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Scale olde non-lead sled

Old 06-12-2004, 07:53 PM
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Rick K
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Default Scale olde non-lead sled

Hi guys, I'd like to do a scale ship, something 'Golden ageish' but with a light wing loading with a span of around 3M. All the kits/plans Ive seen seem to come in at around 15-20oz/sq.ft. Is there anything out there lighter? I fly thermal and would prefer something that could be launched by 'Hi-start' or winch . . . any sugestions?
Rick K
Old 06-12-2004, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

How about sort of scale and Old Timer'ish?.....

If you like this I can send you a better scan. It's intended for 100 inch but it wouldn't take much to do it to 120.
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Old 06-12-2004, 11:58 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Hey Bruce, that is one neat looking plane. I really like the wing platform, looks like a swallow's or maybe a gull's. I could live with the 100' span but how hard is it to build that wing, do you need to make a bunch of jigs/fixtures? Is it based on a real sailplane or is it inspired by the era like my Fred Reese 'Golden-Olde' bipe? How about the wing loading? <10oz sq/ft?
How can I get those plans from you, I only have a letter size printer and am not exactly a computer expert . . . would I down-load a file from you and save it to flopy then take it to a copy place to print it out? I'm clueless on how to do it. What it'd cost me for you to mail a copy from Canada? Not cheap I'd guess.
Rick K
Old 06-13-2004, 04:53 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Ah, now there's the rub, I've only got the original magazine size print. It's a free flight design inspired by the gull winged full size stuff of the day. Connversion to RC would require some planning, updating and adapting. PM me and let me know your regular email adress and I'll send along a higher res GIF file for you to study along with scans of the whole article.

It's odd but you're right about all the scale designs being large, cumbersome and heavy. There were so many very beutiful early prewar gull wing designs that would be great done in a light air summer's evening style much like the Gentle Lady is. I'm surprised that there's never really been any intrest in that style of glider flying. Perhaps it's time....
Old 06-14-2004, 04:52 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Send me a jpeg at 300 lines per inch and I can do a plan set overlay in Acad. Once this is done I can send plot files to anyone that they can take to a local blueprint house and have printed.

Jpeg is much smaller than gif.
Old 06-14-2004, 06:24 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

Send me a jpeg at 300 lines per inch and I can do a plan set overlay in Acad. Once this is done I can send plot files to anyone that they can take to a local blueprint house and have printed.

Jpeg is much smaller than gif.
This is a very generous offer SoCal. I've done a few tracings in CAD like that myself and there's still a few hours labour involved even just for some basic lines. Is your offer coming from a personal intrest to possibly build one of these as well? If so it's gratifying to see a few folks that don't feel the need for pure performance to such a degree that they insist on flying winged broomhandles ALL the time! There's certainly nothing wrong with pure performance in it's place but sometimes it's nice to kick back and watch something fly that beautifies the skies by it's presence and shape, don't you think?

Anyway, I'll do a jpg scan at your preference and email it to you. PM me your email addy at your convienience.

Oh, and I chose GIF because my software will reduce the GIF file to 2 color line art. The JPG export insists on at least 256 bit color and that pumps up the file size tremendously. Is that what you reffered to?
Old 06-15-2004, 10:37 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

I'll cross check the gif to jpeg size thing. A decently crisp image is what is required however you wish to provide it. As I have a limited dial up e-mail account the image file can not be too big.

As to my intentions; my plate is never too big. I have plans that I've been saving for thirty years that I want to build and fly. Now I just need to work on that pesky time thing. Since I'm doing this for myself and it is a cad file it's just a few minutes off of that clock to make a plot file and send it out to any that are intersted.

Sometimes I will make a change or two on the structure so the design can withstand a decent high start or a soft winch lauch.

Check your PM's Think I already sent you a message.
Old 06-19-2004, 01:01 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Have the GIF's and am about 2/3rd's the way into outiling the plans with Acad. Interesting design. Going to be tricky to keep it's lines and RC it. Don't know how the heck it was aero towed as a free flight glider. Guess the nose mounted tow hook over rides the turning trim.
Old 06-19-2004, 05:42 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

There are a number of plans for this style of glider available on the market already. Look for Sunspot, Thunderking, and Leprechaun. Sunspot was originally 13 foot span ff open glider, the others about 10 foot.
Old 06-20-2004, 06:05 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

There's John Ponds' old time plan service, if he's still in business. I picked up a partial kit once for a Bowlus Albatross @120". Purdy glider!

John
Old 06-20-2004, 11:35 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

ORIGINAL: John Cole

There's John Ponds' old time plan service, if he's still in business. I picked up a partial kit once for a Bowlus Albatross @120". Purdy glider!

