrogen is lowwer mayby less than 20% and the myby 40% oxegen so evething is up power and fuel use and for reasons not known cost of the fuel is much higher


So when you see a 5 liter fuel can with like 60% nitro fuel in it then it really means that its a ~50% fuel and a 50% liquid atmoshere or 2.5 liters of fuel

As nitro is often 10 times the price of methanol and it get used up 4 times faster than methanol it translates to meaning that 60% nitro fuels will cost the modeller often 4 times as much to run the engine than a low 5% nitro fuel

It helps explains why so many heli pilots end up in the poor house when they do 3d acro on 30% nitro fuel.

It also explains why in Europe the majority of modelers prefer high compression motors like MVVS or Super Tiger which can run well on low nitro fuels as Nitro in europe is often three times more costly than than the USA



Balsaeater






Old 04-09-2009, 04:15 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hey Nick, Sorry if I got you confused. Flash point was on other nasty lil chemicals that are no longer evan available in the US any longer. We were using these as blending agents and too lower flash point of a standard mix. I would check around, I think If I were to use a motor at 50% nitro mix, I may get 15 flights on a engine.

Just wanted to answer your question, I was not giving you a recipe just some old experience.

Al
Old 04-09-2009, 04:26 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Thanks !!! This is making the things very clear.

Then back to the Question about safety: - If I buy Nitro, shall I mix it as soon as possible with
Methanol and/or Oil in some proportion so to have it far from the unstable point when it will
be dangerous to be around it ? For example, should I mix 1 galon of Nitro to proportion of:
A) methanol:nitro = 4:1, or
B) Oil:Nitro = 1:1
and be safe that way, and later when needed add extra Oil and Methanol to come to
let say 10% Nitro, 20% Oil, and 70% Methanol, which seems to be working quite nicely
for my OS engines, especially BGX-10; what do you advice ?
Regards,
Nick
Old 04-09-2009, 04:33 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hi Al,

I saw on the containers of those TopFuel guys the label and that is saying approximately
the following: - The color is YELOW and if becomes blue, then it is contaminated and
dangerous, it should be mixed with twice more Methanol and disposed in open
pemissive area on porose ground to evaporate.
This Label with what you say match very well, it seems that the manufacturers
of the TopFuel also do not "appreciate" the blue colors and warn us to stay
away ...
Just a minute ago I tried Wikipedia but could not find there any thing about
this dangerous "blue" TopFuel and as you can read my previous post I wander
should I buy Nitro and keep it as pure one or beter mix it into somethings
more "innocent"; what do you think ?

Cheers, Nick
Old 04-09-2009, 04:34 PM
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hdpartman
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hi Nick, I will not give you a recipe for mixing fuel. There are many more items that are also mixed. I would try to contact KLOTZ Lubricants, there are alwys willing to answer that type of questions. Todays fuels are alot different than what we used years ago. Hay try AMA and the net for hobby fuel mixes. Air fuel will always be differant than car fuels due to the heating problems.
Old 04-09-2009, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Methanol is a lot less flamable than gasoline (petrol benzine ) but is the most risky component and worse burns with a invisible flame and like gasoline (petrol benzine ) can create vapour flame risks but a whole lot less vapour than gasoline

Nitro methane is is more like parrifin or Kerosne fuels and relucant to ignite and nearly no risk for vapour .Mixxed in Methanol there is no special risks.However mixxing nitromethane with gasoline (petrol Bezine ) can possibly create a shock sensitive fuel as in a explosive mix

Some types of Nitro has a special dye in it that will turn a color if its gone unstable but this process takes years.Adding 10% methanol will extend the life of the nitro for decades

Oil has no impact on methanol or nitro other than if its the wrong type it will fall out of suspension

The 10% nitro is a good mix for most all model use. The 20% oil is sounding a bit much but depends the type of oil and the engine . You need to say what make of oil and family eg castor or ESTER or PAQ oils

