J_D

hey Earth surfer, u had any experiences with the FG/zenoah milled crankcase?

radio_controlled_mad

i would need the full engine,i dont have any spares - the ESP head cut 30.5cc cylinder, with a 1mm crank sounds good but not sure having the carb lower down will effect how it fits in a mcd - i think the crank case of any engine needs to be slightly milled to fit over the 4x4 system,and i cant find any pics with the shell removed to see if haveing the carb lower down makes a dif

http://www.mcdracing.com/monster_truck.htm

JRexA

On most On-Road cars (Fg and others) The engine is rotated, so that the exhaust point down, and the carb sticks up in the air.
that way the carb on a Reed Case Zenoah doesn't get in the way of the Differential, like it will do on off-road cars with a standing engine.



I don't know if the Reed Case carb position is compatible with MCD's, but I guess it can be a problem.

Oneill Brothers Racing

To start off Doug I do not think that you are reading the dyno sheet correctly. The graph reads from right to left. Once the motor has reached its peak horsepower the dyno applies a break. That is not the motor "falling on it's face" that is the break being applied.

Our 4.5hp reading was a black Zenoah can becuase that is what comes on the motor.

After speaking with Bill at Trik-Dyno I was told that Trevor Simpson also has a Trik-Dyno (same model as us TRIK-250A) so the results will not be any different. If you do not believe the numbers you can order a motor and pipe and send it to him.
Horsepower = Torque x RPM / 5252
6.06 = 2.99 x 10,637 / 5252



Info on our dyno can be found at [link=http://www.trik-dyno.com/prod01.htm]http://www.trik-dyno.com/prod01.htm[/link]

Doug we did not post this thread and respectfully understand your position as a motor builder. Since you jumped into this thread I think it should be your responsibility to prove us wrong if you have a problem with our numbers. This is no disrespect to you in any way.

badz

My Feedback: (1)

Sean, not a dig at you or your store. I've had great dealings with your store in the past and always got top notch products and support.

Trevor Simpson along with Earth Surfer Product's both do excellent jobs on these engines.

The stock Zenoah can however doesn't come with a HPI Baja. It's not a Zenoah engine to begin with it's a CY. It comes with that small chamber like the Firehammer. The stock Zenoah Pipe is refered to as a "Heli" Pipe simply because it's larger and hollow to produce more RPM needed with a Heli. The only large scale gaser with this pipe included is the Traxxas MB, which also comes with a Zenoah 23cc.
Dyno's are fine but not 100% accurate. Sure the brake simulates some load depends upon it's settings but it still don't make the end results 100% correct. A engine that turns 6HP in California may only turn 3HP in Colorado. There is massive things that can cause variations on Dyno's that most people don't understand. Air Temps, Sea Level Reading or Altitude test was run at, Fuel Used, Mix Used, Timing Used, Pipe Used, Carb Settings, Carb Used. We all know how easy it is to increase power so slighty with little changes unseen on a Dyno printout. Dyno's are fine for a general thing but never 100% accurate. And perhaps adding the statement that "Dyno's are used for OUR testing Purposes ONLY and actual HP ratings can and will vary in your Area." Would solve alot of the arguements.

Anyhow thank's for your support in the hobby I appreciate you guy's being here and offering the support you offer to us.

Oneill Brothers Racing

Badz,
Thank you for your post. We are in no way trying to compare our work to Trevor Simpson or Earth Surfer. We are trying to provide a cheaper alternative for the guys looking to get a modified motor.

cpbpilot

i am fairly new to the R/C worlds and how the nitro engines work i have a evoltion .46nt engine. My problom is that when I start the engine, it starts backwards. I know that i am turning it the right way and in the past if it started backwards all i had to do is turn the engine backwards like i was starting it backwards and it would start correctly. It was in storage for about two months and now all it does is start backwards no matter which way i turn the prop what could i do to stop that.