John
I think the AMA is either going to or is already providing a plans for sale service with Pond's plan library. Not sure of the link though. Pond himself died a few years back. His wife ran the service for a few more years but then gave the whole lot to the AMA.
Old 06-20-2004, 02:46 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

No doubt there are a tremendus amount of old timer plans "out there". As in the just mentioned case these are in storage and next to impossible to aquire. Then when you do get a copy you will find that these are not designed for the loads todays winches and some hi-starts can put on them. Even some of todays glider designs are not designed properly. (see other recent and current threads)

Sometimes it takes a considerable amount of interal structure manipulation to get an old timer design flyable. Sometimes not. When the original is traced into a decent cad program you can scale it to most any size. It is from this scaled outline that the buildable internals are derived from.

I have a small box full of old timer plans copied from the 1930's and 1940's magazines that I plan on getting to -- one of these days. We even have one of the designers of some of these plans still flying at the park -- Chuck Hollinger. He even has the original hand drawings. Been working on him to have these xeroxed.
Old 06-20-2004, 04:25 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

No doubt there are a tremendus amount of old timer plans "out there". ....Then when you do get a copy you will find that these are not designed for the loads todays winches and some hi-starts can put on them. ......
Oh so true SoCal. I have the plans for the old Cleveland King Condor (? I think that was the name, it's the one with the gull wings) and it's a disaster. Even back then a kid could easily run fast enough to rip the wings off. The plans are only good for outlines and formers. The Airhopper would/will require a lot of redesign as well but nothing like the old Cleveland one.
Old 06-23-2004, 08:38 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Oh well, I was hoping somebody knew of something scale but of a WWII era 'ish' style that was designed for RC but not so overly complex as to become an engineering project. I read in RCM a year or two ago a review of a plane, a Sling something, but didn't quite like it. It was said the Mfg. planned to produce other scale 'olde' kits but I never heard another thing about it. With all of the small, known to but a few locals type Mfg's (garage operations) Ive' read about here and other sites which I'd never heard of elsewhere, I thought that perhaps there may have been one out there that was doing kits of this type . . . I bet there is, it's just a matter of finding them. Sooner or later, someday . . . Still though, I'm glad to see there's others out there who like the style of the 'golden age' planes of yore.

I know Europen Mfg's make these kind of kits or have plans for such planes but as those Europen designs all seem meant for the slope they all have that 'lead-sled' wing loading that I'm trying to avoid. None appear to be light enough for enjoyable thermaling. All the ones Ive' seen have 15-20+oz/sq. ft. loadings at a minimum. Does anyone know of a web site that deals in these kits? Maybe they have something that'll fit the bill after all. Thanks,
Rick K.
Old 06-24-2004, 12:49 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Wow, that plane looks exactly like the Super Soarer. I converted an already built free flight version into R/C a few years ago. There's a story and pictures of the finished plane on my website...

http://home.earthlink.net/~jaffee/super-soarer.html
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Old 06-24-2004, 12:55 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Sorry your scale idea got a little side tracked. Didn't think that the free flight design was going to fit your request but it's still going to be a fun project.

Now back to your request on a pre WW2 scale sailplane that is hi-startable. As there is very little demand for this type of RC sailplane or you would see significant production. Instead we see slope monsters that are predominate in Europe. True there are about twenty scale die hards here in the states but even these do mostly aero tows as trying to winch a 1/4 and even 1/2 scale monster is tenuous at best.

In a way I take a bit of offence at your reference to garage manufacturers. There is not a great deal of profit in specialized RC sailplane manufacturing. Even Sal at North East has collected most of his products from small one or two man shops that could not make it alone.

About the only way to do a 100 to 120 inch stand off scale high startable RC sailplane is to do it yourself. Or find someone that has plans that you can build from. Either way it is still an engineering project.
Old 06-24-2004, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Rick, you can make it as much or little of a project at you wish. Simplify the wing construction a bit and use an epoxy and fiberglass over carved foam for the fuselage and it becomes a fairly simple project that is no more complex than any other model sailplane. Don't want to work with the fiberglass or super curved fuselage shapes? There were quite a few that used simple shapes that can be built up with flat sheet or sticks. The one you're thinking of I believe is a Slingsby trainer perhaps. There was also the Wolf out of Austria and a couple of others that may fit what you want. Let me see what's in my Vintage Sailplanes book. But working from the 3 views in there will require a plan be drawn up.

There was a spiffy little free flight glider of the Wolf on the 'net. I have the file around somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. It's a much simpler build and may be just what you want.
Old 06-25-2004, 02:42 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Rick,

I have several plans and kits available for 40s and 50s designed American sailplanes from Schweizer. Right here in Kansas City from my very own garage where I work 1/2 time and my office and computer where I work another time and a 1/2 we are producing some of the sweetest little r/c gliders and sailpanes with parts all made in America.

