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toe in toe/angles of wheels

Old 06-09-2009, 04:10 PM
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tazmaniaboats
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Default toe in toe/angles of wheels

i,m interested to find the starting angles of toeout /in toe out on turns.of both front and rear wheels.alsotips to have a stable ride.
Old 06-09-2009, 07:43 PM
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ZX9RBART
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

Depends on whether its for on or off road. For offroad I like toe in on the front and rear, for onroad i like no toe in or out on the front (to reduce oversteer) and a few degrees in on the rear for stability. The more you toe either end in the more traction you will have on that end of the car, too much on the front for onroad will make it spin out fairly easy which is why I keep it pretty neutral.
Old 06-10-2009, 03:56 PM
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tazmaniaboats
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

thankyou for the reply zx .your answer makes very sense when you consider the question.
Old 06-10-2009, 04:12 PM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

In simple terms, front toe-out increases turn-in traction at the expense of stability, front toe-in increases straight line stability at the expense of cornering ability. Toe in at the rear just increases straight line stability at the expense of tire wear. Rear toe out is just a total no-no. These rules apply to on and off road, and I would never run toe in at the front or toe out at the back. Just run more of each for off road than you would for on-road.
Old 06-13-2009, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

I came across this a while ago when I was seeking info on the same topic:


Toe is the angle (inwards or outwards) that the tires point when the wheel is straight ahead. Toe-in means the front of the tires point inward, and toe-out means they point outward. Zero toe means the tires are parallel to each other. The biggest effect toe has on the handling of the car is on stability. When a car hits a bump or enters a corner, forces on the tires act to steer the car off to one side, making the car unstable and difficult to control. Toe-in counteracts this, improving stability. Toe-in also causes understeer during initial corner entry. Interestingly, toe on the rear wheels has the same effect on handling as toe on the front. Toe on the rear wheels is useful for tuning the handling of the car as it is exiting corners.

Front Toe "IN"
Slower steering response
More straight-line stability
Too much will casuse greater wear at the outboard edges of the tires

Front Zero Toe
Medium steering response
Minimum power loss
Minimum tire wear

Front Toe "OUT"
Quicker steering response
Less straight-line stability
Too much will cause greater wear at the inboard edges of the tires

Less Rear Toe "IN"
Less straight-line stability
Less traction out of the corner
More steering
Higher top speed

Intermediate Rear Toe "IN"
Intermediate straight-line stability
Intermediate traction out of the corner
Intermediate steering
Intermediate top speed

More Rear Toe "IN"
More straight-line stability
More traction out of the corner
Less steering
Less top speed

****

Caster

Caster is the angle to which the steering pivot axis is tilted forward or rearward from vertical, as viewed from the side. If the pivot axis is tilted backward (that is, the top pivot is positioned farther rearward than the bottom pivot), then the caster is positive; if it's vertical to the lower pivot point then the caster is zero.

Less Castor (vertical = 0 castor)
More OFF POWER steering into the corner
Less steering out of the corner
Less straight-line stability

More Caster (laid back more)
Less steering into the corner
More ON POWER steering out of the corner
More straight-line stability

Benifiets of castor: (more positive castor/laid back more)

Maximizes tire contact pacth during roll, braking, and acceleration
Improves turn-in response
Increase directional stability
Improved steering "feel" and self-center
Increases dynamic negative camber during turn in

Castor Vs Camber:

Camber doesn’t improve turn-in, positive caster does.
Camber is not good for tire wear.
Camber doesn’t improve directional stability.
Camber adversely effects braking and acceleration.

****

Shock Absorbers
-
The purpose of the shock absorbers is to dampen the oscillation of the springs. The dampers not only dampen spring oscillations, but they also affect handling during transient conditions (such as the entry and exit of turns), but not steady-state conditions.