P.S it is an airplane engine on a model airboat

Acs_guitars

My Feedback: (3)

Very well put!! I agree 100%....... No 2 dynos will turn out the exact same numbers, infact the same engine on the same dyno will pull different numbers in different locations. So many things affect the power output of an engine, you can get a good idea of power level on a scale of 1 to 10, but the actual numbers on a dyno mean little, especially on these small engines where the environment makes a huge difference in power.

badz

My Feedback: (1)

Glow engines start and run counter clockwise. It's not uncommon if your flipping the prop to start it for it to backfire and start up backwards. One way you can stop that is keep the glow plug charger off until engines on top dead center, hook it up and give it a flip, should fire off and run in the proper direction.


Sean...awesome...lower prices are ALWAYS great.

B@Trik

I'm adding my 2 cents on the Oneill Engine performance, as the manufacturer of the TRIK-250A Dynamometer to hopefully clear up some misconceptions. First of all the curve is read from right to left, unlike an inertia dyno where the engine accelerates a mass, the TRIK-250A uses a resistive load to determine peak torque to the engine. This is done by bringing the engine to full throttle under a light load. When the engine reaches a preset RPM (operator setable in software) the engine will be automatically loaded to a load profile setup by the user in the software. This provides for the consistant application of the resistive force and the RPM which it begins. The engine torque is transmitted to the measurement transducer via the patented cradle assembly that transmits all of the torque to the transducer. Calibration of the system is done using a torque arm with certified weight positioned at 1 & 2 feet from the centerline. A 3 point calibration is done (zero, span and midpoint) then lineraized in the software caibration table. The software has a built in SAE Correction function that provides "corrected" normalized results for the engine and yes, this will provide the same data regardless of where the engine is tested, that's the whole point of the SAE correction [link=http://www.dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?article_id=18]Dyno Performance[/link]. I have customers in Ohio and Maryland that have compared engines on their TRIK-250A's and obtained repeatable data within the accuracy of the dynamometer. For more info on the TRIK-250A please visit our WEB Site [link=http://trik-dyno.com]TRIK-DYNO, LLC[/link]

Acs_guitars

My Feedback: (3)

So the "SAE Correction" will make up for a change of power due to air temps, humidity, and altitude? Something I did not know.

Timmahh

JD, ESP works on pretty much Z motors for the most part. go to ddm and check out all the esp modded engines and kits they sell.
Timmahh

B@Trik

Yes, that's not to say that the engine running at 5000 ft altitude is going to put our the same HP (Torque) as it does at sea level. What it says is that if you take the raw data from each location, record the air temp, barometric pressure, humidity and altitude during the engine pull you can then correct it to the SAE standard conditions, the corrected results will be the same with the accuracy of the instrument.

Earth Surfer

Thanks B@Trik--you answered my question I just had in my mind about how the dyno finds peak power before the brake is applied. If there is some constant resistance, can that dyno be used like a inertia dyno without using the disk brake? Like an inertia dyno, acceleration/time should give an excellent representation of what the engine produces, if all inputs are accurate. It is hard to defy the simple laws of phiscs, and that is why I like inertia dynos. Just like computers, "garbage in, garbage out" also applys to dynos.

I see you offer several different dyno's. You offer a disk brake dyno, and I see you offer a water resistance dyno. I think I know the reasons why. Can you tell us the benifits of the water resistant dyno over the disk brake dyno. My guess is the water dyno is more accurate and even more likely, has better repeatability. I am not familiar with your designs, so I rely on your answers to be fully disclosed.

I did not see prices on your web site. What is the retail price of both of those dynos right now? I would also like to know how easy it is to manipulate the accuracy of your dynos. I'm not hinting that O-Bros did that,-- but it is a valid concern of mine.


Sorry about the peak at the peak O-Bros, a different print out scale can make a curve look like that also.

With great porting, and a pipe that actually matches the porting (probably a custom pipe), I can see 6hp out of a piston port Zen engine (with higher RPM). But to the best of my knowledge, none of the top engine gurus of Zen RC engines have hit that mark (but there are claims--espically in the boating world and other pipe builders like Samba--if I remember correctly). If anybody was able to do it right now, it would probably be Eric Hill from Flowsystems, because he knows how to develope a pipe to fit port specs, and he does develope very good pipes. I don't think you are working with a guy as knowledgable as Eric Hill.