I am taking orders for 1:5 scale Schweizer SGS 1-26 (96" span) plans or short kits, long kits or ARF with lightweight fiberglass fuse and foam wings. I can also ship you a set of plans for the 1-26 in 2 meter size. If you build it from either scale plans you can build as light as you are able to meet your wing loading goal.

We also have a Schweizer SGS 1-36 T-tail high aspect ship (111" span) (the red fuse in photo). Wing loading is fine for themalling and with these ships a little extra weight translates into penetration, speed and finding more thermals. Its L/D that is more important. (We are doing this one in an all EPP foamie too but its top secret so don't tell anyone!)

Or if you can wait a couple of months we will have the 1:6 scale SGS 2-32 (114" span) and the 1:5 SGS 1-23 high performance high aspect (120" span) for your thermalling pleasure.

After all of that I think I'll start on the 2-33 and the 1-34 and then start scaling everything up to 1:4 and 1:3 scale.

By then I move out to the barn.

Like the rest of what comes out of my garage, most of these will be availabe as full or partial kits, have availabe fiberglass fuselages and fully sheeted foam wings with end grain balsa and carbon spars, cut out and capped ailerons, scale dive brake kits in 1/32 glass sheet, full scale color instrument panel kits, side hinged canopies with latches, functional scale tow releases, optional full scale built up fabric covered control surface laser cut parts kits with instructions, several full color vinyl graphics kits for TG-3A and other color schemes, full scale detail documentation, complete building instructions and documentation, web access for discussion forums and construction/trim/flying tips, etc. and full factory warranty against defects, full support after the sale, money back guarantee and I can't remember what else.

Man that is one busy dude in his garage. Yeah, we do factory tours. Bring a six pack, a couple of gliders, we'll sand on some parts for a while and head out to Wilson Lake and tear up the slopes, stop back home and do some aerotows, bungee up in a few cowpastures and head on back to the barn!!!!!

tm
tmrcsaiplanes.com......
bookmark it
order now
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:09 AM
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Rick K
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

You got me all wrong about garage Mfg.s, I wasn't implying anything bad about them, you know as well as I here in So. CA. it's just about every guy's dream to have such a business . . . even one that just makes only a little bit more dough then we spend on our hobbies and maybe even enough help supplement our cost of living bills. Be it fooling around with collector cars, model planes or fishing equip. Producing limited run/demand products, stuff the big guys don't bother with or have the forsight to see. As in Apple computer's start up for example. . . in a garage.

If one is looking for something 'esoteric' that is to say out of the main stream these are the people you need to find. The guys who are doing those things out of their garage or one of the little 500-1K Sq. Ft. shops that are so common around here and elsewhere I'd guess, that kind of Op. I was hoping to find . . . and from Martin's reply I think I may have found such a place.
Rick K
Old 06-25-2004, 04:22 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Martin, you look like the man with the plan (pun intended) I was hoping to find. I'll check out your site and see what you have to offer. Wouldn't mind the 'tour' either but don't think I'll be that way anytime soon . . . but if you ever want to see our little city of light . . .

Rick K
Old 06-25-2004, 08:51 PM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Been there done that Rick. Lived in Lancaster for 30 years learning airframes, rockets and sonic booms.

Guys and girl (I really did send plans out to an rc girl), send me your shipping addresses offline in PM to tom at lightfastgraphics dot com and I will send you your kits, plans or a complete price and parts list of everything we offer.

Tom
Old 03-31-2005, 11:39 AM
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Default RE: Scale olde non-lead sled

Ok its been a busy year and I haven't posted back our progress, sorry.

Here is the latest and I think it qualifies for "golden age-ish":

I am putting the finishing touches on the Schweizer SGS 1-7 plans for 1:6 scale and once I laser cut the parts and proof it I will immediately bump it up to 1:3 and start cutting in that scale. If anyone is interested in 1:6, 1:5 or 1:4, I can increase the size and send them to you for scratch building and let you make the adustments in stock size.

At 1:6 the fuselage is constructed with open 1/8" plywood bulkheads which simulate the welded steel construction of the original and the larger main 3 fuselage longerons are 3/16" diameter carbon fiber tubes for strength followed by the rest of the truss members and stringers of 1:8" diameter dowel. The idea was to build an extremely light structure approaching as closely as possible a true scale representation of the original. I've used the 3021 foil to allow for good penetration and make up for the frontal area drag created by the large fuselage cross section. I think it'll be fun in both scales, but a real show-stopper in 1:3.

Also have the Schweizer 1-1 Primary glider plans available as well. Pick your size and email or PM me for more information.

Check out pictures and three-views of the full scale here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/vincent.besa...seum/index.htm

tm
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