More Dampening
Slower shock action = could be unstable on bumpy tracks
Slower chassis weight transfer
Generally less traction

Less Dampening
Faster shock action = less chance of tire leaving the ground on bumpy tracks
Faster chassis weight transfer
Generally more traction

****

Springs
-
The purpose of the springs is to control wheel movement and keep the tire in contact with the road over bumps and irregularities. Stiffening the springs front and rear will reduce body roll and make handling more responsive, but cause a loss of traction over bumpy surfaces. Likewise, softening all of the springs will give more grip on bumpy tracks, but increase roll and reduce responsiveness. You can also use the springs to affect the car balance. You can reduce oversteer by stiffening the front springs or softening the rear. Likewise, you can reduce understeer by softening the front springs or stiffening the rear. However, be advised that changing just one end also affects fore/aft weight transfer. By softening the front springs, you'll also get more dive under braking. Softening the rear will give you more rear weight transfer under acceleration, which can give you more traction on the rear wheels in straight-line acceleration. Read and understand about "anti-roll bars" before you come to the conclusion that you need to change your springs, springs should be one of the last, if not the last thing you should change to effect how the car handles other than during a bump condition.

Using Softer Front Springs
More steering
Slower steering response
Used on bumpy tracks
More 'diving' under braking
Used more for tight technical tracks

Using Harder Front Springs
Less steering
Faster steering response
Used on flat tracks
Minimum 'diving' under braking
Used more for large fast tracks

Using Softer Rear Springs
More traction out of the corner
Slower steering response
Used on bumpy tracks
More front lift under acceleration
Used more for tight technical tracks

Using Harder Rear Springs
Less traction out of the corner
Faster steering response
Used on flat tracks
Minimum front lift under acceleration
Used more for large fast tracks

****

Downforce
-
Downforce is the aerodynamic force pressing the car down on the track and improves cornering grip. This downforce is dependent on forward speed, and increases as you go faster. Increasing the downforce all around increases cornering speed, but also increases drag, which gives you slower straightaway speed, and you may also need to increase ride height and/or spring stiffness to prevent bottoming. Likewise, decreasing downforce gives you lower cornering speeds but higher straightaway speeds, and allows you to run softer springs and/or a lower ride height. Also, you can also use downforce to fine-tune balance at high speeds. To reduce understeer, increase front downforce or reduce rear. To reduce oversteer, decrease front downforce or increase rear. Keep in mind that these adjustments are dependent on forward speeds and has less effect as speeds drop, so you can use this to give the car different handling characteristics for different speed ranges.


****

Differential Settings
-
Differential's are used to allow the wheels on the same end of the car to rotate at different speeds during cornering.
If diff's are set to tight or are "locked" the tires will fight each other as the car is turning.

Front Diff Looser than Rear Diff
Steering response increases
If rear diff is to tight, the car will understeer into the corner, and will cause loss rear end sliding out of the corner.
Could cause oversteer while entering the corner (depending on other settings)

Rear Diff Looser than Front Diff
Steering response decreases, stability in turns in increased
Could cause understeer or "push" while entering the corner (depending on other settings)

****

Front Anti-roll Bar
-
The front anti-roll bar affects the amount the car’s front end rolls in a turn. As a car enters a turn, centrifugal cornering forces cause car roll and weight-transfer to the side of the car on the outside of the turn. A very stiff front anti-roll bar increases the load on the outside front tire, and decreases the load on the inside front tire (it can help to note that a stiff bar will tend to raise the inside front tire, thereby lowering that tire’s load). At the same time, this stiff front anti-roll bar increases the load on the inside rear tire, and decreases load on the outside rear tire. In this situation, the balance of side traction between front and rear ends shifts to the rear, and you get a car with a lower amount of steering, but more steering responsiveness.

Don’t get confused between amount of steering and steering responsiveness; a car with a soft front anti-roll bar can have a high amount of steering, but it takes more time for the chassis to roll and transfer weight with this soft anti-roll bar and this creates slow steering responsiveness. A stiff front anti-roll bar will create very quick car weight transfer and thus very fast steering responsiveness, but with a lower amount of steering. In other words, amount of steering refers to how much steering ability the car has; steering responsiveness refers to the speed or quickness of the car’s steering ability.