Balsaeater
Old 04-09-2009, 04:53 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Thanks Balsaeater,

I tried quite many things with various success and with as litle as possible Nitro so far.
Good results on OS.91 were with Castor 25%, 5% Nitro and rest Methanol; engine is
runs cool and the last flight I used Synthetic Oil of Graupner (AeroSave) of 20% and
Methanol only. Then I do not need to wash the engine even till the next summer,
But the problems come with the BGX-10 which is low compression and Nitro-hungry.
Castor oil is pretty cheap around here, about 3-4 times less cost than synthetic and
I like it because I can lean the engine a lot without so much wories about damage.
Then the Idea is to make 4-5 galons of almost "universal" for my case fuel for which
I tune the Tuned-Pipes & GlowPlugs & Propellers and concentrate on Flying, i.e. not
to mess endlessly with fuels. Such "universal" fuel seems to me to be that 10% Nitro,
20% Castor and 70% methanol. By the way, I tried mixing Aerosave Oil and Castor
but it appeared that they do "not like" each other and detonations occure even at
small portions of Nitro, for example Nitro of about 8% or more cause serious overheating
even with cold glow plugs like A5. So here I am with my "universal fuel" idea, meaning
to be as friendly as possible with one type of fuel to my "park" of various OS, as well
Webra and even MVVS. I am flying for fun and if I get 80% of the engine performance
I am pretty happy; the rest will try to get with tuned-pipe.
What do you advice ?

Regards,
Nick
Old 04-09-2009, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?


Me I dont mid several types of fuel to suit sevreral tpyes of engine .

Your universal fuel method seems to work with the ~20% castor if you can put up with the mess

My solution is to use the EDL synthehic only no castor and reduce oil down from that to 12% for small sports 2 stroke glow and ~8% nitro.This is nearly universal for me runs all the engines no problem but I stil do other mixxes
On the bigger 2 stroke 160 MVVS and Saito 180 the oil is less down to ~10% with 5% nitro
The lowwer oil allows the 5% nitro to equal the 20% castor and 10% nitro in power and no mess

However I dont know if the Aerosave is a Ester or a PAQ as the PAQ you need more of it to to do the job compared to esters .Rough rule seems to be europe is Ester and USA is PAQ oils but you need to check in case


Balsaeater
Old 04-09-2009, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Thanks ! To "deal" with the mess I use a pipe extention which goes even a bit out of the tail of
the plane an the only drops out of the venturi are not a big problem. I will think again what to
do.

Anyway your explanation that adding 10% methanol to pure Nitro prolonges the "stable"
life for many years relaxes me very much because in Europe the Nitromethan is imported
from USA and usually only once per year; thus it is good to buy couple galons at the time
so to have the whole year well furnished.

By the way, I tried and managed to damage quite quickly the conection rod of my Magnum.46
by using CoolPower fuel 5% nitro and 17.5% Oils although I always ran it far from lean, and
since then I do not buy ready fuel; home-made also comes lot cheaper too.
Old 04-10-2009, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Out of curiousity where are you sourcing your nitro TF (Top Fuel) from which has this 10% methanol added to it and how much it costs and shipping cost if you know them


I think in the USA they are reluctant to sell pure nitro any more in case the gooks might make bombs with it and so it is sold cut down with some methanol .Also there is a small but extrremly small risk that 99.99% nitro can become shock sensitive and the risk increases with age with age so they put the dye in it to show when that risk becomes more possible.The adding of 1% methanol reduces that risk to be shock sensitive to neglible.The adding of 10% methanol probably makes the use of the nitro methane for other uses much more difficult than drag racers where rules dictate max ~85% nitro .


Certianly if the prices of TF (Top Fuel) are good for the nitro when you factor in the off the shelf prices in the LHS methanol is typically €12 a gallon imp (4.55 liters or 1.2 gal USA) and nitro for me often costs ~ €140 per gallon imp and EDL costs ~ € €120 per gallon imp then buying the nitro TF (Top Fuel) that way with 10% methanol mixed in might work out cheaper for me .

