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Cloud Bound 4

Old 08-12-2004, 06:36 PM
  #26  
hattend
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Mike, if you start yours, it may (key word: MAY) give me incentive to start mine. I have another project on the table right now but it wouldn't be the first time that I set it aside to start in on something else.

Post the building pics ;-)

Don
Old 08-12-2004, 07:44 PM
  #27  
McLeodAviation
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi Don,

You should also build your Cloud Bound 4! It would be fun comparing the progress of our models. Go for it!!!!! I also set my last project aside to build the Cloud Bound 4!

I will post pictures when I begin construction this weekend.

Cloudbound, Mike
Old 08-12-2004, 08:36 PM
  #28  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

I'm removing the covering to take out some weight in the tail section - by various methods - it's now over-built because I didn't see Ray's tips until I was done with the fuselage.

Oh, another couple things -
1) It may have been just my setup, but the pushrod-tube assembly provided in the kit gave a vague response near center (around 1/8" total play). I replaced with CF pushrods.
2) Take some time to think about how your going to tie the control to the tail pieces, my setup is ok, but I think there something better out there.
3) The joiner between the tail sections and the fuselage are not that obvious, take some time here to make it look good - there will be shaping required.
Old 08-13-2004, 12:50 PM
  #29  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

That 16oz nose weight is not suprising when you consider "arm-moment' balance. Lets say the fuse is 20" long from the CG and the nose 5" . . . if you over-build the tail just two oz. it's going to take 8oz in the nose to balance, tail 25" nose weight needed 10oz. The formula being: tail distance from CG in inches X weight / nose distance from CG = nose wt. needed. The closer you have to place the weight to the CG in the nose the more it's going to take. If you can, use a higher capacity (heavier) Rx battery as far fwd. as you can. If you have to add weight it might as well be useful weight rather than just 'dead-weight' to have to haul around.
Rick K
Old 08-13-2004, 03:19 PM
  #30  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Back again, After thinking it over I wasn't so sure my formula was correct, I learned it 29 years ago as a 'Warrent officer flight training canadate' in the Air Force. Decided to prove the equation with the help of a yard-stick and some 1/4oz. fishing sinkers . . . My memory served me well, it works. I guess I just thought it over too long, to the point of confusing myself as to it being a valid equation, Lord knows math wasn't and isn't my best subject and math is one of those that if not used is losed. My little girls just went back to school last week, Yikes! . . .ALGEBRA . . . in the third grade????? and she'll expect me to help her!!! OH NOOOO!
Rick K

As one may see, spelling was another subject that I wasn't/isn't so hot in either.
Old 08-13-2004, 07:53 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Guess I won't worry about balancing until my CB4 is finished. I thought about making the nose longer but will build as on the plans. If any extra nose weight is needed I will start by adding a larger battery pack like Rick said. You never know, I might even have some very long flights on a day with great thermals. Sure don't want my receiver battery running low!

There was a part rubber banded with my fuselage parts and I didn"t know where it goes? It is not on the plans! I emailed Skybench and Ray said it is an optional fuselage stiffner for fuselage bottom.

Ray also said he is starting a four week vacation today and will not answer any more emails until September 12th. Hopefully I won't have any more questions before then!

Cloudbound, Mike
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Old 08-14-2004, 01:38 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Oh No! PICTURES!

That does it, I'm going to have to dig my CB4 box out of the kit stack and start cleaning for a build.

Thanks Mike (grrrr )
Don
Old 08-14-2004, 01:53 PM
  #33  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Happy Saturday Mike, Yeah there's not much use in worrying now about it except when building the tail keep the weight issue in mind. As Ray recommened I epoxyed 1/2" X 6" .007 carbon fiber strips in the 'wrist' of the tail placing it with 3" fwd & rwd of the LE of the Horz stab. on all four sides. I've had fuse spliting problems in the past with other planes in this area so agreed with Ray on this one even though I know it's going to add weight I don't want, but as I don't want the tail to break off after a couple of flights I did it.

I've had more than a few flights of longer than an hour (sore neck) and pushed my luck farther than I should have many times. I usualy chickened out at 75min. (600mah batt. that tested out to 85min. duration) but always wished I had more battery, easier on the nerves!