But, O-Bros-- I do highly doubt 4.5hp out of the casting limitations of the Zen cylinder with any can. I don't think it is possible to double the power output (naturally aspriated) of a Zen engine when using a can. That would mean that your engines would be over 5hp with no exhaust at all and would beat our race and championship winning G260 reed case engines with any pipe on it. Since my G260 reed case engine have had no problem out powering any piston port on the ISA race circut, I have a really hard time swallowing 4.5 hp out of a G260 with a can. I am not ruling out the possibility that I may be wrong, because freaky things can happen with the amount of variables that make a engine run, but I will shave my head if those numbers are accurate.

JRexA

A standard untuned Zenoah G230RC pre 04 Engine with a FirstOne Tuning FOD01 4.747 Hp at 13000rpm, measured by Ian Oddie on his own Dyno.

You can see those results and several others here: http://www.rctek.com/dyno/zenoah_g230rc_dyno_test.html



Attached is also a compilation of all the pipes in the above mentioned test:

J_D

nice power, especially out of a 23cc

Earth Surfer

I think I am going to shoot myself in the head JD (figure of speech). Do you believe those are also accurate numbers, after all that has been said?
I am not saying it can't possibly be true because I have never heard of that pipe.- Knowing most pipes we use for peds (and I dynoed 7 of them with the highest being 4.2hp on a stock G260--I also checked a stock engine with no exhaust and no filter matching Zens numbers within .02hp--so I think I am fairly accurate with my numbers) were not designed specifically for the Zen RC engines--may be this pipe oddified tested actually is designed for the RC porting. Example--There is a pipe for scooters (the one that hit 4.2hp) that has been hard to beat ever since the RC engine came out, made by a company called ADA. It is their S1 pipe, and we use them in our racing today. It is the winningist pipe in RC engine scooter racing. That pipe was orginally sold for a small, low powered utility engine--Zens 23cc LH engine, that is used in lawn equiptment. The LH engine was the popular engine for scooters, before the RC engine came out. One of the best pipes we use on RC engines was made before the RC engine was available (so of course--I think there is room for improvement). Those three decimal places posted above sure do make it look accurate, don't they? (thats an old stats trick by the way--the more accurate the number, the more we tend to believe it--no matter what the number represents). But is it really accurate? (who knows---I don't).

Did Ian Oddie also state that those were the numbers he got on HIS dyno, at HIS location? May be even on a day with high barametric pressure and low humidity (better air quality)? I am not questioning oddified numbers as much as I question the accuracy of any dyno. May be that is a well designed pipe tuned to the stock porting of a G230/260. --Where can I see one or get one? I want to try it for our racing efforts (because I am sure the S1 we use can be beat).

If I ever get my dyno finished (I keep saying that, and it is killing me inside--I need 9 days in a week), may be I will post numbers, and may be I won't. If I do, I would be willing to bet that my numbers will be lower than some other companies claims. But we are getting holeshots and winning the races with those underpowered engines?. A claim, is just a claim. If you can't check it out for yourself (do you have an acurate dyno at home?), you might believe any claim---and spend your hard earned money because of a claim.