What shipping rates are you working with as nitro and methanol are often HAZMAT rates ???

balasaeater



Old 04-10-2009, 01:52 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hi balsaeater,

Buying Nitro in Finland was possible in the RC shops some couple years ago for 21-25 Euro per Liter and
that is indeed above 30 USD per liter and thus too expensive. It was labeled "99%" pure Nitromethan and
it was bright yelow color and it was packed in canisters of 1/2 and 1 liter. Nowadays I do not see it in the
shops anymore.

Then in the RC clubs the mebers could buy it from a big barel at the price of about 10-12 Euro per liter
but I have not seen the Label of those barels since in fact I have not been a member of such club.

Based on what you said, and I was reading, I doubt if any of those cases it has been pure Nitro;
there might have been some ingredients especially after so many people have access to such
clubs and the things can get in wrong direction.

Also in certral Europe is sold Methanol+Nitromethan which is a bout 85% Methanol but I do not know
the prices. You can see the prices at www.lindinger.at.

Then we have around here Dragster-masters whose run-way I use some time for flying my RC and
the asfalt is so good, even the international Airports have nothing like that and in addition those guys
told me that they can sale me some of their Nitro for price of about 10-12 Euro per liter.

Then I do not need to import anything in this case; just need to go the Dragster guys and they
smile when see me wandering if I would need 2 or 3 liters of Nitro to mix for my "engines", as
you guess they put "-marks when I use the word "engine" of 35cc; those monster machines
are real engines indeed.

But what I saw on their Top Fuel labels made me thinking and asking the questions about how
safe is the Nitro; till now I was respecting it, but now after reading those "blue" color warnings
I do even less think of buying, not to talk of importing it, because of the hazard. Just need to
go to see the dragster racers and get there the Nitro and mix it immediately with Methanol
and Castor, which in fact both are also avaialble around the dragster guys in huge quantities
and low pricess, maybe the lowest one can ever get anywhere.

Just wander if this Top Fuel is good enough quality for our small RC engines or there is a
trouble which I do not know and will come to me at some pont ?

Also, how about the other oils which those Dragsters use, are they OK for RC engines ?

Cheers, Nick
Old 04-10-2009, 11:20 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

I don't follow drag racing at all but the fuel they use is limited to around 85-90% nitromethane with the remainder being methanol. Pure nitromethane (laboratory grade) is shock sensitive but the addition of a few percent of methanol or similar makes it quite stable although I've heard it's not wise to hit a puddle of it with a hammer . Given that TF nitro is cut with methanol then it's entirely suitable for use when mixing your own fuels. The oils used in drag racing cars would almost certainly not be suitable for model engines. If in doubt, stick with castor. My own fuels are are just 80/20 castor because I've never found any need for nitro and castor (for me) is much cheaper than any synthetic oil.

Old 04-11-2009, 02:45 AM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hi Downunder,

I also tied living my life without Nitro, but I could not really find an easier way to deal with such
nitro-hungry engines like OS BGX-10; after many posting we went trough in RCU it seems the Nitro
to be the best way for such big chunk of metal, while tuned pipe is too big&heavy and modifying the
engine is not a break trough. It looks to me the simplest ways for non-professionals are just two:
1. Nitro 10-12 %
2. Lighten the piston by cutting its skirt where possile.
I really wander what did you invent to stay out of Nitro ? - that would be also very
smart for me because the nitro "eats" the life of the airplane very badly.
Please advice, thanks
Nick
Old 04-11-2009, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Nick, the simplest blend you could make would be
1 liter of the 'top fuel'
2 liters oil
7 liters methanol
That will give you slightly less than 10% nitromethane by volume but is is simple and repeatable.
Old 04-11-2009, 09:21 AM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Nick
Whatever you do, don't try cutting into the piston or you'll ruin it. There's no secret involved with using zero nitro, usually I just fill and fly with standard engines. There are benefits if you can raise the compression enough but it's not necessary. One thing you can try is to add about 3% acetone to the fuel, if there's no nitro in it, which may give a better idle.
Old 04-11-2009, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Thanks, I will try that soon, the temperatures here are finally above the freezing ...