I just got a 'bonk' sound from my computer that tells me you may have just posted, soon as I'm done I'll take a look. Your bench's back edge looks just like mine! When I set it up I hung a 5' X 5' peg-board behind and above it and put a 5' X 10" shelf 10" above the bench also to keep the clutter down and the tools off the bench . . . now I have two stories of junk sitting there and all kinds of stuff hanging on the peg board, about 40% having nothing to do with the hobby and still have a bunch of stuff on the supposed work surface. I think even if one had a bench twenty feet long, five feet wide you still would end up with around 2sq. ft. of usable work space. Every once in awhile I take a half hour or so to straighten everything out.

Oh, last night I happend to take a look at my fuse, to my surprise it's 36" from CG to tail. That'd means for my example of 2oz. of over weight in the tail it'd need 14.4oz in the nose to balance!!! That means that you'd have 1lb of extra weight on my supposed 60 something oz. plane . . . brings it to 135% of the design weight of my plane. Not good if your into 'floaters' as I am or very 'healthy' for the plane upon landing.

Rick K
P.S. I just figured out that's it's not my spelling that's so bad, my cordless keyboard needs new batts. After two years on this set I guess so. I knew I wasn't that bad.
Old 08-16-2004, 03:29 PM
  #34  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi guys, I guess what I was trying to stress is back in the 'old days' when these kits were designed they did everything possible to keep the weight down to minimize the sink rate and maximize the 'float' factor. That meant they used the minimal structure and materials that would still do the job.

Iv'e seen many a wing fail on launch or tail break on landing because the plane exceeded the design weight, overstressing the structure. These planes at the time were state of the art, all out competition craft then flown by expert pilots not 'Sunday flyers' flown by casual pilots. Thats why with Ray's Skybench aerotech versions of these classics he's made so many Mods. to improve durability. I think he knows his stuff in that dept. and wouldn't recommend doing more there, he's done it for you.

The problem with over weight tails is more than just having to add so much extra nose weight to balance, but how much additional stress that extra weight puts on the ever problematic wrist section of the fuse just foward of the tail. Small cross-section with huge torsional load. Every plane that I ever had a structural failure with the failure was there even with a moderately rough landing, not a cartwheeling, ground loop type of crash landing. Well take it for what it's worth.
Rick K
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Old 08-16-2004, 07:04 PM
  #35  
McLeodAviation
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi everyone,

I had a very busy weekend and have much to do this week!!! I haven't had time to work on my Cloud Bound 4. I did study the plans and parts some more.

I'm happy to hear Don may start building his CB4. We can help each other with construction. This is a hard kit to build. No construction photos makes me confused.

Like Rick said, study all parts well before gluing.

I like the original open construction of the rear fuselage section. This looks great with transparent monokote. One of the Skybench modifications is to plank the sides of the fuse with sheet balsa. Don't think I will do this to my model and keep the original open construction appearance.

On the plan, the front fuselage sides have the open areas filled with 1/4 sheet balsa. Think I might cut out my forward fuse sides from solid 1/4" sheet. This is much easier.

Cloudbound, Mike
Old 08-16-2004, 08:56 PM
  #36  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Good evening Mike, Isn't that the way is always is, when I'm iching to build there always seems to be a million things to do around the house and my very own personel 'foreman' (also known as my wife) is a rather stern taskmaster as my mother before her was. I remember as a Kid how I'd be thinking 'humm, fine day to go to the beach" my mom would think it was a fine day for gardening and you can guess who the 'gardener' was to be. Thats another reason why my kit is taking me so long.
Rick K
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Old 08-17-2004, 10:29 AM
  #37  
hattend
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

ORIGINAL: McLeodAviation

I'm happy to hear Don may start building his CB4. We can help each other with construction. This is a hard kit to build. No construction photos makes me confused.

Cloudbound, Mike
Yep, I finished up joining/sanding the wing panels on my St Croix LongEze and that only took me about a month. What a PITA. The CB4 box is now sitting on the building table and I looked at the plans last night. I'm probably not going to get to it until the weekend (if then). I'm getting married in 17 days so I have a lot more important things on my mind. After that I have the honeymoon and the Reno Air Races.

Chances are it will be the end of September/early October before I start construction. You'll probably be done by then.

I'm like Rick K...only different...LOL Priorities Priorities

Don
Old 08-18-2004, 01:03 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Rick, Thanks again for all tips and suggestions.

Don, Congratulations on your upcoming marriage!