Softer Anti-roll bar setting
More steering into corner
More steering in the corner
Slower steering response

Harder Anti-roll bar setting
Less steering into corner
Less steering in the corner
Faster steering response

****

Rear Anti-roll Bar

The rear anti-roll bar affects the amount the car’s rear end rolls in a turn. As a car enters a turn, centrifugal cornering forces cause car roll and weight transfer to the side of the car on the outside of the turn. A stiff rear anti-roll bar increases the load on the outside rear tire, and decreases the load on the inside rear tire (it can help to note that a stiff bar will tend to raise the inside rear tire, thereby lowering that tire’s load). At the same time, this stiff rear anti-roll bar increases the load on the inside front tire, and decreases the load on the outside front tire. In this situation, the balance of side traction between front and rear ends shifts to the front, and you get a car with less rear traction, but more steering responsiveness (refer to the Front Anti-Roll bar page for more explanation on steering responsiveness). The opposite happens with a soft rear anti-roll bar: relative to the stiff setting, there is now less load on the outside rear tire and more load on the inside rear tire. The front inside tire also has less load, and the outside front gets more load. Now, the balance of side traction shifts to the rear, creating more rear side traction in the corner, but less steering responsiveness.


Softer Anti-roll bar setting More side traction in the corner
More traction out of the corner
Slower steering response

Harder Anti-roll bar setting Less side traction in the corner
Less traction out of the corner
Faster steering response

****

Tires
-
The tires are perhaps the most important part of the car. You can gain the biggest improvements by installing tires with more grip. Tires are available in many different compounds: hard - soft. Soft tires have more grip than hard tires, but wear out faster. You are also able to mix types front and back. You can reduce oversteer by using hard tires in front and soft tires in back. This gives the rear tires more grip than the fronts, making them less likely to slide out. Likewise, you can reduce understeer by putting soft tires up front and hard tires in back. If you car feel's like it is "loose" or "unstable" you may actually want to try a harder compound, by using a harder compound the tire will have less bounce, less side flex, and will typically offer a much more stable foundation.

Tires are to small:
Low forward traction
Low top speed
Car becomes twitchy

Tires are to big:
Very slow steering response
High chance of traction rolling
Tire distortion in turns
Less stable

Softer Front Tires:
More Steering
More wear
Less stable

Harder Front Tires:
Less steering
Less wear
More stable

Softer Rear Tires:
More rear traction
Less steering
More bounce on bumpy tracks
Less stable

Harder rear tires:
Less rear traction
More steering
Less bounce on bumpy tracks
More stable

****

Camber

( PLEASE READ ABOUT CASTOR BEFORE YOU ADJUST YOUR CAMBER )

Camber is the angle the tires make with the road and is measured in degrees. Tire grip varies with the camber angle, and ideally is maximum when the angle is zero. However, the maximum grip is found with a small amount of negative camber because of tire sidewall deflection (when the top of the tire is tilted inward it is called negative camber. Also, as the body rolls in a turn, the suspension movements themselves causes some adverse camber change. These combined effects mean that for maximum cornering power you need to have some amount of negative camber. However, too much camber will cause you to lose grip because the outside edge of the tire is being lifted off of the pavement, reducing the contact patch. So to summarize, as the camber angle increases from zero, cornering grip improves to a point, then falls off.

-2 deg. ~ -1 deg.
Front Camber
Quicker steering response
More overall side traction
Less chance of traction rolling

-1 deg. ~ 0 deg.
Front Camber
Less quick steering response
Less overall side traction
More chance of traction rolling

-2 deg. ~ -1 deg.
Rear Camber More overall side traction
More traction under braking
Less chance of traction rolling

-1 deg. ~ 0 deg.
Rear Camber Less overall side traction
Less traction under breaking
More chance of traction rolling


E D I T

I somehow missed the last bit of that page when I copied it.
Here it is.