I am sorry guys. I have a problem with some claims that I have to compete against. whenever I see a claim by a company that is making or selling the goods (Does Ian Oddie exclusively sell or make that pipe?--I don't know much about the company--If not--I definatly want to try that pipe)---espically a claim that CAN NOT be easily checked out by the consumer,---instead of saying "Wow, those are impressive numbers!"--ya have to wonder, Is it true? (again--we don't know) ------- But--fortunatly---we do have a way to get more evidence. One decient indicator we have as a consumer, is racing. How well are those claims doing on the track--or do they even race at all? (I know Oddified does from the RC mags--Myself, I am a babe in the raido controlled world, and I am not racing raido controlled stuff yet). I have discovered, at least for me, if you build good engines, and they get known, good racers will come looking for you and you will be racing. Could race results actually be a better indicator for the consumer, than a dyno graph claim from any particular company? You bet it can, and probably is. We (as an industry) use dynos to help our racing efforts, which in turn builds REAL confidence in the consumer to buy our products. This next line is going to be blunt--so I apologize if anybody is offended---but it's true, so I will say it. I have been racing the ISA races for two years now with good to great success in every class we have entered and every racer that is full time (novice, expert, quad and pro). The only engine builders in scooter racing that concern me are Trevor Simpson, Eric Hill, and Howard Combee. Trevor, at the moment, is my main competition (he's a sharp dude--and has a huge track record). I know O-bros have been in the industry longer than I have been. But I don't see them on the track (to the best of my knowlege). That brings up the question, did they buy the dyno for racing, or did they buy the dyno for sales? There is nothing wrong with using it for sales, if the numbers are accurate (which again, we will probably never know from any dyno), but some track results to back it up would be nice for the consumer to see. Thats why companies race. We race to show the consumer that we do what we say we can do. I will believe a track record way before I will believe a dyno graph. There is only one dyno graph I have seen with RC engines that "I think" I totally believe, and they are not mine. That is the graph that Zenoah makes public for their engines. Still, with that---I really don't know for sure how accurate that is, and nobody else that I know of does either. Anybody can produce numbers, and out of all the numbers possible, only one number is actually accurate. That being true, one can easily assume, that no dyno is acutally totally accurate (and some are waaaayyy off). Buyer beware of company dyno claims (any company), it's in your best interest because it's your paycheck your spending on a company made claim.

JRexA

Ian Oddie (http://www.oddified.com) does not sell nor make any tuned pipes.

He do make Tuned Engines.

The test was made together with Alro Racing, on behalf of other 1/5 Racers and is published on http://www.rctek.com
The test was made to give a relative comparison of 11 different tuned Pipes for 1/5 Onroad Racing.
All pipes are well known on the European Market, and most of them are well known in 1/5 onroad racing, also away from Europe.
As 23cc was the limit for onroad when the test was made, I guess that all pipes are specifically engineered for 23cc engines.

From what I know, Alro Racing doesn't make or sell pipes pipes.

J_D

Ian oddie is a smart man, have you seen his magnetic diff, its a work of art.

If he says thats the power he got, i believe him.

SIM2U

Now thats cool...links please....

B@Trik

Earth Surfer.

I'll need some time to address all of your questions, and I will. To get you started the dyno specifications and prices are available as a download PDF files on our web site. Just click on the model number within "Open Viewable TRIK-250A product data sheet and pricing (Requires Acorbat Reader)" on ay of the product pages.

It is relatively simple to change the calibration, however, it can't be done by accident. I normally check with our customers after they have received their units to confirm that the calibration file that I send with the unit has loaded properly and I can assure you that was done with Oneill Bros.

I'm not an engine guy so I can't really respond to any questions/comments about what's possible / normal / or abnormal for the engines.

JRexA

As for the accuracy of the numbers pubished on http://www.rctek.com/dyno/zenoah_g230rc_dyno_test.html My guess is as good(or bad) as anyone else here.
I do believe that the numbers are as accurate as the ones doing the test was able to make them.

But as an indication of the difference in the 11 tested pipes I find it very valuable.
I do miss a baseline test of the tested engine, using a std. well known muffler, or without any muffler/pipe.


For info on Oddified products: http://www.oddified.com
btw. he just became UK 1/5 Champ for 10'th time in a row.
If memory serves me right, then anyone in top 10 used one or more Oddified products.

SIM2U

Hey J_D, where did you get the front disc breaks from and how can I get those puppies. Do have some links...?

If you made them, do you have links to the discs themselves and related parts...thanks BTW, I checked out your gallery and you have some very cool machines in there, nice.

SIM2U

VERY nice machines you have...VERY nice. Could you PM me some parts info/list if you have time, thanks.

J_D

oh, those are old, i should put up new pics, those pics are of the front cable brakes look on rcnuthobbies, ect ect for them., i have front and rear magura hydrualic brakes now