I will post construction pictures soon.

Cloudbound, Mike
Old 08-23-2004, 02:38 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi,

I worked on my Cloud Bound 4 this weekend! I completed the fuselage sides.

I made my forward fuselage sections from solid 1/4" balsa sheet. I made a templete off the plan. This is much easier than the original construction method. The original method used 1/4" stick cross braces and the open areas were filled with 1/4" sheet. The end result was a solid 1/4" sheet.

Cloudbound, Mike
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:42 PM
  #40  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi Mike, Sorry I haven't replied sooner . . . Had a major computer problem that took me all week to figure out (system wouldn't boot right) so this is my first time back since last friday. Anyway, looks like you're moving right along, I'll bet you'll be finshed long before me even though all I have to do is build my wings. But what with being Mr. Mom, the baby, the PTA/'room-parent' stuff I do down at the kid's school plus going to college full-time myself . . . and the usual house stuff, well it doesn't leave much time for anything else. When it does I don't feel like building much somehow . . . I'm just to tired lately. School started for all of us three weeks ago and I'm still not phys used to it yet. Or am I getting a little 'long in the tooth' for it? Gee, isn't getting older fun (48) . . . poor eyesight, high blood pressure, diabetes . . . and this is just for starters, who knows what's next, and all this stuff has happend in the past ten Mo. !!!
Rick K
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Old 08-27-2004, 03:34 AM
  #41  
McLeodAviation
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi Rick,

I'm happy to here back from you and glad your back on line. I was wondering why you had not replied! I own my first computer and have been on line for about one year. No problems to date although will happen sooner or later. Hopefully later!

Health and family come first, then there is model airplanes!

Cloud Bound 4 update,

I decided not to use fuselage modifications listed on the Skybench website. I am using mostly the original construction method plus a few modifications of my own. My modifications simplify construction and add extra strength. The appearance and dimensions of my model will be identical to the original Cloud Bound 4.
I added two 1/4" balsa formers inside my fuselage. One in front of the wing and one behind. This makes the fuselage easier to build and stronger. I am not using Ray's recommended 1/64 ply doublers. I don't think they are necassary. I will fiberglass the inside of the fuselage for additional strength.

Cloudbound, Mike
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Old 08-27-2004, 03:58 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

ORIGINAL: McLeodAviation

I will fiberglass the inside of the fuselage for additional strength.
Why the inside of the fuselage?
I would personally fiberglass the outside and than paint it. That would be a nicer finish I think.
Any specific reason for fiberglassing the inside?



Bart
Old 08-27-2004, 04:31 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi,

The instructions for this sailplane say to glass the inside cabin area with lightest glass cloth you can find, and says to use a liberal amount of resin around the wing rods.

Also says to fiberglass the outside with light cloth before painting.

I will glass inside around the wing rods with some medium cloth and glass the outside with lightest cloth.

Instructions for this sailplane are vague. Attached a picture of the complete instructions.

Cloudbound, Mike
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Old 08-27-2004, 04:52 AM
  #44  
barto
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi again,

I read you reply and a part of the instructions. Here's what I would do, I'm not a pro but this is just my opinion. If someone else has a better idea please speak up.

Alright, first of all, I wouldn't fiberglass the inside of the fuselage. I think fiberglassing the outside gives plenty of strength. Fiberglassing the inside only makes the fuse heavier. [link=http://www.airfieldmodels.com/information_source/how_to_articles_for_model_builders/construction/apply_fiberglass_finish/index.htm]Here's[/link] a link that explains everything you need to know how to fiberglass a model. I have to tell you I have never done it myself but I think the how-to is a very good help.

Second, I would mix some micro balloons with 30 min. epoxy and put some of that around the wing rods to make sure they are firmly in place. Make sure you sand the copper bars to make them rough otherwise the epoxy won't stick very long to it.
If you would like some additional strength around the wing rods I would make a doubler and glue it in place using epoxy. (Don't use resin, 30 min. epoxy has more strength).


That's my thought about it, hope this helps you a little.