Gear Ratios
-
General:
Gear ratio affects the balance between a car’s acceleration and top speed. A small clutch gear with a large spur gear produces a high gear ratio (the figure is a high number, the gear is called "short") gear ratio, giving faster acceleration but lower top speed. A large clutch gear with a small spur gear produces a low gear ratio (the figure is a low number, the gear is called "long" / "tall"), giving slower acceleration but higher top speed.

Measurement:
Gear ratio is measured by simply dividing the spur gear (two speed) teeth number by the pinion gear (clutch) teeth.

Adjustment:
You can change the clutch and two-speed gears independently or together to get different gear ratios. This applies to both first and second gear. Remove a gear and replace it with one of a different tooth number. YOU MUST add the teeth number up between both first and second gears, they must equal the same. For exaple if first gear spur is 47 teeth and first gear pinion is 17, add 47+17=64. Then add your second gear spur and pinion, 20+44=64. This will ensure that you will have the same mesh on both gear's as long as you have mounted your engine straight.

Lower gear ratio (longer gear)
lower acceleration,
higher top speed

Higher gear ratio (shorter gear)
higher acceleration,
lower top speed

****

Ride Height
-
A lower ride height lowers the center of gravity, which reduces weight transfer during cornering, acceleration, and braking. The reduced weight transfer improves cornering. A lower ride height also lowers drag at high speed because you are presenting a smaller frontal profile to the airstream. Also, by lowering the front end and raising the rear, you can improve high speed stability and increase downforce by preventing high-pressure air from building up underneath the nose of the car. If the car is too low, it can bottom out, though this can be eliminated by stiffening the springs(which could cause problems elsewhere).









Old 06-14-2009, 04:31 PM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

Lots of useful info here!This thread should have been made sticky
Old 06-14-2009, 04:37 PM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

Or at least just that one post. Very good description.

In line with toe anles, especially with front toe out for enteing into turns, another adjustment that is equivalent for toe out while in a turn is Ackerman. If you have the right ackerman, in some cases, you can totally dispense with front toe out and simply go neutral toe because the ackerman would do what the toe out does while in the turn.
Old 06-15-2009, 02:45 AM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

Why sticky information that's all over the net? Stickies are very rare on RCU, as you all must have noticed. Besides, these long technical descriptions often simply add confusion. Toe is really simple, more toe out in the front for quicker turn in, and more toe in at the rear for more straightline stability. No other words are needed.
Old 06-15-2009, 04:26 AM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

Why sticky information that's all over the net?
While that's true, I suppose a section of RCU could be dedicated to info like the one in my post perhaps?
I'm sure a lot of people, like myself, who are new to this game and come to a site like this one would benefit from it.










Old 06-15-2009, 04:40 AM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels


ORIGINAL: Dirty_Vinylpusher

Why sticky information that's all over the net?
While that's true, I suppose a section of RCU could be dedicated to info like the one in my post perhaps?
I'm sure a lot of people, like myself, who are new to this game and come to a site like this one would benefit from it.










Spot on, things like this would be a hell of a lot of help to the new guys.
Seems they do things strangely around here, no links etc

Old 06-15-2009, 04:45 AM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

Is it strange? If you have an advertiser paying dollars for their privileges, that others can advertise for free? That's the only goal of the 'no links' policy. If you mean to other RC forums, well, that's just management trying to protect its membership. Unfortunately, in the past, many attempts have been made to literally 'steal' our members. If you made a new RC forum and wanted traffic, wouldn't you wish you could post on RCU, a site with a million members, and try to steal a few? Again, hits equal advertising money, and RCU won't line anyone else's pocket. It is a business for profit after all.

All RC people who are genuinely interested in car setup, should just favorite this page... http://users.telenet.be/elvo/
Old 06-15-2009, 05:20 AM
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Default RE: toe in toe/angles of wheels

That's a good page.

Bookmarked.







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