By the way what is the time interval in Australia when you can fly with comfort of the weather ?

Here in Finland that is usually when the max temperature is above 10 deg C durng the day
and that is mid-April till mid-October in general. That is having huge effect as you know on
the Castor Oil, simply if the max temperature is below 10 degC one cannot turn the engine
with 20% Castor oil in the fuel ... That is also one reason many guys run Synthetic 16%
Nitro 16% and then they can fly almost anytime of the year here.
Old 04-11-2009, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Hi Carrellh,

Thanks for the calculations; it seems that way one
gets 9% Nitro, 71% Methanol, 20% Castor.

By the way in which ORDER one should mix that fuel ?
1. First mix TopFuel with methanol and then add the Castor,
or
2. First mix the Castor with Methanol and then add the TopFuel.

Which one is the right because I remeber that Nitro does not like
mixing with Castor, isn't it ?

Thanks, Nick
Old 04-11-2009, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

ORIGINAL: NikolayTT
the temperatures here are finally above the freezing ...

By the way what is the time interval in Australia when you can fly with comfort of the weather ?
Generally it's usually between January and December unless there's too much wind or it's raining . An exceptionally cold day here could be 10C but you won't find too many out flying on a day like that. Actually I had to put an engine in the freezer just now (got it down to 6C) to find out how it felt with 25% castor. It certainly was a bit more draggy but still flicked over fairly well so I can understand the problem.

As for the order of mixing your fuel, castor won't blend with nitro above about 50-60% nitro so first add the castor to the methanol and give it a good shake until it's completely mixed then add the nitro and shake again.
Old 04-12-2009, 04:10 AM
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Default RE: TopFuel ? 90% Nitro Fuel ? Anybody uses that ?

Great !! - But I guess that you have kept the engine a bit too short time in the freezer...
maybe you should leave it there for a day or two and try again. At the airfield at 5degC
I spray pure methanol in the engine, start rotating with the starter and then open the
needle ... In fact the misery of trying here to fly between October-to-April is further
worsen by many other factors: - Fingers are giving "surpring" and sometimes fatal
addtional moves so people use special extended "box-gloves" where also the transmitter
is placed inside, the starter battery should be big enough so it still have capacity at lower
temperature and the battery on board should be for sure very good quality NiCd; I use
NiMH of 8 cells and then reduce it down to 6V by 7806 regulator and frankly ... I am
pretty alone at the airfields that time, neither RC flyers nor friends coming ... feels
like in a movie-theater after the people have gone home ...

But beside complains about the 6 months Winter in Finland one should say that the Summer
in Finland is real-WONDER: June, July, someime August, and it is in fact frequently quite
good in September, and especially AMAZING are the long Days, with bright sun-light from
even 4am till 11pm, and temperatures newer above 30degC/day and 15degC/night,
especially in July, simply making no sense to go home .... just sleep near run-way for
couple hours and then go flying again ...

Thus seems cheaper to "hold my horses" during the winter and run as you do 20% Castor
and 80% Methanol and find ways to incrase the combustion so to fly only the summer,
but of course as you might agree, in this kind of hoby "nothings is enough..."
and some guys in fact have managed to have 6 moths job in Finland and
also 6 months job in Australia or New Zealand so to try flying 12 months per
year; I know at lest one of them who is taking gliders in the sky and enjoy the
Christmas in summer clothes; that sounds more than strange for me ... but I
believe it is also very nice ... (and funny Santa ... in short panties ... is it so ???).

What the acetone does so to make the low-RPM stable ? I heard it attacks the
Aluminum even in room temperature, but maybe less than the Nitromethan
which attacs all methals, is it so ??

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