Bart
Old 08-27-2004, 09:30 AM
  #45  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi Bart, That's a good idea about the 'Micro-ballons'. Another tip that I haven't heard of anyone mention anywhere in quite a while is to use 'baking-soda' when CAing loose fitting joints or when you want to reinforce a joint . . . you just put the 'soda' around the joint or fill in the gap like you would use putty (but DRY) and hit it with thin, instant CA. The soda soaks/wicks up the CA like crazy! Be careful though, this is a very, VERY good way to include part of yourself (parts of hands) in the structure . . . and will provide an extra strong bond, be it balsa or flesh. Another good reason to always keep some acetone or CA debonder withen reach on your bench, I DO!. As Iv'e learned from more than a few 'sticky' stiuations over the years: "Better to have and not need than to need and not have"
Well time to get the kids to school . . . Push re-wind, push play . . . just the beginning of another day for Rick K, SUPER-MOM!
Have a good day
Rick K
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Old 08-30-2004, 12:33 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi, Thanks for the tips and cool link. I have a bottle of micro ballons on my workbench, along with a million other things. I also think only the outside needs to be glassed and a little reinforcement added inside around the wing rods.

I worked on my Cloud Bound 4 many hours this weekend. This fuselage with the rear open structure is very time consuming. Below are four pictures of my progress.

PICTURE 1, Top 1/2" block has been cut to fit and contour sanded. I have pre-cut most of the top and bottom fuselage braces.
PICTURE 2, Can't see in picture but top block is glued in place. Rear fuselage is now clamped and ready for upper cross braces.
PICTURE 3, Upper cross braces finished
PICTURE 4, Fuselage turned upside down and bottom cross braces installed.

Cloudbound, Mike
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Old 08-30-2004, 03:17 PM
  #47  
Rick K
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi Mike, looks like your'e moving right along. Iv'e always hated doing those open stick fuses. I guess because I feel compeled to find the exact angle for every piece and then using my Craftsman disc/belt sander try to reproduce them, the angles and lengths exactly . . . mistakes abound and frustratin sets in. Even with all of the kits Iv'e built getting the two halves to line up correctly/squarely had always proved difficult for me. I have often ended up with a 'banana' shaped fuse when observed from above. I bought one of those magnetic building boards for which I only use for that, joining the fuse. halves step. The printed 1/4" grid helps greatly it ensuring things end up square when held in place with the magnets. I finaly came to the concluision that when one uses glues such as epoxy or alpheitic resin glue it dries at different rates depending upon it's thickness. That plus the different times of application results in a 'pulling' effect . . . ie: as the glue dries it shrinks. If you, as usual practice apply glue to one side then the other the first has a 'head-start' on setting up and will pull towards that side, warping the structure that looked square at first. Remember the thinner the application the quicker things start to happen, so although you mixed it at the same time as soon as you apply (thin it up) it it starts to speed up the catalitic processs and therefore shrinks faster (pulls harder) than a layer applied even only a minute or two later. The only way I've found to counter-act this effect is to be sure everything is held firmly in place, no wiggle room. Well I THINK that's what's happening, I'm not a molecular scientist or anything like that, it's what I think is happening.
Rick K
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Old 08-30-2004, 03:39 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi,

One more picture of rear framework. Feels very strong!

Skybench recommends sheeting {covering the framework} the fuselage sides with 1/16" balsa for extra strength. The CB4 kit comes with lazer cut 1/16" sides for this. I want to keep the original open construction look and will not use them.

If you look at the Skybench website and pictures of Ray's Cloud Bound 4 construction, you can see he is not placing the fuselage side framework diagonaly like the plans. He is using a much simpler and weaker horizontal placement. With his recommended 1/16" fuse sides this would be very strong.

Cloudbound, Mike
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Old 08-30-2004, 04:40 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi Rick, This is one of the few RC airplanes I have built with open stick construction. You right, takes alot of effort to get the angles sanded for proper fit. I sanded too much off a few and had to recut new ones. Needs to be very accurate so the joints will be strong. I used 5 minute epoxy for all the framework. I must have mixed up little amounts 50 times or more! Seems to be holding straight and true.

Next I will be bending the front section to match the nose block and carve the balsa canopy. My kit has a hardwood nose block. This is strange! Ray must have included this to add some nose weight. Sure is going to be hard to sand! I am considering swapping for a balsa block.

Cloudbound, Mike
Old 08-31-2004, 01:45 AM
  #50  
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Default RE: Cloud Bound 4

Hi,

I decided to cut a new nose block from hard balsa block. The included hardwood block didn't match the plan and would have been very hard to sand.

Cloudbound, Mike
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